Razmika, agree that buyer/seller have to be in a mutually benefiting relationship in order to persevere. The pricing issue I brought up, since it relates as to how their initial selling price was yet again increased--just months after released.
Then, there's also some quality issues I had with not one, but both pairs of speakers I owned. Thankfully, my responsible dealer took good care of and had them replaced with brand new pairs--both time. Magico was a young and upstart company then, I'm sure things have improved since.
Please not view any of the above as any form of bashing--no hidden agenda here, except to share my personal experiences with fellow members, and hopefully, a constructive message to the company as well.
Let's leave it as that, and hand the thread back to the new much improved Q3.. |
Rasmika,
If your "good deal" quote is referring to my post about seeing a Magico V2 sell for less than $10K, I only meant that it is a great speaker in absolute terms and represents a particularly good value relative to other speakers available for that amount of money, used or new, IMO. The market is dealerships and Audiogon and everything in between. I came close to buying the V2 before I bought my Mini II and I was willing to pay a lot more than that $10K.
I agree with Bvdiman that the Q series may represent an even better value than the older Magico speakers because of the incredible technology and sound they offer. The M5/Q5 for example and the Q1 will cost less than the last price for the Mini II and is supposed to sound better. Unfortunately, I can't afford a pair.
These are extreme prices but so are luxury cars, watches etc. |
Bvdiman,
I am on the side of good sound, service and value. It has to work for both the buyer and the seller. These are trying times to all. I am not saying that changing prices often is a good thing, but I am not in favor of price gouging either... |
This thread is about Magico, let's leave it at that. I'm just raising one concern as a 'consumer', and that I have no problem whatsoever with their pricing/value which I think is way cool--having a new product which killed the previous flagship at only 60% of the price (Q5-M5). What I'm trying to convey here is that, if only they could work their costing right from the beginning it would be better for all. Most people have to plan for their audio outlay too.
Speaking of value.. bought my Mini2, 28k sold @19k (3yrs ago). V3, 25k sold @11k (recent).. Bottom line, no value is good value in things audio--unless of course you buy it used.
Btw.Are you a dealer or speaking on behalf of one? You sure don't seem to be on buyer's side. |
We all know there are some products with much more wiggling room then other. It is odd to me that people feel they got a "good deal" on a heavily discounted product only because the MSRP was inflated to begin with. Many audio companies are using these methods as marketing tools.
I dont know Bvdiman, I have better thing to do then haggle my way into a better discount. I try to stay away from these kinds of product. I like to think that the people I am dealing with will do the right things and stay away from price gouging to begin with. |
Thinking about Q3 will there be a Q2 as people are dumping V2?? |
An educated and wise buyer would aim for both. |
>>Bearing in mind that most consumers would rather be faced with discount than uncertainty and re-curring price increases
Maybe, but one can argue that an educated buyer would rather know he got the best deal there is rather then the best deal he manage to negotiate. |
Btw.I also tend to think that their current Q offerings, relative to performance, have far better value than that of their previous. |
Razmika, fully understood your point. But it has been re-curring and one which I have personally faced myself three times. First, the M6, which I ended up not buying.. Was initially quoted by the dealer priced south of $90k, got back 2months later, was told that it has just been increased to 120k. After saving enough to take the plunge (3months), yet again was told that they now (then) have the new improved carbon version as their midrange drivers, but with new rrp of 145-150k!--I've since then stopped thinking about them, very glad I did. Now, the Mini2 and V3 I did buy, since I liked them enough and thought their increments--'money wise'--still tolerable.
Bearing in mind that most consumers would rather be faced with discount than uncertainty and re-curring price increases, I would have to agree with you on this point :
"Perhaps Magico should change their margin structure, so they can absorb fluctuation in COGS more often." |
Bvdiman and Ack,
I do some work in the trading community, so let me give you perhaps a different perspective. Prices of commodities like Alum and Copper have doubled in the past 18 months alone. Similar situation with carbon fiber. The price of neodymium has risen to RMB 1.4 million per ton from RMB 100,000 per ton since the 2009. That is %1400!! In the last 6 months alone, neodymium have risen %400. Combine that with the weak dollar and you have yourself a hack of a volatility and not much buying power. Not here to defend anyone, I am just saying the way they are built, Magicos are basically a commodity. In all fairness to them, it was made clear to me by the distributor here in HK, back in Feb, that $34K was an introductory price. According to him, they try to keep their margins to minimum so they can offer the value they do. That is one pricing option. The other will be the Tidal or so many others for that matter. Inflate the MSRP stratospherically, and discount it more, or less, depending on your COGS fluctuation.
