Exertfluffer:
In particular I wished to address your question about crossover upgrades. A bit of background...
I have a home theater setup using all Klipsch heritage speakers, Forte's L/R & surround, Academy center, KG2 rear (these are not heritage, never mind on these)...you get the idea.
Visiting the Klipsch website for over a year I realized that there was MUCH debate and conjecture regarding crossover upgrades, and I decided to investigate. Over the last few months I designed and manufactured a new, better quality crossover network using two cojoined PCBS, and components from manufacturers such as Madisound, Auiricap, Solen, Dayton, and Mills.
Just this past weekend I had the opportunity to install my networks into the front Forte's. Mind you, like most I was skeptical about the results. I listened to a variety of DVD's with different types of music in the soundtrack - jazz, orchestration, big band, rock.
My immediate response to the network swap out was one of:
a) Improved clarity - it was like "removing the hiss" from
a cassette tape; there was no more noise in the high end.
b) Better dynamics - the better S/N ratio allowed me to
bring up the volume about 5dB, without any of the
harshness I was accustomed to.
c) Sound stage - the sound stage deepened appreciably, so
much that it seemed to improve my unmodified speaker
(the center channel).
Conclusion: I DO believe in the merits of crossover upgrades, and in fact am planning to market these boards as kits or full assemblies. I very much enjoy my Klipsch speakers and did not believe I could improve on them, but I did.
Chris
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A True Klipsch Story. In my first year of college I went to a George Thoroughgood concert that was being held in a smallish venue, a couple hundred seats at most. On either side of the stage were two compact black speakers with a distinctive double scalloped front baffle. I said to my buddy, "What kind of pussyass speakers are these? I thought George was gonna tear the roof off this place." He smiled a knowing smile and said, "Just keep at least 15 feet away from those babies or you're gonna set your earwax on fire. Those are Klipsches and they can crank!" Well, George and the Destroyers did not disappoint. They were just great, and the Klipsches (La Scalas) were positively awesome. Tremendous clarity, limitless impact and absolutely present. I have seldom heard better concert sound, and they left an indelible impression. |
Exertfluffer - You can find that thread and the links in my last response hereTo find any previous contributions to forums you can use the link "My Page" then log-in if you have not, click on "Forums Threads" and it will give you a list of your threads within the past month. You can also click another link to get your complete history on that same page that comes up. Marco |
Jax2, could you point it out to me? Maybe I'm a little dense with link-searching, but I don't seem to find the thread/your response. Thx |
Exertfluffer - If you'll look back on your previous identical question regarding where to find the crossover upgrades that you asked on another Klipsch thread you will find that I answered your question and provided the links to the ALK site, as well as a review of their products on Enjoy the Music site.
Marco |
Exertfluffer:
They DID improve the design. When Klipsch bought Mondial they had the Mondial designers re-vamp the Khorn and, I think, the other heritage speakers. New crossovers and drivers were installed along with a wiring upgrade. The result is spectacular. |
My experience from having sold Klipsch's over the last 10 years, as well as owning them, is that "they got potential"...I'll say that. The pressence and sensitivity of these horn speakers offers a "you are there" feeling and effortlessness to the sound that "has something" indeed.
I've gotten excellent sonic results simply using cheeper SB series Klipsch's with tube gear in the past. On other occasions, with most standard midfi and even higher end SS gear, I've not gotten such great results often!..but depended.
What I'm saying is that I really wish the Klipsh's I've encountered/dealt with were more refined and musical sounding, like many of the ultra high end speakers I've also sold over the years(Wilson,Thiel,Magnapan,etc, etc)!
What I've noticed, as mostly budget parts with Klipsch's is "harshness, lack of refinement, often foreward even bright sound (although most of the midfi klipsch's aren't bright, just ragged and plain sounding, if just warm tonally).
I've heard so many times people mention "crossover upgrades" for Klipsch's(at least higher end K's). I would very very very much like to know more about this! Does it work?..with what specific Klipsch's??? Also, where do you get the crossover upgrades?
My wishes over the years has indeed been some way to improve the Klipsch's. Or at least that Klipsch would come out with some more refined higher end offerings! Still, I've gottend good results tinkering with their budget line...often prefering it to anything else they've made.
The older higher end line (K-horns, Lascala's, etc, whatever) I've never heard sound good yet, but I can tell the potential!
What I like about horns is their dynamic ease, relative detail, pressence, authority, and focus! AS a passive design, horn speakers from Klipsch can do wonders as passive counterparts to a good HT system at the very least!...dynamic, dynamic, dynamic!..and very involving, upfront, and surefooted sounding, if not just plain fun!
