James63
What concerns Thiel I have to mention that I was a great fan of Thiel products for many years. I very admire the Jim Thiel’s passion of making the good sounding speakers. He was faithful to the idea of coherent source and developed all their products in this direction.
It is not easy to compare CS3.7 to Magico V2 because I have auditioned them in quite different conditions. The room was twice as big as mine, the electronics were different (all Ayre system) and cabling were MIT. The room was undamped with hard stone floor so it was much more live than mine. However Thiel excels in tight and quite deep bass and pin-point localization instruments in the sondstage. I suppose that in such conditions CS3.7 were able to create more deep soundstage. Magico V2 auditioned in my setup excels in extremely high quality trebles – presentation of high tones were mind-blowing. I also did not heard the speaker so free from any colorations as V2. The sound was so neutral and well defined. Thiel are also neutral but not as imposing. I did not try CS3.7 in my system as this model is to big for my room and do not have enough space to breathe.
I also found all Thiels to have their own house sound. My taste has changed a bit and now I found Thiels sounding a little dry to my taste. However I still claim that Thiels have one of the best price-performance ratio in the market. |
Milimetr, unless I missed it, I do not see what is your preference as far as music goes. You say that the Wilson's and the Magico's are more dynamic than the GH's. I would agree that for 'headbangers' that that statement would hold true. Also, if your room is very large, then again the Wilson's and/or the Magico's would fill the space probably better. The GH's are basically small monitors ( note I don't say mini-monitors) and as such their ability to move big air is limited. OTOH, if you are looking for finesse in the reproduction of instruments and particularly un-amplified string instruments, IMHO the GH's are superior to the others.
The room and the type of music you like listening to is a factor in this issue.
With SF's one tends to get a speaker that is voiced more for classical/small jazz ensembles vs. Rock or large bombastic music. The Jadis amp you are using is also IMHO voiced somewhat similarly to the SF's. BTW, have you considered a Sub to extend the bottom end of the SF's ( which is what I suspect you are missing in the GH's vs. The V2's and the Wilsons). I would think that a Torus sub and the SF GH's would come in at a lower price than the V2's or certainly the Mini 2'and could be the answer for you. |
Hi Milimetr,
I don't want to get your post off topic but I see that you have had both the Thiel 3.7 ( and own thiels) and Magico V2 in your system. I would love to hear your comparisons and thoughts on these two speakers. |
---> Mariv26
You are probably right about these prices. But if, for example V2, costs in US 18.000 $ for me it means that it is probably worth that kind of money. Or rather it means that you cannot get it cheaper. If I live in Europe and have to pay say 32.000 $ for the same product I will always ask the question for myself if that products is still worth the European price. The alternative is to purchase European products living in Europe. |
Thanks for your response Milimetr, very helpful |
Here in Italy the V2 cost 20,000 Euro. I think it is a mistake to compare it to the $ MSRP in the US. You can’t earns in Euros and spend in $s. That is simply the wrong way to look at things. It is indeed a much more expensive speakers then the SF but certainly in a different league all together. |
Mili....You are smart to realize that it is the combination of amp/speaker(let's not forget the room)interface that determines success.....I have a sneakey suspicion that you are ultimately going to have a fabulous system.
Aside from that,you could start another war with all those choices-:)
Also,just my opinion,but your amp is beautifully smoothe,while not colored,so if you move towards a higher resolution speaker design you should have great success.
It's your call,and I know it is not easy....but...it's alot of fun....NO? -:)
Personally,those Little Sonus Fabers are very fine.I've heard them a few times and like them alot,but that is one man's opinion.
Good luck |
The GH compared to Cremona Auditor M were much more transparent and clear sounding with better high and better bass control. Cremona seems to have more bass extensions and is more universal speaker. Also Cremona have more sweet midrange but GH is more neutral sounding speaker. Both are great but Guarneri is the class for its own.
As for the Diablo Utopia I do not like them in my system. These were over technically sounding speakers. These speaker almost killed all beautiful tonality and richness that Jadis is capable of produce. The bas was extended and tight but overall sound was uninvolving. But it can be system or room mismatching. |
Milimetr, what did you think of the Cremona Auditor M compared to the Guarneri? And how did you like the JM Lab Diabo?
