Logitech Squeezebox Touch DAC: How Good?

Ok, now that I have several hours experience with the unit, I'll talk a little bit about the sound. However, I won't be able to comment on comparisons with DAC's until this weekend when I borrow my friend's Bryston.

System: Cary SLI-80, Silverline SR17.5, Cary 308T cdp, EAR 834p modified phono. Interconnects Cardas Golden Ref, speaker cable Audience AU-24, powerc(h)ord mostly Audience. (no "e" levels alas...).

The analog outs sound very, very lovely, with natural level of detail. Neutral, perhaps a tad more neutral than my 308T, but generously musical. Deep bass, but not as deep as the 308T. The sound has a couple of problems at this point that prevent it from entering the league of my 308T, or turntable, or any other source I've been using over the years: (1) it is very polite. (2) it is somewhat flat sounding. I'm not getting depth of image. On wireless there is a slightly ghostly quality.

That said, having spent even a few minutes using this thing, it is hard to go back to any kind of spinning platter. It is very enjoyable and great fun - for natural music like classic, jazz, singers, etc. It seems not dynamic enough for rock or pop, but my system is not designed for rock anyway (that's for the car and Shuffle with Westones at the gym:-) . So I suspect that it is not fair for me to evaluate the Touch on music that my system is not designed for.

The Touch appears to be a keeper, but so far at least, I will be pulling out my spinning disks for serious listening.

Perhaps that will change with the addition of an external DAC?

I can comment on how this compares to the Devilsound that I use in my home office and have tried in my main system. It does seem a bit clearer than the Devilsound.

All of my music is ripped in iTunes at both 256 and Apple lossless. I use the smaller versions on small capacity ipods for gym and travel, and lossless for serious listening and large capacity ipod. In direct comparisons last night, it was hard to hear a difference between 256 and lossless. Again, perhaps an external DAC here will reveal greater differences.

I tried playing the Touch using iTunes as a source from my MacBook Pro wirelessly, and also, from an SDHC card directly. In my relatively brief testing, the SDHC card sounded a bit more saturated, full of color.

I intentionally used the SDHC card (32GB) rather than a spinning hard drive to avoid issues of electronic noise. The SDHC card has 256 bit rate versions of the music.

I played the Touch with the volume all the way up, and rely on the volume control of the amp for control.

I found setup of the Touch very straightforward until I began to alternate between sources, and also alternate between using the Mac to control it rather than the screen or remote. Alternating sources or control units is very tricky - to me, anyway. Also the online control unit froze up use of Firefox for any other concurrent purpose. I wish I could use iTunes as the control interface rather than the Squeezebox software - which is not bad BTW. Perhaps that is possible, we shall see.

Having access to radio stations from all over the world is a revelation to me, but Squeezebox owners are used to this for a long time now I guess, going back to generation 1, right?

That's about all I can think of to say at this point. It does sound way better than a cheap cd player. I can't really compare it to better cd players or turntable since it seems to have its own sound. I've never heard any source component have this combination of neutrality, detail, musicality, robust bass, yet flawed with a dominating politeness (lack of dynamics?) and flatness of perspective.

Caveat: Many of you know from personal experience that a few hours of experience with a component is premature to draw firm, fixed conclusions, so I reserve the right to update as things progress.

Art

Thanks for the comment Dick. I suspect that the Touch will retain a high level of used value for quite some time so particularly at it's price, it's a safe bet to try out. And you might find that it fills your needs just fine without a DAC. In my system it is definitely very enjoyable.

BTW, Cardas Golden Ref would probably not be the interconnect of choice to liven up a "flat" sounding source, so I may end up experimenting with that. I love CGR in virtually all applications but perhaps Nordost here?

Also I'm runing Mac OS 10.5.8 "Leopard". Rumors are that the 10.6.x "Snow Leopard" actually sounds better when driving a Squeezebox. Who knows - we shall see.

The Bryston DAC test will be very very interesting :-)

So far I'm finding that going using the analog outs of the Touch (Cardas Golden Ref interconnects into Cary SLI-80 into AU-24 into Silverline SR-17.5's), the following all sound very similar:
a. wireless out of my Mac (Leopard, not Snow Leopard) with cds ripped at 256,
b. wireless out of my Mac, with cds ripped Apple Lossless, and
c. SDHC card containing the 256 bit rate rips.