Perhaps Magico should change their margin structure, so they can absorb fluctuation in COGS more often. I donÂ’t see too many people complain about the truly outrages prices of some of their competitors. |
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Did you listen to them with the Boulders? |
Q3 sounded wonderful very dynamic great speed great bass etc.This being said i dont think they are broken in yet takes 500 hrs i dont think any dealer has over 500hrs i could be wrong.They do sound a little metalic maybe because they are not fully broken in yet.They are the best speaker under $50,000 i think. |
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I was lucky to find a heavily discounted used pair of Mini II's. If one needs to be on the bleeding edge, buy the Q's now. Otherwise, enjoy what you have and wait. Look at the prices of V3, M5, Mini II right now. I saw a pair of V2's selling below $10K a short while ago. That was a great deal.
The Q1 should climb to over $30K after a good review as it is supposed to be much better than the Mini II which last sold for $32,500. The Q2 will end up in the high $30's (think TAD CR1) and the Q3 will be $45-50K in a year. It's all about what the market will support and these are very good speakers compared to their equally priced competition, IMO. Magico is pushing the technology. |
Going to hear Q3 at Ears Nova in NYC. |
Hi Ack,I agree they always raise the prices did so twice on my MINI 2s.Thats some price jump!! |
For long time followers of Magico, these post reviews increments shouldn't be much of a surprise anymore. Been happening ever since their original M6 days, Mini1 & 2, V3.. I have voiced this concern to my dealer and over at one of JV's site in the past. Also, in one Magico's thread here which had mysteriously vanished.
A fellow member then said that their price would be in the low 30s, but as I predicted correctly that once it hits the market following some star studded reviews it would have to be close to 40ish bracket. Just had me wondering, after so long, can't this company get their math right from the start for once. Hopefully so for their upcoming Q1, Q2... |
I am seriously ticked off about this price increase so soon, to ride the rave wave, as was the case with the Q5 as well... |
Better jump on them now price going up to $39,500 Sept 1st. |
I had the V3 and now I have the Q5. I think the V3 is
a very good speaker wth a very transparent sound.
They also need a powerful amplifier to get the best.
The Q5 are in another class. They are simply fantastic
and the improvement of the bass and the general image is very
high. I drive them with Spectral 30ss and 360 mono, Mit Matrix
cables and Esoteric K01. I listen every day 5-6 hours to
the music and I can say I'm very satisfied.
I think I will listen the Q3 in the next Top Audio in Milan
and I hope I'll be able to compare to the Q5.
Greetings Sergio |
I agree with Peter. For what it's worth, I really like V3 but not quite enough to upgrade my Usher Be-20. Q3 is a different story. Not that is matter much but I understand that locally, my dealer seems to get more order for Q3 these last couple of months than V3 were sold here in the last 2-3 years.
I can't really comment much regarding M5 vs Q3. I only heard M5 once with Krell Evo One/Two. Definitely great speakers regardless of what Q5/Q3 can do. |
I found the Q3 to be much better than the V3. There is a seamless coherence with the Q3. No frequency range brings attention to itself and there is little to no cabinet sound. I found the bass of the V3 to be disjointed from the rest of the speaker. These auditions were at dealerships in different rooms with different equipment.