Thanks in advance |
I have no information about damping factor of the JA80 (manual does not include this parameter), but output transformer seems to be oversized 10x compared to nominal output power. Also both monoblocks uses 8 power tubes (KT88 in my case), still rating output power as 60W. Many other manufactures (like Audio Research I have owned before) rates their amps using 8 output tubes as 100 Watts. I understand that we cannot judge power only on amount of tubes used, but still I think that 60 Watts for Jadis is conservative rating. I think that this amp works well even with difficult loads because can deliver enough current.
Back to the topic.
I am really impressed by performance of Magico V2. I am sure that if you can buy this speaker in US with some discount at retail prices it is really worth that money.
However the prices of Magico in Europe are ridiculous as I mentioned before. For example suggested price for V2 is about 32.000 $ and Mini II funny 56.000 $
I am sure that you agree that for that prices enthusiasm for that brand can be a little moderated. For comparison Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento which is indeed great monitor also can be purchased for about 14.000 $
I have no doubts that Mini II is in different league but what I am trying to do is to judge if the difference in price are worth difference in performance.
Here is the list of speakers I have auditioned. These are speakers from different price levels, different sizes and efficiency. As I mentioned before the V2 was the speaker that impressed me the most of all in my own system. Other speaker that impressed me in terms of unlimited dynamics were Wilson Audio but I found them not as delicacy and refined on the mid and top as Magico, but definitely greater bass. Next very good speakers were old Guarneri Hommage – here I got the very musical and involving sound but not at comparable scale to Wilsons and Magico. I think that speakers like SF monitors are for a little different listening habbits – more intimacy contact with music.
Few speakers I have auditioned were to large or to expensive – I auditioned them to become familiar with “house sound”. The biggest disappointment were Avalon Indras that sounded literally as broken in my system. Even Ascendants II sounded better. I suppose that Avalons are quite interesting speakers but very fussy about placement and associating equipment.
Here is a list – I hope it helps someone (the @ indicated auditioning in own system at home):
Thiel Audio CS2.3 @ (owned for 8 years),
Thiel Audio SCS4 @
Thiel Audio CS3.7
Magnepan MG 1.6
Wilson Benesch ACT @
Wilson Benesch Trinity with Torus sub @
JM Lab Diablo Utopia @
Living Voice Auditorium II
Wilson Audio Sophia 2
Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy System 8
Avalon Acustic Ascendant II @
Avalon Acustic Indra @
Harbeth M40.1 (also great but too big for my room)
Harbeth SHL 5
Vandersteen Quatro @
Sonus Faber Guarneri Hommage @ (this speaker leads me toward new GM)
Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario
Sonus Faber Stradivarii
Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M @
Audio Physic Caldera
ART Loudspeakers Emotion
Lowther Audiovector (different world of speakers)
Lowther Bel Canto @
Magico V2 (the most jaw dropping from the list) |
Btw,I should have mentioned that I am very familiar with that lovely looking(really gorgeous)and silken sounding Jadis JA-80.
I have a friend who ran it on the mid/high sections of his Infinity RS-1B's.He wrote the Mercury LP series for TAS,and a good bit of those "classic reviews" were with the Jadis in use.Not too shabby at all-:)
I heard it on many occassions,and though the wattage was only 60wpc,those panels(not efficient,so an accolade for the amp's clout)really opened up,and sang!
The crossover,at the time,was set to kick in just above 80 hz for the Jadis to come into play,but still having owned the Infinity's myself(for three years)that amp had darn good dynamics.I never thought anything was missing.
Damping factor could not have been too bad,as the amp delivered the goods!Just take a look at that oversized power supply,if one can get past the stunning chassis,which isn't easy.....Real eye candy!
I'd not worry much about driving the Mini,or V-2,unless you like to split plaster.
