@jackd
Thank you. I have 4 amps, all with SE inputs so if that volume control is unbearable, I guess I'll have to think about returning it. I do use the volume control often since I use this system from multiple sources. I really hope that it works out for me though. I've been hearing such good things about this BHK Pre. |
@jwlaudio
One way around it once you figure out the "sweet spot" volume for each source is to mute before changing the volume level then un-mute. Anyway even though it doesn't have all the remote conveniences and input options of the BHK I much prefer the sound and lack of quirks with the Supratek Chardonnay at a far lower price. Same is true of the Don Sachs preamp. |
@jackd
Just wondering how much better your BHK/EX-M7 and Chardonnay/EX-M7 combos sounded than your EX-M1 and in what ways?
A while back I tried to downsize my tube pre/tube amp combo to the EX-M1 (original) but although the EX-M1 was very impressive with low noise floor, dynamics, detail, speed, smoothness, PRaT etc, I just wanted a touch more palpability, organic-ness and ended up selling the EX-M1. Also the EX-M1 had way too much gain, even on low gain setting.
I’m now thinking the EX-M7 with my tube pre-amp might get me to where I want to be. Or, if I need to lose more gain, the Athena and EX-M7.
Also, I can’t find how much gain the EX-M7 has, do you know?
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So much information to sort thru here. May as well add to the fog.
1st let me say I really, like the ‘unity gain’ style of preamps. I like the simplicity, the feel, and the quality. Being fed by a Benchmark Dac3 HGC, I’ve run direct, 0,10, and 20 db attenuation, into the Hyperion & thru the Hestia/Athena. I have both.
I find the Denafrips transparent to the source voiced primarily around depth, tone, and dynamics. They have a certain gravitas and plenty of ‘drive’, particularly in their size/price catagory. The voicing may be in regards to the class A biasing. The case can be made that they are unique exquisitely mfg products.
I run Roon thru a Nuc filtered thru a top end Audio Magic conditioner I’ve modded with Jupiter copper caps on the receptacles. I’ve 3 dedicated circuits w/10g wiring, & spent a lot of time rolling caps thru the filter stages, Jupiter’s, Cu V-Caps, Duelands, Mundorf SGO, ect… So I would say that my digital source preference is shaded to what the Jupiter caps bring to the table.
My room is big, 800-1200 sf. and I’ve rolled at least 9 pr. of speakers thru the room, but currently live with the Zu DW’s with (of course) Jupiter caps. Let’s leave the analog, tape and tubes aside for now.
The voltage input of the Dac3 does effect the voicing of the system, in general the lower the voltage input the more perceived warmth with or without the preamps. The less voltage the less attack, or leading edge.
Dac direct, at full output, you can introduce a touch of the dreaded digital glare. Just a touch.
I understand and have experienced the perceived warmth of the Denafrips voicing as relates to digital and have found it to more naturally align with my analog sources. Both cassette and vinyl sounded more at home with the Denafrip amps, until…
I brought in a subwoofer to properly ‘load the room’. I’ve a very good upper corner placement that has enabled a Rel T9i to bring in the 30-40hz and ‘what do you know’, everything has just fallen in place. My room now sounds the best I’ve attained in over 20+ years of playing around, with tubes and power supplies and speakers, and preamps, ect…
i luv my Hyperion/Hestia. (-;
Now if I could just find the order of tubes for the downstairs system that DHL says was delivered yesterday.
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@dkerr
I have both the original M1 and the current M1+ with the new volume control that rectifies the high gain issue completely and appears from memory to be a slight bit warmer than the original but that could just be a perception from having more flexibility with the volume control.
As to the issue of the M7 and tube preamps. I didn't really think the match with the BHK was bad just didn't have the warmth and magic that the pairing with the two 6SN7 preamps have. Though the BHK has some degree of the tube feel and more so with the 12 volt tubes it's not at all like what you get from a 6SN7 preamp. I do think the M7 is a great amp on it's own but it will not and does not sound like a tube amp. It is neutral and honest. The closest thing to it that I have owned was the JOB 225. What you put in was what you got out. My BHK 250 and AVA SET 400 are far "warmer". So how the pairing of your preamp and the M7 would go would depend mostly on where on the warmth scale your preamp is. |
The Kinki EX-M1 is awesome. Great amplifier with loads of power, extremely black background and great imaging. I’m very happy with mine! |
@jackd
As to the issue of the M7 and tube preamps. I didn't really think the match with the BHK was bad just didn't have the warmth and magic that the pairing with the two 6SN7 preamps have. Though the BHK has some degree of the tube feel and more so with the 12 volt tubes it's not at all like what you get from a 6SN7 preamp. I do think the M7 is a great amp on it's own but it will not and does not sound like a tube amp. It is neutral and honest. The closest thing to it that I have owned was the JOB 225. What you put in was what you got out. My BHK 250 and AVA SET 400 are far "warmer". So how the pairing of your preamp and the M7 would go would depend mostly on where on the warmth scale your preamp is.
