Looking for a Giant Killer Digital cable
No direct experience with their coax but picked up a Oyaide NEO d+ Class A USB for low $ and was very impressed so Oyaide might be an option to explore. The 102SSC they cite is their replacement for Ohno Continuous Cast Copper, by the way. http://www.neo-w.com/english/as-808-v2-series_e.html |
Budget ‘Giant Killer’ RCA is an oxymoron. (1) You only get what you pay for...full stop; . and (2) The equipment and accessories audio performance in this hobby is a direct result arising that everything is only built to its price-point ; (3) At that stated price-point strata, the audio performance differentiation between all the perceived contenders and pretenders is negligible to nil.... so its distilled down to "...just pick one of ’em...." exercise. |
Chris Somoviggo makes some of the best and best value true 75ohm cables there are -- his current entry level SilverStar is $222 but you could look for one of his products used (although I don't see any of the entry level currently out there) |
@ghosthouse Thanks. I have a BNC by Oyiade 1.3M I like a lot. Full and smooth while being extended and with quite sufficient bottom end. I’ll look into what’s up with them currently. Thanks again. Good call. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . @akg_ca Natch! But ya gotta get in where ya fit in sometimes too. . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . david_ten yeah. Mostly. PM me. I’ll fill ya in. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @folkfreak I recall that name. was he behind the Streovox ultra thin steel cables? I bought one of those and it was OK. a tad edgy back then but did well with most well done recordings. It sat on my USB to BNC stick thingy. Hell, I can’t even recall what its name is. Hahaha The Oyiade BNC wire replaced it eventually. > $200 though, is gonna be off limits for me I think for this particular operation.. |
A bit more and you could have a real giant killer, the Standard BNC with RCA adapters. $275. Here are jitter measurements: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@folkfreak would you mind including a link to Chris’ cable? Thanks. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . @tgrisham Thank you. . . . . . . . . . . . @audioengr Hey steve…. Wow. Very cool. Many thanks. Especially for the link. They are always definitely tremendously appreciated. Maybe I should rethink this budget and or wait a wee bit more to get something better. Albeit, less jitter ain’t the whole dance. Definitely interesting though. Thanks immensely. . . . . . . . . . . . . @jayctoy Very much appreciated. Tanks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Things invariably change with tiome. Its good to see input on wires one doesn’t have to use a helicopter with a large electromagnet, a semi tractor trailer, and laughing gas, to pilfer an armored truck in order to afford one. The semi, high speed drills, and gas are easy. Finding a helicopter pilot that ain’t finicky … and has skills…. now there is the trick. |
@blindjim --sorry the link I provided didn't work -- here it is in ugly format https://blackcatcable.com/products/c-silverstar-75-mk2-spdif Chris’ original cable with Black Cat (and one to look for used) was the Veloce http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/blackcat/veloce.html |
30-day money-back, less $8 shipping on the Standard BNC cable. You are welcome to shoot it out against other cables for 30 days. Sometimes I allow a bit more if needed. My very best is my Reference BNC for $499, but the Standard is very close. More silver in the Reference. Both are aerospace cable with expanded Teflon dielectric and double-shielded terminated to 18GHz B/W BNC connectors. Very good 75 ohm match, better than Belden cables. Connectors are a perfect match, except of course when using the RCA adapters, which will never be 75 ohms. These don’t seem to affect the SQ though. The important thing is the termination to the coax. I have been doing cables since 1996 and I have a EE degree. Computer simulated many of my designs. Terminating a coax to BNC is much better than trying to solder to a RCA connector any type coax cable. The impedance is a perfect match with BNCs. BNCs are specifically made for each cable type, either 50 or 75 ohms char. impedance. There are hundreds of BNC connector types as a result. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Apogee Wyde Eye is a solid performer that you can get new for $40 for 1m or $50 for 1.5m. Should hold you over just fine until you can afford to step up. I prefer it to my Streovox XV2 as I find it to be more naturally balanced with better tonality. Best of luck https://www.amazon.com/Geistnotes-Apogee-Wyde-Cable-WE-RR/dp/B01N29180M?th=1 |
this one is a giant killer digital cable ... KLEI gZero2D SPDIF/IC |
also noticed these ones ... Mad Scientist Heretical Digital Cable (HDC) Mad Scientist Flexible Carbon/Graphene Digital Interconnects |