Hope this helps |
I believe it would be common sense to assume that the easier the load a speaker places on it's partnering amp,the less distortion would be had.This would bode well for the V-2 I'd think. |
Never had troble with my minis tweeter sounds great to me i love violin!!What about imaging and magic midrange!! |
During the dealer demos of the Mini 2 and the V2, I found the V2 was more forgiving of placement. The dealer said that is a result of the new tweeter which is very smooth and can be aimed directly at the listener. The Mini 2 tweeter was too harsh on axis and needed to be toed out lightly. I have not compared the two in the same system, so my opinion is not as valid as others here who have, but I preferred the V2 in its Spectral/SME/MIT system. It went lower in the bass, is slightly easier to drive, has a smoother tweeter, was less particular about placement and is far less expensive. I'm trying to figure out how to afford a pair. |
HI i have MINI 2 with Rowland 8T 250ch damping factor of 100,20hzto20khz 8 ohms does a great job of controling woofer lots of slam. V2 V3 are easyer to drive. |
Btw, EBM,
As stated by cooler headed posters,it would be in both of our interests to drop this NOW!!!.....(Jtimothya,nice to see you still posting....and,sorry for "this" absurd thread,but I have good reason).
I really don't want to persue this anymore and truly am sorry to ALL of the good folks having to put up with this.
Still,I have a damn good gripe,so let's just drop it here.O EBM,you can read my private message sent to you today.That will put everything in proper perspective.Not that you did not know that already,but if you continue to "push this here" I am not going to let you demean me,and will embarrass you with your underhanded ploys!
Let's at least agree to drop it here and now.OK? |
Er,um...I was unaware I was supposed to leave feedback for those folks who "bought from me".All got "exactly" what was advertised,and great stuff!
EBM,give it a rest and be really happy I did not leave the feedback you surely deserved!I knew it would kill you if I did so(legitimately,btw)and decided not to do it.
Drop it,or I'll spill the beans! |
For crying out loud, can we please talk about Magico speakers instead of one another?
Milimetr - I'm surprised to learn the Jadis has enough power.
How important is damping factor for an amp to find happiness with the V2, V3, Mini II ? Seems most of the SS amps reported to work well come in w/ a damping factor above 100 and Watts at 150 or more.
|
Sir speedy is the guy who got positive feedback from at least 12 members and left none for them!!! |
Trust me folks,it would not behoove EBM to "go there".He has already lost the respect of our entire friends group on the matter!
I'll leave it at that,but my posts have a "damn good reason" behind them....Still,all in all I admit it does not belong on Audiogon and am sorry for being stupid enough to drop down to that level....A level a particular poster knows well. |
OBVISOUSLY SIR SPEEDY HAS A PERSONNAL VENDETTA AGAINST ME AND MY WIFE. THIS HAS NO PLACE IN AUDIOGON. IT IS CHILDISH. THIS SHOULD BE A PROFESSIONAL FORUM! I love my system but i love live classical music more. |
To the original Poster...Milimetr---
Back to the excellent Mini's or the V-2 for a moment...
These are very fine speakers,but they are very sensitive/responsive to room placement(a good thing).I had a hand in setting up a Mini system,so I know it well.I doubt anyone will not state that these work best by giving them a good amount of room to breathe.
Unfortunately,in the set up I had a hand in,the particular owner was handcuffed with a terrible,and very crowded room.Not to mention a life partner who was so angst driven,and loaded with "anger issues",that "he" could not so much as move the speakers "one inch",without having to do it on the sneak....A recipe for disaster,sadly!
Anyway,this set up measured very poorly,when an experienced audio friend ran a sweep on it.It was off by almost ten db at 60-80 hz....Unfortunatley,there were more problems,as the room had so much clutter,that the speaker was a shell of how I had heard it even at a show condition...where it was superbly driven by VAC tubes.In this home set up though,the soundstage was non existant.
My point being be very careful with these speakers,as they are literally a microscope on the rest of the system.They happen to be "that good"!It is nice to get one's money's worth,so be careful,which I'm sure you are qualified to do-:)
I assume the V-2 would certainly add more bass,and the need for a redundant sub would not be an issue.It is not an issue with the Mini either(as that speaker can sound superb)but make sure to give either of these speakers what they "deserve".
Good luck |
Thanks Roypan your on the mark as usual!! |
I have MAGICO MINIS and love them .I did hear Sason speakers at Ridge street Audio Design Room 437 Rocky Mountain in 2008 they sounded fine heard them with my wife in two more Friends they all agreeded MAGICO MINI 2 Much better faster better highs etc.If thats all you have to spend they are a good speaker at the price. |
"Expensive" is not always better, but cheap, is sometime just that. |
Roypan,thanks for your concern.Why am I not surprised?
