Dear Doug: You are welcome!!
The other two alternatives ( best ones ) that they have are:
- HO MC and
- MM cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregad: I almost agree with all your statements but: 80-100 db S/N ratio ( unweighted ), there is no posibility to achieve this spec on and MC high gain phonopreamp.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Shane: I have a great respect for Tim De Paravancini and for their products but here the issue is not on the name of the designer or the design it self ( SS or tubes ): the issue is that any ( good design ) high gain phonopreamp that use SUTs for achieve that high gain with low noise do more harm to the quality signal that comes from the cartridge that a high gain phonopreamp ( good design ) that don't use SUTs ( active gain designs ).
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Shane: I forgot. About that guy on TNT I can tell you ( with all respect )that he has many misconceptions about SUTs and high gain phonopreamps, I almost can tell you that he does not has experience on HG PP designs. The Accuphase that he named means nothing, but take a look to the pictures of those SUTs ( where he is " very experienced " ) and look for those kind/quality of the wires and the kind of RCA connectors that he is using: Incredible!!!!!
+++++ " . Bass lines are muddy then and drum players seem to play like if they are drunk. " +++++
This statement confirm what I think: that he has very little experience about!!!
Do you trust in his opinion?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul says, This is what is all about. If we can grow up in our audio hobby then we are on the " right road ". Don't you think? My answer is, No, that's not what it is all about. If growing up means becoming as dogmatic and narrow-minded as you are regarding this issue, then I don't want to grow up. One thing I truly love about this hobby is that there is no single "right" road. There seems to be multiple solutions for any problem with each solution having its own sets of pros/cons. I may actually agree with you regarding transformers. It's not a particularly elegant design solution. But that dosen't mean I reject there use as a MC step up device. In some situations they are a great solution. As way of an analogy, push rod activated camshafts is primitive when compared to chain driven overhead designs, but it is still possible to produce outstanding engines using the the primitive design element. The talent of the designer can triumph over the technology. And that's not a fact, but simply my opinion. |
Dear Gregm: +++++ " . But let's face it: as Gregadd seems to imply, a good tranny, while expensive, is nowhere near the cost and rarerity of an outstanding fully active 80-100db riaa. " +++++
Well, a Manley Steelhead or a Lamm one are not inexpensive units: both use SUTs and , here, you have to pay for it. Yes, a good Phonopreamp with out SUTs is more expensive.
+++++ " If what Raul is to make sense, he is using a very well stabilised active circuit and he's using his components in their optimum operating region. That's difficult and painstaking to design and implement ... " ++++
Absolutely, that's why is so expensive and it is not only a money issue it is deep knowledge about.
We love music and we love to care about its home reproduction. We love to have almost perfect targets about and we love and take the hard challenge: it is exaiting, fun and extremly emotive/emotional experiences about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregad: +++++ " This means that we need a preamp with about 60-80db gain in the phono stage.Agree Y/N?
Optimally we also need about 80-100db S/N ratio(unweighted). AgreeY/N? " +++++
I think that you forgot to the most important characteristic in a Phonopreamp: we need a phonopreamp because the PP is the only audio device that can reproduce in the right way the cartridge signal due to mimic the inverse RIAA eq. The specs here is, which is the RIAA eq. deviation?: I think that has to be in no more than 1 db ( +,- 0.5 db ), ours is 0.02 db.
Btw, our S/N ratio ( MC ) is 82.5 db A weighted refered to 0.5 mv.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Clio09: +++++ " Both these designers make outstanding phono stages and I'm sure they would never recommend something that is proven to compromise the sound of their designs. " +++++
These gentleman, like many others, make their designs with a price target and they make their design inside that price target. This " limited/inadequate " price target put a lot of compromises in the quality sound reproduction of the audio devices and in this case they have to make compromises in the quality sound reproduction using SUTs. Of course that they can do better but they choose their trade-offs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul. I would not trust his wide ranging opinion that transformers are the only way to load a MC cartridge. Just the same I won't believe you that all SUT's are bad.
I think as a few of the guys in the thread here have stated - it all depends on the design, the listener's musical preference and current tonal qualities of his system and budget.
My mind is open on both sides of the fence and from what I have heard both are legitimate choices someone can make for their own musical enjoyment.
cheers Shane |
Dear Shane: I never said thet the SUTs are bad, what I said is that any SUT design at any price do severe degradation to the quality of the signal that comes from the cartridge and that a PP design with out SUTs is a lot better that one with SUTs.