folkfreak got it. cool. Many thanks. …. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . @audioengr That’s better. Wasn’t able to see exactly which wire you refered to in the previous Link. Can’t RCA termination maintain the 75Ohm protocol? The flexibility from B.. to R.. is attractive, but I’d prefer the most stable, better performer per se, than a one size fits all solution. Usually. . . . .. . . . . . . . . . soix excellent. Huge thanks. Having something is better than having not something. It breeds freedom and nonchalance, making the hunt a stroll rather than a gallop.. that’s the one! I had the v2 as well. Cool. . . . . . . . . . . .. . yping considerable thanks. . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . As this particular item gets dedicated for RCA to RCA digital 75 ohm use, it should be self evident the proposition leans heavily onto convenience with performance attributes being slightly less important. For one, its merely an Oppo universal format player and used in an HT array where audio is a supportive element more so than the star. Only streaming audio and CDs with 16/44 is getting passed out via SPDIF anyhow. Unless it will as well pass higher sampling rates with HD audio files. Hmmm. Dunno. Consequently, throwing wads of dough into this bucket just makes little sense to me. There is little sense in putting a $4,000 trailer hitch on a 1980 F 150 300 cid Pickup that hauls around bee hives, lawn debris and the occasional building supplies. Right? Right. Although, YRMV. |
Been very happy with my Nordost Silver Shadow digital coax, it is terminated in bnc both ends and i use bnc to rca adapters both ends. Some NOS around for between 150 to 200 i believe Have to admit though that Nordost does not suit every system, works well in mine and i preferred the sq over a couple much more spendy audioquest and wireworld cables i tried. |
Few things I have learned about digital coax cables: - BNC connectors are best, but need to get closest to a true 75 ohm RCA connector as possible. - For cable composition, solid-core is best with silver-plated or pure silver being the desired for digital signals. - Watch cable length. I always get 2M / 6 foot digital cables because I have experienced the reflection problems on short cables - this comes across as slightly smeared sound with a loss of resolution. So, that being said, there are a couple of ideas: 1. Blue Jeans - Beldon 1694A with the Canare RCAP connectors. It's very cheap at $21 for a 6 foot, but I have been very impressed with this digital cable. It has beat other cables that were actually a lot more expensive. 2. DH Labs D-750. A solid-core silver plated conductor with RCA connectors that I think are closest to 75 ohm. About $200 for 1.5M or $235 for 2M. I haven't really looked at other cables because I really cannot see spending more than $300 on a coax digital. But I've thought about building a digital cable using 2 meters of the VH Audio Pulsar Ag silver cable with DH Labs RCA-750 plugs. This is way down on my priority list because there are many other priorities - and the Beldon 1694A cable performs so well in my systems. |
@carmenc Agreed. Tanks. . . . . . . . . . . . . @audioengr Wow. Good to know. Got any compunction to explain why? Your input is always valued and appreciated. Tanks much. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . @uberwaltz Thanks. I agree on some wires not palying well with various setups. Funny how that works. I refer to when a certain thing is either working or not working out well as the FM circuit. F*****g Mystery ckt. It do happen! Tanks a lot. . . . . . . . . … @roxy54 Certainly exciting news!? I would echo other comments asking for subjective or anecdotal appraisals of the cable’s sonic and presentation attributes if you please. . . . . . . . . . . .. . . @auxinput Great info! Very thoughtful! Definitely interested. Big thanks. . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . Sorry if I missed anyone. Its odd that something of a consensus seems to be materializing on the disparity between modest or moderately priced SPDIF conducting cables and those costing far, far, more. It is in fact my own EXP as well. In years past, I auditioned some SOTA wires costing upwards of $1200 vs those of $100, to $500. Naturally it was system dependant in that all were rolled into and out of one particular point for data transference, Sony XA 777 to Bel Canto DAC 3. Later on as the link from sound upper end cards and or Hiface to the same BC D3. In each instance tone, musicality and special cue disparities were readily observed. However, those beyond or above the then modest cost of $200 and under were tuff to totally beat in overall performance.. For my concerns, organics are key. Thereafter, imaging. Is the note being propelled more by the steel strings of the banjo or guitar and the resonance of the instrument itself? Is the sound of brass all about its leading edge demonstration or is the timber of its notes honest and musical? Is there note development and decay? Does it simply feel right sounding or off, or exaggerated?? That said, I regularly prefer as transparent a reproduction as possible so long as it is not fatiguing. I feel things are right when my head quits questioning this or that all the time a tune plays and my knee is bobing up and down, or a smile gets plastered on my face during the listening session.. Although…. I have unerringly experienced in a very familiar system owned