Many of the standard high end speakers just are too laid back, in-efficient, polite, and weak sounding for HT dubties, in all but the smallest of room settings, with perfect acoustics! Horns just have some excellent advantages!(like Avantgarde's...which drop off like a rock wshen you listen "off-axis"!..really the sound just goes away!...making seating critical for enjoyment).
I really wish someone would give me "the whole low-down" on the Klipsch mod's and "upgrades" for the crossovers and such! Anyone?... |
sean,the tips that i got came from jax2 in a previous thread,my khorns were never an issue,man do they sound good,
the cornwalls were a pain in the ass to get to sound like anything,they sounded almost flat so i took marcos advice & concentrated on the xovers & after i swapped the xovers the sound was 100% better,not just better but true with complete seperation.
loontoon,i believe that you are correct about the amps.
to me the tube vs ss issue is purely a matter of the quality of your amps, i have ran tubes with great success but i have also had great results with ss due to the fact that my amps are a great match,im 1 of the die hard mcintosh fans, everybody has their own opinion on great amps
& as mcintosh has always been good to me i stick with it.
eldartford,your description of the khorns you heard took the words out of my mouth,i run the khorns & cornwalls in quad & the total sound that im getting now has flabergasted
me,i have never heard anything sound so true to life,last evening i listened to miles davis bitches brew which is my favorite album & even after hearing it thousands of times i was floored during miles runs the voodoo down.
the reason i wrote this thread was beacuse my gear far out classes or far out spends(which ever you prefer)my speakers
& when i couldnt get the sound i wanted i thought i needed to change speakers but now that im in love with the sound again i have lost the urge to get into another quest for perfection,i wanted to hear some other peoples experiences with klipsch just to make sure that in my moment of glory i wasnt hearing things that werent there,at this point im gonna stick with my current rig & speakers & just listen while im happy with everything as its been a long time scence i sat & listened without finding fault in somthing in my system.
thanks to all with special thanks to jax2,regards, mike. |
I only got rid of my cornwalls and heresys to make the wife happy. Took up way too much real estate.
Honestly though, you need a seriously massive room to get good imaging out of them. |
Read what ole J. Gordon himself had to say about Klipsch in the current stereophile.
Biggest audio mistake I made was selling my 4 JBL L200's when I left the quad revolution. They still make me Horny!!!!
As long as your enjoying them, that's what counts.
Have Fun. |
Perhaps the most realistic music reproduction I have ever heard was an excellent recording of Sousa marches played through a pair of Khorns, using excellect electronics in a dedicated room. The Tubas would flap your trouser legs, and the trumpets blazed forth from the midrange horn driver.
And this from a Maggie fan! |
I had old K-horns, my own designs and Maggies.
I miss the midbass and the slam of the K-horns, they can be harsh sounding, it's not a tube or SS, it an amp quality issue.
The great tube vs SS debate to me still comes down to this:
A used $600 SS amp will sound poorly compared to a used $600 tube unit on a lot of speakers, those that tend to etch detail, (read bright).
However, with great amps (SS or toob), either way the issue is moot.
The K-horns need the X/O not tweaked but completely re-worked. Also damp the horns with foam, expandable type in the can, but (wax the horns first with Turtle wax, just in case you ever need to get them out. A nice layer, allowed to dry works fine, don't buff as with a car finish.
The K-horns still outside of the Avengardes, have the most realistic dynamics of any speaker I know of, the Ave's are in a whole nother league.
Tubes at budget amp prices work well, but a really good SS unit is also an excellent mate. Find a smalled used Levinson, which is a tad dark sounding, plug it in and forgedaboutit.
loon |
I used Klipsch for about 12 years. They are great rock n roll speakers. I made the mistake of stopping in the local Tweeter and hearing a pair of Vienna Acoutics Beethoven's.
Try something else and see what you think. If your happy with the Klipsch,you save a ton of cash.
Tim |
Sean- Yes, we've had this discussion before in another thread, which is one I think worthy of Joe reading. That's why I pointed out your suggestion regarding cabinet bracing and to search for some of your input on the subject. Also the wiring harness could stand much improvement (replacement), the seal of the cabinets on some models as well as drivers to cabinet seals on enclosed models. I've found that dampening the horns on the larger models (Khorn, Belle, LaScala) also helps. Built to a pricepoint? Absolutely. There aren't that many products that most folks can afford that are not built to a pricepoint. What's your point there? The few that aren't are not affordable. I can't think of an exception - can you suggest one? Regardless of their build they have been very rewarding speakers for me to own and listen to the music I love through. I have no doubt they would be to many others, in spite of what may be considered flaws by some. I do wish that the company had pursued further development and refinement of Paul's designs instead of focusing more on mass-market products.