I found the Q3 to be as coherent as my Mini II and even more transparent and neutral. Of course, it is also far more extended. It's a great speaker. |
nobody has asked how the Q3 compares to the V3 |
I heard from my dealer a few weeks ago that the price will go up, I think First of September if I am not mistaken to $38,000+. I got mine at the original price. Supposedly the price went up because cost of aluminium went up considerably since Q3 was planned and initial price was announced. However I am not in commodity market so I would not know for sure! |
Magico knows there going to get a great review in Sept HiFi + so they will maximize there profit. HELLO!! |
What happened? I thought the Q3 was $34,000. That excellent review in Ultraaudio says it's now $38,950. Did they even deliver any at the lower price? |
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In comparison to Q5, the major benefit for Q3 is that it you will have a lot more choices of amps to choose from. A friend of mine has Q5 and it seems to thrive on lots of power, the more the merrier. Q5 bass definitely will go down deeper. I also agree with JV comments in his CES report that Q5 does sound more neutral and Q3 a bit warmer. However, I have not heard Q3 and Q5 driven by the same amps. With Q5, I probably would forget anything less than 3-400 watts. |
Don't know about the M5, but I was impressed with the direct comparison to the Tidal. Finally an unbiased, educated report. |
I know the M5 very well. Is the Q3 better than the M5? The reviewer seems like he can't stand up straight after listening. |
Magico vs. the World: The Q3 Loudspeakers
http://www.ultraaudio.com/ |
Just a slight update, not sure how to explain this, using Lamm 4 ohms tab instead of the 8 ohms tab, Q3 is not quite as dark as before. Usher impedance is 8 ohms so I never tried 4 ohms tab with it. On the other hand, string seems to have more sparkle with 8 ohms mode while 4 ohms is more creamy, a bit softer. The speakers are really hyperdetail but in an absolutely non fatiguing way. The first day, I started listening at about 2.30pm and did not turn the stereo off until 10 at night. This is how easy and non fatiquing Q3 is to listen to. Perhaps Lamm is also helping here quite a bit as well. |
Suteetat,
Thanks for the detailed response that is what I was looking for. |
James, Usher midrange is a little bit larger, more forward, not quite as well focus, and may be a touch rougher. Image is also a touch flatter on Be-20. I found Usher older Berylium/titanium tweeter a bit on the cool side and DMD sweeter and rounder, which I prefer. Right now Magico is a bit darker in overall tonal balance. Q3 definitely has Usher beaten in term of resolution, detail and absence of any boxiness. Mind you, when I bought Usher (over here it is quite a bit cheaper than in the US), in its price range I could not find anything that I like better so I do have very high regard for Be-20.
Peter, I completely agree with you about Magico's bass. I listen to about 70-80% classical and vocal music. Pop/rock may be only about 5% of the time. |
Congratulations Suteetat. It's not about the quantity of bass, but the quality of bass that matters. The Magico bass with the sealed, inert enclosures just sounds more like the real thing, IMO. Great detail, very little distortion and great weight and body. I also listen mostly to classical, though I don't get the same extension with my Mini IIs. |
Suteetat,
How do the mids on the Ushers and Magicos compare? |
I got Q3 in my living room and I am impressed. The tonal balance is rather different from what I heard at my dealer with Soulution. Q3 replaces Usher Be-20 DMD in my room. Lamm M2.2 certainly has not problem driving it in 8 ohms tab mode. I have not tried 4 ohms tab yet but figure that Q3 may benefit from a bit more power.
Surprisingly, Usher Be-20 diamond tweeter appears to be a bit more extended than Q3 at the moment (with the same Lamm amplifiers). However, these Q3s only have about 200 hours of music playing so far. I understand that it will need about 500 hours to break in.
I understand that some people complain that Magico is not suitable for rock and bass heavy music. In a way, it is true that Q3 does not have the volume or with weight of Be-20. But its bass is almost as deep, faster, more precise, and much better detail. I could hear the note in each instrument much clearer. Be-20 in my room has rather big bump from 50Hz all the way down to 20 Hz and some people may prefer its punchiness and slam over Magico, I suppose. But listening to large scale orchestral work, I find double bass, tympani etc on Q3 to have more natural and realistic balance in comparison to what I hear in concert hall than Be-20 and other great port speakers that have bigger bass slam than Q3.