Thanks Jack. The Herron VTSP-3 (6 x 6922's) is pretty neutral and low noise for a valve pre. Probably less tubey sounding than 6SN7 based preamps. It is not at all syrupy, sweet, lush, soft etc but has excellent transparency, detail, body, dynamics and organicness. The Rogue Stereo 100 (4 x KT120's) is also pretty neutral for a tube amp with big dynamic but controlled bass, wonderful 3D imaging and dimensionality, the walls just disappear, so human and organic sounding. Cranked up Money For Nothing yesterday and the growling electric guitar and big opening drums were just awesome. Such natural tone and body. I (mostly) loved the original EX-M1 except for way too much gain, a slight unnatural stiffness or overdamped characteristic that I couldn't listen around, and a slight lack of body and organicness/humanity. But I did love the EX-M1's detail, dynamics, immediacy, resolution and liveliness, all presented in a smooth, refined manner. If it had a touch more organicness, humanity, body (and not the strange stiffness) then I would have sold the tube gear and reduced the number of boxes and cables in my system. That's why I'm contemplating whether the blend of my tube preamp and the EX-M7 would get me my ideal tonal balance (what I have now but moved just a touch more toward the fast/exciting end from the full-bodied/relaxed end of the spectrum). The other option would be to blend a sligthly sunnier preamp with the Rogue tube amp but then I can't explain to my wife that the new equipment is to get the power amp off the top of the cabinet and into a shelf so that she can put whatever photos, knick knacks and ornaments she likes on top of the cabinet :-) |
Just another note as this thread and much of audiophile searching in the wilderness is about achieving the elusive ‘perfect voicing’ of ones system.
The critical focus put upon a preamp to mediate source to power.
sns seems to have a Coincident 101D preamp.
Here r the mfg specs…
Specifications
Type: Vacuum tube stereo linestage
Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 30 kHz (+/- 0.2dB)
Gain: 20dB
Output Impedance: 500 Ohms
Output Voltage: Greater than 30V
Features: Dual Mono Transformer Coupled Volume Pots
Inputs: Balanced inputs via XLR and unbalanced via RCA
Outputs: Two pairs of RCA outputs for bi-amp'ing;
One pair of balanced outputs on XLR
AC ground lift permits AC ground lift to eliminate hum caused by ground loops.
Dimensions: 203 x 260 x 390 (HxWxD in mm)
Weight: Power supply is 40.7 lbs. and linestage is 30.8 lbs.
AC Voltage: User selectable- 115v, 230V
Price: $4999
So a question. What do you think, >than 30V sounds like, on an amp looking for 4V input? Based on my limited messing around with voltage variance into the Hyperion, I would suggest you hear more of the flavor of what is input. GIGO.
Though voiced slightly to the organic side of neutral, there is no way Hyperion performs as described above. The thing has balls and a ‘bit’ of colour. My experience is that music has soul in a Denafrips system, one feels the heartbeat of the music, not as an intellectual exercise. It’s liquid not clinical. The voltage regulated preamps preamps pass what they r fed and even the BHK appears to output 4V through its balanced outs, which is perfect for the Hyperion.
Audiophiles seems to attempt a lot of crappy system matching and then blame it on components. The Denafrips are much more mainstream components with the advantages of ss and a beautiful midrange. They are not veiled, overly dark, or slow. They have authority and time like a 50k stack of Naim gear… |
@regismc , based on specs Statement linestage should be fine match to Hyperion. Statement output impedance 500 ohms, Hestia 400 ohms, Hyperion input impedance 22k, both well matched based on amp input at least 10x higher than pre out. This is by far the most important spec for pre to amp matching.
Output to input sensitivity of Statement to Hyperion is also close to other amps I use with Statement, Coincident Turbo 1v, PL Dialogue Four 880mv, Hyperion 1.8v, Hestia does have much lower output voltage than Statement. Still, I didn't have to run Statement at extremely low range of volume selectors, yes, a bit lower than other amps, Also, the Statement doesn't use volume potentiometers, transformer based volume control doesn't have favored portion of range. Therefore, Hyperion was used within parameters that would allow it to perform at it's highest potential. I stated how I used Hyperion and how it performed in my system, I stand by my comments. As to how it will perform in other systems, I can't say.