Marco |
Joe: If you don't mind me asking, can you tips that you received be found on the web? If so, can you point us t them?
Marco: All "classic" Klipsch models need major surgery if you really want to hear what the drivers can do. These are speakers that were VERY much built to a price-point. The fundamentals are there, but the execution is quite lacking.
Dave: you can have dynamics and tone so long as you have enough power and your speakers don't go into compression at a rapid rate : ) Sean
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Mahandave:
The new Klipschorns possess amazing dynamics and GREAT tonality. These are not your grandfather's Khorns! |
Anyone who bashes Klipsch does not value the dynamics they provide as much as those who love klipsch. Dynamics is the most important factor in speakers second only to tone. Some value tone so much as to not care about dynamics at all- to each their own. Some value dynamics at the expense of tone- you cant have both in most cases. There is an inverse relationship to the two. Klipsch=great dynamics and ok tone which in just fine for many people. On the other side of the world is Quad=great tone and poor dynamics. Also fine for many people. if people would understand this trade-off and buy a couple of speakers to cover this divergance they would be a lot more happy instead of buying one and bashing the other concept. |
I have built a vintage system with the Ported Industrial Heresey's, a Scott 340B receiver, and a Sony 5520 automatic turnrable. Although this system isn't as dynamic as my "big rig," the midrange when listening to jazz keeps me involved for hours. This combination keeps me wondering why I spent so much money buying all the newer gear. |
I owned Heresey's and La Scalas. I loved them. But my tastes changed. They never had the detail and micro dynamics I wanted. Thus I moved to something that did--almost the opposite end of the spectrum--Electrostatics (great imaging, great micro-dynamics, but not as overall dynamic--and certainly not efficient). Anyway, I still think the older Klipsch are fabulous speakers--but they currently are not the right speaker for me, and perhaps you have come to the same conclusion. |
You already know how I feel Bigjoe, and I've posted those sentiments to a few of the threads I've answered on this subject. I do believe you are quite correct about the setup and the gear you are using them with. I've heard them sound utterly unlistenable if set up to their disadvatage with SS gear. Then again, there seems to be a large group of supporters like yourself and others using Vintage Klipsch speakers along with SS and having very pleasing results, so go figure. Sean has made some interesting comments about improving the cabinets with bracing to get better sound, and, as you know there are many folks out there tweaking them in other ways. My LaScala SET system seems to impress most folks, audiophile and non alike, who come and listen to it. I think it has remarkable clarity and holographic presence. I think folks who are used to a more conventional 'rounder, softer' sounding speaker (those are my non-audiophile terms), could find the vintage Klipsch sound a bit to stark and harsh at times. I'll be curious too to hear some responses to this thread. I think the longevity of the technology and design of Paul W. Klipsch is truly remarkable in a world of technology that is changing at the speed of light. Same goes for Peter Walker and Quad. These brilliant pioneers designed products that still to this day, some 50 years after they were conceived of, still sound quite wonderful when settup right. Can they be outdone......are they the best? Yes and no, respectively. Certainly tecnology now offers all kinds of advantages in computer-enhanced engineering and design. Materials and components also have changed benefiting from the same. Klipsch, the company, took a turn in the opposite direction, IMO, when Paul sold the company to his relatives many years ago, and now their offerings cater more to midfi and entry level to compete with the likes of Bose. Quad certainly seems to have used the advances in technology to build on it's original foundation and raise the bar. I wish Klipsch had gone that direction. Instead the only two remaining designs of Paul's they still sell, the Khorn and LaScala (don't know if the "Jubilee" ever made it for public sale), remain relatively unchanged, and reportedly still sound damn good. Still, for not a whole lot of money you can have a very rewarding system using old technology that doesn't give up much for it's age, and you can find it right here in the used market, or at a pawn shop or garage sale going for bargain prices and offering a very satisfying voice to a thoughfully put-together system.
Marco |
Joe:
I have a pair of 2002 Klipschorns and have switched back and forth between them and Martin Logans, Thiels, Audiostatics, Magnepans, Piegas and even 35k Impact Airfoils. I can say without hesitation that the Klipschorns are THE most enjoyable speaker I have ever owned. With the right equipment (Wavelength Cardinals, for example) they are as lifelike and natural as ANYTHING out there. Those who bash Klipschorns simply have not heard them set-up under optimal conditions.I am also speaking of the newer model with updated crossover and wiring. An old pair with cheap wiring and posts, etc. will necessarily be limited by such factors. This 50+ year old design is still one of the best around! |