I have been debating about upgrading Be-20 to V3 for a couple of years, feeling that it was not quite worth the upgrade even though there are many things that I really like about V3. Q3 however is a clear and worthwhile upgrade, at least to my ears, anyhow. |
...it's an engineering issue but I prefer the instruments to be sort of naturally placed and sometimes the mixer will, for example, imply that the drummer has a 20 foot wide kit...or a 30' piano... +1 |
Clavil,
I compared the Mini II to the V3 in the same room at Sound By Singer in NYC. I much preferred the Mini II, though the amplification was different, so it was not a direct comparison. I found the Mini II to be far more coherent.
I've heard the Q3 once at Goodwins High End in Boston. It was in a very large room driven by 1000 W Boulder monos. It sounded amazing. Just as coherent as my Mini IIs, but they were more extended both up and down.
I haven't heard the Magnepan 3.7, but the Q3 did sound extremely fast, clear, transparent and neutral, if that helps. |
--how does the Q3 sounds compared to tha magnepan 3,7 ?
-- wasn't the mini II sounding a lot better than the V3 ? (of course this last one had more bass extension) |
The room I heard Q3/710 in was roughly 3.5mx4.5m or about 11x15ft and a little over 9ft tall. There should not be trouble with volume at all but you will need significant room treatment otherwise Q3 will definitely be too much for the room. Now Q3/710 was moved into a larger room, about 5x7m but I have not heard it yet. However my dealer said that 710 was still adequate for Q3 in that room and 710 actually had an easier time driving Q3 in comparison to V3. |
Thanks for the comments guys.
Looking to upgrade to a nice floorstander in a dedicated audio room of 15ft(L) by 10.5ft(W) by 10ft(H). Will be playing it down the long side of the wall.
In the list are Magico Q3, Tidal Diacera and Ktema.
Suteetat, what is the rough dimension of your dealer room?
Believe my room of the sized mentioned is considered small.
Hope its more than adequate if I decided to go for the Q3 driven by the Soulution 710.
Cheers |
Depends on how big the room you are using 710/Q3 with, I suppose. I heard the combination at my dealer over the weekend in a smallish room and it has no problem driving Q3 to more than adequate loudness with no sign of stress.
I have not yet heard Q3 with other amplifiers but on V3, I prefer it driven by Spectral. Personally, I find Soulution a bit too lean for my taste (I heard 710 with Q3 and 700 with Q5), perhaps its damping factor which is incredibly high, couple to Magico very very fast bass just sound a bit fatiging to me after awhile. No tympani or snare drum is that tight in real life I think. May be it was also Argento cable that my dealer was using that is also on the lean side of neutral. They are getting in MIT cables which I heard sounds great with Spectral/V3 in the past. |
In regard to the Soulution 710 -- I suspect that you will like the sound with this amp, and it will work well, the Soulution line was recommended by Alon Wolf I believe. I do think when you have the time and the funds you may find the Soulution 700 gives even more -- net net I think these speakers will allow you to hear the amp at its best |
Hi guys,
For those who had listened to the Q3s,
Do you think the Soulution 710 stereo amp(120 watts @ 8 ohm, double up the watts when the ohms halved) can drive the Q3 to it's full glory n potential?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers |
Having a good chance to check out the amp requirements of my Q3s now. VTL MB-450s (450W 8xKT88 tube) in the shop for upgrading to MkIII status so have a pair of Silicon Arts Design ZL-120 (120W, MOSFET) in their plance
So OK yes the 120W does drive the speakers, and sounds pretty good (this is after all a $28K amp, vs $18K for the VTLs) and the treble and detail are great -- but there's something missing in space and in the bass. I'd recommend you look for a good 200W+ with these speakers
Makes me wonder what the Technical Brain mono blocks that Magico rates would sound like ... maybe some day |
CES 2012, I also wonder what Magico will do. V2 is still a current model but M6 was discontinued. May be a M6 replacement? |
I humbly submit that I think Ebm was being sarcastic in his remark above. I usually find Ebm's comments both funny and pithy.
I'm now wondering what a future Magico Q2 will cost and sound like. I can guess what it will look like. CES 2012? |