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sns, it’s all good. That’s a nice, unique pre, you have there. Nice selection of amps also. I’ve a friend with Khorns but he runs a 6wpc Set. Hyperion sounds voiced more like an ADS speaker than a Klipsch. Late 80’s sealed box vs horns. More Harbeth than ProAc. Thinking thru the Denafrips/Kinki voicing differences compare Teflon base 6sn7 Black Treasures vs the gold metal based Psvane CV181-T. Traditional vs modern tube sound. The Teflon’s all about the mids and tonal richness, the metals emphasize airy, incisive treble energy. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that mixing tubes into the mix of either brand is not optimal. Here’s an interesting take on the Denafrips ‘sister’ brand Musician preamp… https://soundnews.net/accessories/musician-monoceros-preamplifier-review-the-final-frontier-for-your... |
sns, perhaps the 500k output impedance figure is NOT throughout the entire frequency band, but a single measurement. Pretty common with tube preamps and yours is definitely unique. I have no idea however as to why such would only present itself with the Hyperion amp and not other ss amps. Regardless, your attempts show it was not a reasonable match. |
Ie… “When matching preamps to power amps, a general rule of thumb is for the load (amp) input impedance to be at least 10 times higher than the source (preamp) output impedance to provide a suitably flat frequency response. Many prefer using a minimum ratio closer to 20 to 1, or having an amp with input impedance 20 times or more greater than the preamp output impedance.
With solid state preamps, this is generally not a problem since most have output impedance of only a few hundred ohms or less, while most SS amps have input impedance of at least 10K ohms. However, you must pay much closer attention when trying to match tubed preamps to SS amps, since many tubed preamps have an output impedance of several thousand ohms or greater. Another thing to watch is how the output impedance spec is reported, since it is sometimes limited to a measurement at a given frequency such as 1K Hz, while the actual output impedance may vary with frequency. It is not unusual for the output impedance of tubed preamps to rise significantly as the signal approaches a lower frequency of 20 Hz, because of the size of coupling capacitors used in the preamp. In these cases, a low frequency roll off can occur whereby, for the same power output, the lower frequencies drop in output compared to the rest of the frequency range, resulting in a loss of deep bass.
The good news is that most tubed amps have sufficiently high input impedance to allow the use of most preamps, tubed or SS. Also, for SS power amps, input impedances of around 50K ohms and above are common and these amps should work well with the vast majority of tubed and SS preamps.
Only a couple of manufacturers make SS amps with input impedances of 10K ohms (e.g., McCormack DNA500), and a couple (such as Pass) make SS amps with input impedance of 20K ohms. These lower impedance amps would require careful matching with tubed preamps. If you are trying to match a preamp with one of these lower input impedance amps, you should try to find information on your preamp's output impedance throughout the entire frequency range. Some manufacturer's report this information and some do not.” |
Finally, a manufacturer that bridges dac to amp with a unity gain design optimizes both impedance and voltage relationships. The unity gain steps down the voltage and the voltage regulators are an essential function of the preamps. The systems voicing has been carefully considered and designed for. Dropping in a wildcard component will have unpredictable consequences. Many audiophiles go thru myriad system configurations and never fully understand what or why, what effects what. Play around with moving coil cartridges and SUT’s feeding into adjustable phono stages and one will get the idea of how complex and inter-related the system chain really is. There are 100 ways to get it wrong, that’s the fun and the education. Bottomless, always something else to learn. By adding a sub into my system it is much easier to hear which output tap is optimal on a tube amp, in fact it changed my preference. I’m certainly not saying the Denafrips products are end game but like Kinki, offer a high value, low relative cost, solution if the more organic sound of what tubes offer, is desirable in a ss configuration. Of course speaker matching, source, ect. are still ‘make or break’, but if one wants to explore and play a bit on the ‘dark side’, the Denafrips product catalog is fully fleshed and well thought out with all the goodies at attainable, every guy/gal, pricing. The niche they fill, they fill very well. What your ‘absolute sound’ is, is for you to decide. It is a hobby after all.
Here’s a final bit on the importance of voltage…
“If you think of your preamp as a source, and your power amp as a load, then you may consider that maximum power transfer can occur when the output impedance of the preamp matches the input impedance of the power amp. However, in high fidelity audio, it is typically considered optimum to have a source with low impedance connected to a load with high impedance. In that case, the power that can pass through the connection is limited by the higher impedance (so power transfer is not maximum), but the electrical voltage transfer is higher and less prone to corruption than if the impedances had been matched.”