+++++ " I think as a few of the guys in the thread here have stated - it all depends on the design, the listener's musical preference and current tonal qualities of his system and budget. " +++++
If you want to use it like equalizers, fine it is up to you or up to any one but trying to cover faulties in the audio chain through SUTs is a double mistake!!!!!!!
The transformers exist before the LO cartridges and that transformers were not designed taking in account the LO cartridges. Someone take the transformers, like a patch, and introduce to us in audio: very bad play.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Well in Luke Manleys' defense he clearly is using the transformer to lower the noise floor. Go to his website and check for yourself. I have stated before that frequency response especially in electronics remains the most overated spec ever. He does claim s/n of 100db. |
Gregadd. What does Luke Manley have to do with this thread. VTL don't even make a phono stage.
You must be confusing Eva Anna's Manley company which makes the steelhead. IMO, it is very quiet and has great dynamics - I can see why people like it, but to me sounded too hifi. |
I was referring to the father (David?). He designs the pruducts while the kids run the company.
My point is that a transformer can yield a lower noise floor than a comparable high gain preamp.
It osunds hofi? that same criticism was made of rhe vendetta. |
Dear Gregad: Two things, first my mistake about RIAA eq. deviation, it has to say: 0.1 db instead 1 db. ( big difference ).
About the Manley S/N you have to compare with the fixed output at 65 db gain: 70 db.
About the Vendetta, that was a criticism in the very early models ( many years ago ). The actual CTC ( that inbody the Vendetta ) is very good.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
sorry about the typos.no pun intended. |
Dear Onhwy61: +++++ " If growing up means becoming as dogmatic and narrow-minded as you are regarding this issue, then I don't want to grow up. " +++++
I don't think I'm dogmatic and certainly not narrow-minded.
In the last 10-12 years we try/test different alternatives for our AHG PP: SS, tubes, hybrid, Fets, Bipolars, Suts, no Suts, etc, etc.
Can you call this narrow-minded and dogmatic?
Now, what is all about?. You agree with me about SUTs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: +++++ " I think Raul should build a prototype and send it to me for evaluation. " *****
I'm thinking very serious about and I think that I will take the " Gregad word " for build a prototype of the Phonopreamp and share/send with some of you this unique experience. Interested??
It is an expensive prototype but I will do!!! Yes.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul
Me for one will be happy to be a beta tester and try out your phono stage and let the gon know about my experiences. If I like I will buy it.
Me I have gone back to the Pass Xono for the moment after trying many other phono stages.
email me seperately if you like
cheers Shane |
Raul My suggestion that you build a prototype of your preamp was somewhat "tongue in cheek"(I don't know if that expression translates into Spanish)given the spec's and the fact that it is a vendetta clone, it would be worht it.
Personally I wish someone could "soup up" My SP 14 with varialble load resistance and capacitance. Also with the latest elctronic components.
Mostly because I like its straight wire with gain approach and the controls on the front panel.
Sorry, Downunder I suggested, it so I'm first. |
Gregadd.
Would you buy the phono stage if you liked it?? I would.
It is not a cheap unit. :) |
Downunder-you certainly have thrown down the gauntlet!
Raul-Never enter into a conditional contract based on the customers satisfaction!:-)! |
Gregadd, no guts no glory!
this could be the first step to a real priced Boulder phono stage beater!! |
Dear Gregad: Our Phonopreamp is in no way a Vendetta clone ( with all my respect to JC. ), is is a very different design.
Stay tunned.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Shane is right: it is not a cheap unit.
Our Phonopreamp are in " true " three preamps: one MC, one MM and one Line level stage, all independent. Now, the three are true balanced input to output, this means that in reality they are: 6 single ended stages!!!!!
In other words: six preamps in one integrated unit!!!!!!
Right now I'm out of home in a business trip. I return at the middle of the next week and I would like to make a plan for the " hearing " of that Phonopreamp.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul |
Dear gregad and Downunder: I would like to know your address. Btw, if any one is interested about please e-mail your address.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I e-mailed my address off line |
Raul. I have emailed you off line.
BTW, now that I have my Pass Xono back I am lot happier. The SUT's that I have listened to - EAR 834 and manley steelhead have been very dynamics but have had a sort of unnatural high end and rather loose bass with the EAR.
cheers |
Along the lines of Dougdeacon's comment, the availability of a $800 SUT may make it possible for a financially-challanged audiophile to use a superior MC cartridge, that would be out of the question if he had to buy a $5000 preamp. One must consider the cartridge/SUT combination in this tradeoff. |
I want to be one to test and report on the Raul phono stage. |