They all sound VERY musical, not fatiguing at all, with sufficient and extension to be very enjoyable. They are less saturated and less detailed and less extended than the sound out of my cd player (Cary 308T).

That said, it is EXTREMELY enjoyable. Somehow the convenience of flipping from album to album instantly, then jumping to internet radio - classical music out of France and Eastern Europe, .... there is HUGE pleasure in this.

I am increasingly curious to try a DAC with the Touch. Will probably happen early this coming week with a Bryston loaner from a good friend.

(DAN, the entire high end audio community of the planet earth is sitting on the edge of their seat waiting for you to lend me the Bryston DAC! ;-)

Art

Thanks for the note Tony, it sounds similar to my experience on the analog side. I'll check out your note.

To be fair to Dan, actually I'm real busy too so it's more that we need to find a mutually convenient time.

Art

UPDATE: Well I'm getting great sound via analog and even better via digital outs into a DAC, and the SDHC card (32GB) works great, and internet radio works perfectly, and connection to my Mac-based server is superb.

USB hard connection is very flakey, not quite ready for prime time.

And switching from controlling the player via direct touch to the Logitech-supplied remote and then back works fine, but switching to a player on my Mac is just about hopeless (perhaps I'm doing it wrong?).

Cannot comment on hi rez files, I only use music ripped from cd to Apple Lossless or 256 bit rate.

On balance I am thrilled with this thing and already bought a second one for the bedroom, and can see my days of owning a standalone CDP being numbered.

The functionality that works well is flat out spectacular.

Art

CW, my iTunes libraries are organized for sync'ing with my various iPods. The Squeezebox Touch seems to like it just fine. I use the wifi connection and the Touch finds the database on my Mac no problem. I don't remember whether I tried the PC or not (different iTunes libraries) but from what I hear it is just as easy.

SmHoll, I've been using the Bryston BDA-1 DAC that I borrowed from Dan.

BTW, yesterday evening we have a major shootout with me, Dan and Brent:
- SB Touch analog outs (Mac server)
- SB Touch digital out to Bryston BDA-1 (Mac server)
- Cary 308T cdp player with tube output stage
- MacBook Pro USB output to Bryston BDA-1 USB input
- MacBook Pro USB to Empirical anti-jitter device to Bryston BDA-1 digital input

Results of the first three were similar to my earlier brief testing. The Touch analog out is very, very satisfying, but the Bryston and Cary are better at isolating images in space, and better at bass control. The Cary seems a touch more "human" (presumably due to the tubes).

Bottom line is that I do NOT feel compelled to get a DAC for the Touch even though this is my high end audio system! And, I don't feel that getting a DAC would be a waste so I might do that in coming months.

Caveat: interconnects are RCA Cardas Golden Reference, which, as many of you know, have a nice musical touch of their own.

BTW, much of the testing was done blind. As in, blindfolded!

ALSO,

Mac to Bryston USB input sounded distorted!
Mac to Empircal anti-jitter device to Bryston digital input was fantastic.

Finally, today I called Squeezebox support and they are well aware of the two problems I along with others been having:
- USB drives directly connected to the Touch. They are working on this and are hopeful that it will be a software fix.
- Player on the Mac working intermittently (I find the server works great, rock solid, but player often can't find the Touch to control it.)

Overall happy camper.
Art

On first listen is is hard to find any differences at all! After a few minutes though, it becomes clear that the Touch is very enjoyable, and does not have any serious flaws that make it harsh or uninviting but compare to 308T and Bryston/Empirical, it has (a) somewhat looser bass and (b) flatter presentation. Both the 308T and the Empirical-Bryston would place a singer or instrument more clearly in space horizontally and vertically and have a bit more depth of field. Also they had a bit better bass control. The 308T seemed extremely similar to the Empirical Bryston at first but over time there was a lifelike quality, very subtle, that tubes often have over solid state.

I suspect that playing the Touch without direct A/B to other sources I'll end up just enjoying it.

BTW, I forgot to mention that we also tested my Devilsound briefly. In a high end setup it sounds very vague and ill-defined compared to the others, and it is particularly less detailed and refinced than the Touch. However it does haver its own cabling and so does not benefit from the Cardas Golden Ref. I will continue to use the Devilsound in my home office.

Art

>Are you using the Empirical Audio Pace Car or Off Ramp >jitter device?
>Regards,
>Bill

Heck if I know - it was borrowed. My friend said it had retailed for around $1000, does that help?
Art