by a friend, that one unobtainium cable ($2K plus) can unquestionably place itself way above many when auditioning several dACs in a casual DAC comparison some time ago. I wrote about this instance in a former review I posted on these pages 5 or 6 years back. the SPDIF link fed from a Wavelength USB to SPDIF converter and it handed data off to the then most recent iteration of the Bel Canto D3.1 or .2. can’t recall exactly now. Without controversy from the crowd, that array once feeding the audio system was simply and utterly goose bumpy impressive playing the same well known files all were familiarized with during the session. Whoa. The degree of virtual ‘reality’ was not even close. It must be said too, the Wavelength, BC D3.1, arrangement overall was the most expensive setup of the three DACs being auditioned. Was it indeed the SPDIF link? Gordon’s USB to SPDIF Brick? The BC D3.1? whatever carried the day, hauled it off without regrets! The other DACS were Mitner USB DSD DAC, and a Berkley USB DAC. See account for more details. Naturally then I’ve been convinced there is something to the notion of cabling expenses contributing to increasing system performance. And certainly, the setup itself really, really does matter. This bottom line remains, is it justifiable? Further, is it in your world, then doable? |
@blindjim thanks for the good summary of your experience Through 30 years experience in digital my realization has been that while cables do make a big difference the initial and dominant factor is choice of interface itself. S/PDIF is about the worse possible platform for carrying digital data. In my experience (most recently with dCS stacks) there is a clear hierarchy (assume here we are carrying 16/44.1, of course the latter several formats can also carry DSD and higher rate PCM) S/PDIF (TOS) -> S/PDIF (RCA)->AES3->FireWire (presumably also other similar proprietary HDMI based formats)->Dual AES/EBU In any configuration a step up in cables will bring benefit but generally lesser cables in a better interface will outperform better cables on a less stable interface. Of course with your Oppo you only have S/PDIF so this is moot but even so changing the cable will make a difference. I do wonder however if there is any way of using the HDMI out (audio only) - presumably this is primarily provided for multi-channel but I suspect this may be a superior stereo interface, it could be worth exploring. .... Also as you are no doubt aware the cable itself will be directional The only 75Ohm cables in my current setup are those carrying the clocks -- which is actually a tough proposition and very cable sensitive. Going from AQ Eagle Eye to Transparent Ref XL was a substantial step up. For my most recent addition of a 10MHz master I used a Marigo 75Ohm cable and was a) again amazed at the step up from a generic BNC but b) most surprised at how different it sounded one way round rather than another |
This is your experience with your particular equipment, not something that you can make broad conclusions from. There is nothing fundamentally flawed with S/PDIF as a transmission medium. There is no reason why it cannot be as good or better than any others, except perhaps lack of error correction. It is double-terminated, so if the interfaces are properly designed, it will have superb signal integrity and very low jitter. I routinely get ~15psec at the end of the cable across 75 ohm terminator. This is the rub. Very few designers get the driver right. Wrong impedance and wrong voltage. I used to mod a lot of CD players/transports and computer audio equipment. Not one of them was designed right, even from Sony. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@blindjim organics are key. Thereafter, imaging. Is the note being propelled more by the steel strings of the banjo or guitar and the resonance of the instrument itself? Is the sound of brass all about its leading edge demonstration or is the timber of its notes honest and musical? Is there note development and decay? Does it simply feel right sounding or off, or exaggerated?? Very well articulated statement. Aren't we looking for these attributes in the rest of our system? There is no reason to accept less performance when it comes to digital, but it seems to take longer to reach this goal. |
@audioengr I have no reason to disagree with you that S/PDIF cannot perform well if properly implemented -- but my comment related to consumer implementations with RCA or TOS termination, not a true 75ohm BNC -- if we assume you cannot get a true 75ohm out of an RCA ... I wonder why more manufacturers don't get it right, maybe as those that care that much are including S/PDIF on RCA as a convenience and prefer you use AES3 or some other method? |