My post was,and "is" valid...and there is an aspect of it you know nothing about!
My suggestion about the "Sason speaker" is quite valid.You,on the other hand spew distaste on a regular basis,if someone disagrees with any of your thoughts.Which "truly" bring little to the table,from what I've read.Thankfully,not much-:)
I'll not respond to anything you care to post from now on.So have some fun,and fire away!
There is little to be gained from someone like yourself,and "why" would you have to insinuate your negative attitude to me,at this point,on "this" thread?......Oh yes,you did not like some of my comments about my "opinions" from about six months ago.Now,I get it!....Man,you sure hold a grudge!!
I was certainly not referring to you here,and "did" compliment the Minis(the speakers you own),only offering a wonderful alternative....
While we are on the subject(pertaining to the "original poster's legitimate querry")the Volent VL-2 is a "superlative and beautiful to behold" monitor, to look at as well.It has the original mid/bass driver of the first generation Magico Mini,while adding a superlative high performance ribbon driver,for the top end.All in a gorgeous package,AND about one quarter the cost of the "excellent" Magico.It,too was reviewed(and compared favorably)to the Mini by the wonderful reviewer Srajaen Eaben,of Six Moons awhile ago.
Anything wrong with saving a few dollars,or is "expensive" always better?...Fuel for thought,for the "thinking hobbyist".
Give me a break,and stay on topic. |
Sirspeedy,
Have not seen you trolling around Magico threads for some time. Have looked at your suggestions. Unfortunately, as usual, you bring nothing to the table but bad taste. Now don’t you start whining ("... I am only offering a well thought out alternative...") Your passive-aggressive style will not do. The post title Mini 2 vs. V2. If you wish to recommend other speakers, I am sure you can find a thread to do it on.BTW, I am sure your Mazda is better than EBM Porsche as well. |
Thank you guys for all sugestions.
I am waiting for audition of one more monitor speaker and will decide what to do. |
EBM,you and I both know you have never heard the Sason.You purchase products by cache "only".I knew you for years,and you "always" bought on reviews and reputation ONLY!
Besides, if you are so happy,why are you adding a Rel woofer to the Mini?You have a small room,and the Mini is perfect as is.Apparently you are not satisfied,and we both know that to be true.We had numerous conversations before you decided what was important in your life.No help on the home front there!
There is NO way that a REL will be a successful match!I guess you are getting bored again.
Anyway,I offer the original poster an oportunity to check out a fabulous design,that comes with a 45 day full money back guarantee.
According to those folks(me included) who have heard the Sason,as well as the Stereomojo review(who stated it was superior to the Mini,btw)it is the better speaker.Some folks think through their "decisions",and weigh the consequences.
I'm offering a well thought out alternative,no more.
Best to all |
MAGICO MINI 2 and V2 two great speakers with wonderful sound Sason great budget speaker not in a class with MAGICO. |
You might want to take a look at the Ridge Street Audio "Sason" speaker.Just take look at the web page at least.
This is a world class monitor that has some real advantages over the "fine" Magico.It is as well built,but has the significant advantage of easy drive,and will work very well with your amp.The amp/speaker interface is very important in this scenario.
I like the Mini very much,but it is not an easy load,and the crossover is "still" in the same cabinet as the drivers(works well,but not ideal).
The Sason has a crossover that is employed in the base/stand and it is "hard wired" to the speaker.It also is a very easy load,and has a tuneable bass port design,that is quite ingenious.The speaker connects to the cabling with a Cardas "clamp" system,for no signal loss.
It has gotten raves from those hearing it,and comes with a 45 day money back guarantee.SERIOUS!
I am coming back to the hobby,in another few months and this design is high on my list.
I,like you,want to run a good tube design amp,which works best with the Minis.The "only" amp I heard with the Minis which allowed for true texture was the VAC stuff.Just fabulous,was the VAC,with the better textural detail compared to SS designs(Solid state is fine,but loses some reality on the Minis,imo).
I have NO affiliation with Ridge Street Audio,but having looked hard at the monitor market(for obvious reasons)and liking a good stand mount,this Ridge Street Audio design has got me excited about audio again.
