Let's talk music, no genre boundaries

To change the topic entirely, I am not a huge Dylan fan. With all the great poets in the world, I didn't think he deserved the Nobel Prize in Literature. I do have a lot of his albums and play them from time to time. I am probably a bigger Judy Collins fan. I have worn out a few of her albums and had to look for mint copies on the used market. So, I'm posting Judy Collins singing "Just Like Tom Thumb Bllues," one of my favorite cuts. You'll see th album cover on my post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcCcA6O6QLU

@mahgister 

Thanks -- too bad about the SQ issues. 

@audio-b-dog 

Was he given the award for poetry?  If so, I’d agree with you.

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, he’d received it for songwriting. 

It’s a (in my opinion) popular misconception that song lyrics are poetry set to music. Songwriting is a discipline all its own, and not at all an easy one, if one wishes to become even moderately skilled. 

If the award was given to him as a songwriter, I cannot disagree with the committee. He, more than anyone, opened the door to writing song lyrics that honestly and unflinchingly address human experience. Yes; he drew upon the influence of others-- Delta Blues, UK and US folk song, Hank Williams, Standards, etc. but he synthesized these diverse influences in a way that no-one had before while at the same time developing a unique creative voice and perspective. In my view, he is a titanic figure in American music. Without Dylan, I very much doubt there would have been a John Prine, Joni Mitchell, Kris Kristofferson, Neil Young, Robert Hunter, Robbie Robertson, Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, James Taylor or Jackson Browne, to name but a few.  Who else has had exerted such an influence upon the craft? While I don’t listen to all of his output, there are certain periods I still enjoy very much. 

You’re comparing Judy Collins singing Dylan to Bob Dylan writing "Just LIke Tom Thumb’s Blues" but Dylan didn’t get the award for his singing. There are thousands of competent singers who could sing that song. But they couldn’t have written it. 

If anyone says I failed to list all of Dylan’s influences, they are of course, correct. Jazz, Vaudeville, Bluegrass, Singing Cowboys, Urban Blues, Country artists in addition to Hank, Gospel are some others, not to mention poets and novelists. . . 

And while it's true the lyricist from teh so-called "Golden Age of Songwriting" addressed plenty of "grown up" topics, it was typically obliquely, often utilizing clever word-play to suggest and imply, rather than spell out clearly. No doubt there's a craft and certain sophistication to such an approach but it also adheres to social taboos that many who grew up in the 50's and 60's found to be claustrophobic and stifling to the spirit.  

@stuartk 

I'm listening to Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil." It is beautifully recorded on Qobuz. Otherwise I would have bought the album. Thanks for the tip.

Dylan might have received the Nobel Prize for Literature. I can't remember. I know what you're saying about song writing being different than poetry, but some song writers are much more poetic than others. Probably Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell go on the top of my list for poetics. Also Paul Simon. I think the best poem/song Dylan ever wrote was "All Along the Watchtower." It works like a poem with an open ending to draw the reader in, and have them go back and pay more attention to what led up to the open ending.

I'm not comparing Judy Collins singing to Bob Dylan's writing. I just think that's the best version of "Tom Thumb's Blues" I've ever heard. Did you catch Ry Cooder's guitar? He's unmistakeable. There are a few musicians I can always tell. Stevie  Wonder's harmonica. In jazz, of course, Coltrane's sax and Miles Davis' trumpet. Stan Getz and Chet Baker. I don't think we ever talked about Paul Desmond and the west coast jazz players on the jazz forum. I am a fan. 

Back to Bob Dylan. I had some musician friends when I was at Berkeley and I remember one, David Lieberman, excitedly playing "Hey Mister Tamborine Man" for me. He had never heard anything like it. Although, I don't know if you could say a new type of song writing wouldn't have happened without Dylan. Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus at the same time. To me that proves that when something is ready to happen, it will. But, yes, let's give Dylan credit. The biggest problem I have with him is the misogyny in his songs. Women often take a bad rap. And on that topic of gender, I must admit that "Mr. Jones" was brilliantly filled with inference.

But if any song writer should have gotten the Nobel Prize for Literature, I think it should have been Leonard Cohen, who was a poet as well as song writer. I don't think he was influenced by Dylan, but having Dylan open up the field for new types of music probably helped him. I heard Dylan interviewed and he compared himself to Paul Simon. He said he couldn't write melodies like Simon. He wrote words and put them on old tunes. I don't know if that's always true, but it is true a lot of the time.

@audio-b-dog 

You’re welcome.

I’d certainly agree that some songwriters are more poetic. I’d also agree that there would’ve been some sort of change in approach to songwriting in the 60’s/70’s without Dylan, but who can say what that would have been?  It may well be that due to growing up when I did, I’m according Dylan more credit than he deserves. I’m not a scholar.  I’m not a huge fan of P. Simon so I don’t feel I can be very objective comparing him to Dylan. Joni Mitchell has spoken about two Major influences : Dylan and the crooners such as Bing Crosby as embodying, respectively, the virtues of open ended lyric writing and melody. She saw both as crucial. Dylan, in an interview with Dan Rather (who’s done a series of surprisingly good interviews with musical icons from 60s’70’s) asserted he "didn’t know who wrote" his early songs such as Gates of Eden. He said after a certain point, he could no longer write that way, as if some magic had dispersed. 

As far as misogyny goes, there is plenty of blame to go around, in various genres/fields. This question of whether /to what degree, an artist’s bad behavior  should/shouldn’t shape our view of his art has come up before on the forum. For some, it’s a gray area; for others, it’s black and white. Edward Weston cheated on his wife a lot. To what degree should this affect my appreciation for his photographs? If I reject his work, does that improve the lives of women? What do you think?