S/PDIF TOSLINK fiberoptic is actually a very horrible cable. The reason is that the LED or light generating source just cannot light up fast enough to transmit the digital square waves properly. It comes across as a very squirly looking wave (not square at all). The result is lost resolution and information - possible problems from signal reflections, ability for target to properly read in the light signals, etc. Regular S/PDIF COAX digital cable is actually not a bad system, though using BNC connectors is best. Only a true i2s digital connection is better because the DAC/source does not have to encode the stereo digital signals into a single wire signal. That is the S/PDIF method. Keep in mind that i2s connections will typically use an HDMI cable. This does not mean it’s an HDMI interface. It just uses the cable/connectors as the physical medium for transmitting the i2s signals (which are completely different from normal HDMI audio/video). |
if we assume you cannot get a true 75ohm out of an RCA ... I wonder why more manufacturers don't get it right, maybe as those that care that much are including S/PDIF on RCA as a convenience and prefer you use AES3 or some other method? Simple. They don't have the expertise/experience to execute these designs correctly. After seeing many of these designs in my modding days, I came to the conclusion that they just copy each other, not really understanding how the interface really behaves. The bad designs just get replicated over and over. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Regular S/PDIF COAX digital cable is actually not a bad system, though using BNC connectors is best. Only a true i2s digital connection is better because the DAC/source does not have to encode the stereo digital signals into a single wire signal. That is the S/PDIF method. I2S is not necessarily a panacea either, although its a good start. Most of my products have I2S interfaces, both SE and differential (HDMI connector), so I know how they behave. Galvanic isolation of I2S is a non-starter because it adds too much jitter. Because S/PDIF is a zero-crossing signal, at least it’s easy to add a high-quality pulse transformer and get isolation. I have compare with my own DAC the difference between S/PDIF input (on BNC) to I2S input (on RJ-45). The difference is actually really small, almost audibly undetectable. This is partly because I use a AK4114 receiver, which reduces S/PDIF jitter significantly. As for differential I2S, the problem there IMO is the LVDS driver and receiver that add jitter. I think the SE I2S on RJ-45 is better. The other advantage of S/PDIF over I2S is that a world-class cable for SPDIF is a lot less expensive than a world-class cable for I2S. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
“For my concerns, organics are key. Thereafter, imaging. Is the note being propelled more by the steel strings of the banjo or guitar and the resonance of the instrument itself? Is the sound of brass all about its leading edge demonstration or is the timber of its notes honest and musical? Is there note development and decay? Does it simply feel right sounding or off, or exaggerated??” blindjim, “Organic” is a word I would use to describe the sound of the Cerious GE digital cable. From my experience with it, I would answer all these questions positively. |
Hi All, Sorry to be late in responding. I certainly don't want to represent myself as an expert regarding digital cables, but I have used for long periods of time 5 different brands, and when I bought the Cerious Graphene Extreme, I just felt that it had everything I was looking for with no negatives (for me). I think that it is dynamic, smooth, detailed in a natural way, excellent focus and very good at revealing timbre. That's about it. |
@folkfreak Appreciate the thoughtful insights and personal EXP accounts. Very cool. ULTIMATELY I FOUND THRU THESE PAGES AND OTHERS, bnc AND aes WERE BETTER INTERFACES. SOME INTERESTING GEAR HOWEVER DID NOT ALWAYS provide both or either. Then many digital devices began hanging their hats onto USB conversion to get past or beyond PC Sound cards. Albeit I had quite good results using the likes of Lynx or a Hammer (??). I still enjoy what the Lynx AES 16 express brings to the what ever DAC it feeds, even though the AES cable is quite low on the food chain. Gotham. Presently it seems the streaming fascination has exploded in my absence and much press says the inherent bug a boos of USB have been soundly addressed to the point USB has once more become a solid avenue for data transference. I’m still residing in the camp of Ethernet to the streamer thingy but would then prefer the conduit du jour either be AES or BNC at the what ever dAC side. RE directional cable Every cable I’ve ever owned is directional. Each one goes DIRECTLY from one conection to another. No stops in between. No detours. Picture taking. No Autograph seeking. No Chucky Cheese and definitely no loitering. With luck, we’ll see first hand on several accounts in due time. Thanks. . . . . . . . . . . . @lowrider57 lol blindjim > organics are key. Thereafter, imaging. Is the Aren't we looking for these attributes in the rest of our system? Thank you. yes. Of course. That brief insight on tones and presentation is the bar I hold for any thing entering and remaining in my main audio system. Albeit, the usual arbiter is its affordability and just as with any long term relationship compromises eventually find their way into the equation due to financial constraints. Fortunately, I’ve been able to put together outfits which demonstrate loads of ‘they are here’ or I am there events, without inordinately reducing the on hand listening catalog. Music listening for me is a devotion, not a discipline. Music making? That is where discipline is unavoidable. … and yep. It do take a while some times. . . . . . . . . . tommylion fascinating. Many thanks. . . . . . . . . . . . . wloeb I am very grateful. Tanks. . . . . . . . . . roxy54 OK. I’m thinking I’m sold. Actually on a couple two or three wires mentioned here. Very nice. Huge thanks. |