All in all,the Magicos are fine speakers....The Ridge Street Audio Sason is "considerably" lower in price,because you buy direct...yet....the design has been refined for years.
Good luck,in whatever you chose!! |
You seem to have narrowed down choices between the two--GM vs V2. It should be a much easier call as they are both (sound wise) different enough. Primarily, your taste, preferences, goals and cost will be the next determining factors. Both superb, but I would definitely go V2. Good luck. Do update. |
Milimetr,
your statement about the Guarneri Memento being less transparent is interesting. One of the AB's my 'phile friends and I have done is a comparison between the SF GH's
and the SF GM's. This was very instructive since the GM's lost out in all areas except maybe a little more bottom end
heft. The GM's were far less transparent than the GH's. We postulated many reasons for this, most of which I have posted before on A'gon. SF seemed to have 'cheapened' if you will the speaker when they introduced the GM's and we all felt that this was obvious in the 'AB'.
The original GH's vs. the Mini 2's would be a better comparison IMHO. |
MINI 2 with 300 watts per channel in my room 13WX19/3/4d with 9Ft cealing Rowland 8T sounds wonderful with vocal etc magic!! Im using Kharma speaker wire. I do agree speaker price is getting too high. v2 is wonderful with more bass i heard people with Rel subs on mini for super system however this being said V2 is a bargin!!MINI 2 is the best small monitor!! |
If you have heard the V2's in your room and your system and were very pleased, I'd call it good and place the order. As others have stated, system matching is important and if you know you have a match, no need to risk any other expense and hassle. |
@ Ebm
In my room Magico V2 worked very well with 60W Jadis. Jadis is very conservative rated at 60W and has enormous output transformer. So there is no problem that 60 tube Watts were to short for Magico, but probably more Watts will be even better.
I suppose that Magico monitors may require even more power than V2.
@ Bvdiman
The height of the ceiling is near 9 ft. Yes, the transparency is the most noticeable advantage of V2.
The foloorstanding V2 do to suits my room and now I have hard decision to make. Mini II in US are very highly priced, but in Europe (where I live) the pice for Mini II is just ridiculous!
That’s why I also think about Guarneri Memento. It does not have such transparency, but maybe is would be possible to correct with proper cabling. |
A while back some friends and I did an 'AB' comparison between the Magico Mini 1 vs. my SF GH's. Too a man, we all preferred the SF's in my room, by a wide margin. Albeit,this was the Mini 1 and not the Mini 2s. So, I don't know how the SF's would stack up today against the Mini 2's, would be interested to see. BTW, at the time, there were numerous posts from disgruntled Magico owners in disbelief, they've probably all 'upgraded' to the Mini 2's since then. |
Hi Milimetr,
If your preference (as stated) are monitor speakers, then no doubt the Mini2 is it. In a room your size, given sufficient quality juice, I believe they will play full-range enough. I would suggest a 'minimum' of 200watts+ of quality tube power, or 400watts+/4ohms of SS muscle.
However, with any Magico current line, I'm afraid your current amp will not be quite up to task. I had driven Mini2s with the Jadis JA200 for several months and was at times left wanting--they are really power hungry! And as with all great transparent transducers, are also very sensitive to the quality of gears preceding them. That said, V2 as is the V3 is a 'slightly' easier drive. How high is your ceiling? |
I have heard both the V2 and the Mini 2. They were in different systems but at the same dealership. The Mini 2/Nagra/VPI system did nothing for me. Detail and dynamics were lacking and I felt no involvement with the music. The V2/Spectal/SME/MIT system, on the other hand,was incredibly musical and involving. In fact, it was the best dealer demo I've ever heard. This leads me to conclude that both speakers are extremely transparent and revealing and highly dependent on the matching with the rest of the system. The V2 did seem to have deeper and fuller bass and the new tweeter allowed the speaker to be tilted directly at the listener which I find helps to lessen the effects of the room. The V2 at 60% of the cost of the Mini 2 is an incredible speaker. The Mini 2 is probably also superb, but the system in which I heard it did not help it at all. |
Mini 2 better midrange needs more than 60W to drine i have Rowland 8t 300w ch into MINI room is like yours. If you want better imaging and a speaker that disappears MINI 2 is it more bass V2 both great MINI 2 is the best small monitor. |