@tom_hankins Hmmm. Did not know the Carbon was available as a SPDIF. Thought it was just a USB wire. Good. Do you feel the Carbon is similar in either respect, USB or SPDIF, acoustically or sonically speaking of course? Thanks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . aolprodj thank you for your input. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Some time back, there was much to do about the length of digital cables. The upshot of it all was that 1.5M (6ft) cables were the prime choice for ANY likewise application. In fact, this desired or presumed length of 6ft. began expressing itself as the golden rule length for analog cables too. Does this still hold true? Or has the current advancements in jitter correction within the devices addressed this to the point of making one particular length vs another, irrelevant to the conversation? Thanks. |
Jitter correction really doesn't have anything to do with the length of the cable. Jitter can be caused by different things, but mostly it is cause by poor clocks or translating audio data back and forth between different digital transmission clock rates. A good example of this is transmitting S/PDIF over HDMI signal data. Jitter can also be caused by a "store-and-forward" mechanism of transferring digital data between data bus sections. The minimum length of cable recommended is generally 1.5M (which is just over 4 1/2 feet). I always go 6 feet / 2 meter just to be safe. A short cable can cause reflections. This happens when the square wave pulse generated at the source hits the target receiver, but the pulse is actually reflected or echoed back down the wire to the source transmitter - which then can cause interference with the next generated pulses (sometimes cancelling out the pulses enough so that it comes across as a NULL pulse). This doesn't just relate to digital SPDIF coax. The cable length / reflection issue occurs with all digital cables, including USB and HDMI as well. There are times where you have a very strong transmitter (such as an HDMI transmitter chip). I have seen cases where equipment manufacturers actually recommend long HDMI cables. Sometimes short cables just won't work because of the reflection problems. Lumagen Radiance video processors is a good example here. |
Analog cable does not have the "reflection issue" because it is transmitting analog waveforms (which are very curvy/ragged). Analog also does not transmit at digital speeds. Analog pretty much maxes out at 20 kilohertz to 30 kilohertz. But digital transmission pulses can be in the megahertz range. With analog cables, it is my opinion that shorter is better (but you can do a long length analog cable if you wish). |
This is a subject I am naive to and up until now my understanding was that data transfer using I2s and USB are the bases for superior data performance. Currently I use I2s output from a PS Audio Direct Stream Memory Player to a Denafrips Terminator dac and speaking for myself to date I am experiencing the best most enjoyable digital playback in my home so far . The I2s cable I use is WireWorlds platinum starlight their top HDMI cable which I found to outperform by a good margin PS Audios supplied Kimbercable I2s cable , is the WireWorld cable worth $700.00 I couldn’t say . Anyway I find this cable subject interesting especially Audioengr comments and test results which got me to order his reference coax cable . |
I found I2S when used with PS Audio devices to be superior to all...S/PDIF, USB, Optical. With I2S. the power and data stream travel thru different conductors thereby reducing noise and interference. USB is susceptible to noise since the data and power source are combined and travel thru the same conductor. Noise may be from a computer, the type of power supply, or grounding issue. That's why some sort of decrapifier like the Schiit Wyrd or an Empirical Audio device is needed. |
A variable cap and variable resistor on the input termination of the dac, and then use a scope to look..and tune a perfect edge on the input waveform. I used to do that in hardwired video installs for custom built CRT projection systems. tuned both ends of the transmission line. cheap as all get out, best signal quality. slightly outside of the capabilities of most but definitely doable. other than that, it is the liquid metal cables, where the impedance is not a set aspect and dynamically adjusts to the signal and the termination in all given potential points of the line itself, in any given microsecond. Besides being capable of handling DC to MHz-GHz range signals. No other digital S/PDIF cable can come close to those specs. It's a honey badger cable ---as honey badger doesn't care. Although, not so inexpensive. Jim will need something extra. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL-3eU67wOc |