To which almarg replies, “I'll just add a little emphasis to your mention in the first paragraph that power transfer is completely unimportant between preamp and power amp, as well as for any other line-level interfaces. What matters is transferring the signal VOLTAGE accurately”
Denafrips knows what function they need their preamps to provide to their amplifiers. Unity gain, a constant, considered, regulated voltage to impart the optimal audio signal and attain their desired voicing performance, would suggest they don’t wish or require excessive voltage gain at the amps input. If I connect the Benchmark Dac3 direct with 0 attenuation, I can begin to introduce a touch of distortion, a slight ‘digital glare’ that is why Benchmark usually suggest the 10 or 20db pads that yes changes the output impedance, but more important into the 22000k Hyperion, it’s 4V input voltage.
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@jackd
The Verity's are driven by either the BHK 250 or the Kinki EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay.
I noticed that, due to their amps being direct DC coupled, Kinki advise against using their power amps with tube preamps as DC offset could cause tics or pops through the speakers or even burn out voice coils. Did you have any issues feeding the EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay? I'm not sure if it matters but are you using SE or balanced cables betwen them? I can't find any reviews or listening impressions where the EX-M7 (or B-7 monoblocks) have been fed by a tube pre-amp. I was hoping to feed my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp into an EX-M7 rather than go all solid state ... but now I'm a little apprehensive. |
@dkerr
I've used the EX-M7 with both the Supratek Chardonnay via XLR and the Don Sachs Model 2 via RCA and had no problems with either. The problems that Srajen had when he tried both his Nagra and later his Vinnie Rossi preamps had to due with the type of tube regulated power supply they use. You should have no issues with your preamp. The EX-M7 is a single ended amp and the XLR inputs are strictly convenience. I use them so I don't have to swap cables out if I substitute in the BHK 250 which is fully balanced. |
Just an update on the Hyperion and Athena preamp. This has been a really nice combo on several sets of speakers. The Zu DW’s just gobble up the combo and the combo does jazz, rock, blues, folk and grunge with aplomb. More surprisingly to me has been how a pr, of ProAc 1sc thrive with the pairing. Really, these guys will make one rethink using tubes in a system. Initially I thought the pairing too ‘dark’, but something happened. Now it’s a really great combo. I’m not sure if adding the Rel T9i or a solid 4 months of break n’, but just, wow! Everything is done with such conviction, energy, and propulsion you can’t help but be pulled into a connection with the music. The system has fleshy, colorful, textured, mids in a way a bunch of lit bottles are usually required to provide. There’s meat on the bones of the musicians. Visceral and quite addictive, I’ve attempted to roll back in my tube amp, but I keep coming back. This setup is both beauty and beast. Hyperion and Athena does everything well, which really makes it fun. Fronted by a Benchmark Dac3 HGC it got depth, drive, dynamics and detail out the ying/yang. Vinyl/tape fed thru the HGC’s analog input sound terrific also. I can see how this could make a guy give up tubes. There’s plenty of resolution and it’s all in the right places. There is a dimensionality and richness along with authority down low. Cymbals and vibes sound great to, lots of shimmer, bite, and decay. This would be a terrific combo with the new Soul 6, which I can’t afford. At some point I need to try one of the Denafrips dacs, but why, when this is so darn good? |
I’ll go out of my way to mention how good this combo sounds on vinyl. Count Basie and the Kansas City Seven, I Want a Little Girl is pretty damn nice, especially Basie’s organ. Randy Weston, Blue Moses is terrific. This is on a well sorted, modest vinyl rig. VPI Traveler w/the 10” arm, Dynavector 20XL, Bob’s Sky, Eat Glo Petite.
‘What the Denafrips combo brings is a natural timber and spaciousness. Serious dynamics and PRAT that gives everything its own place and location, yet tight and punchy. Thru modest speakers, to my ears, this is a terrific combo, way better than my tube amps or the Yamaha integrated was capable of, there’s just such a richness and density of tone. Effortless, dynamic, relaxed, liquid, yet wide open, deep, robust. It’s not really a fireworks show but really encourages longer listening sessions. It’s more of a joy ride than a thrill ride, but it can keep you glued to your seat. |
I love my new Kinki Studio EX-M1+ I have version 2021 in black it sounds awesome :) |
Do you think are there any changes between version EX-M1 and EX-M1+ in the sound? |
@jackd
I've used the EX-M7 with both the Supratek Chardonnay via XLR and the Don Sachs Model 2 via RCA and had no problems with either. The problems that Srajen had when he tried both his Nagra and later his Vinnie Rossi preamps had to due with the type of tube regulated power supply they use. You should have no issues with your preamp. The EX-M7 is a single ended amp and the XLR inputs are strictly convenience. I use them so I don't have to swap cables out if I substitute in the BHK 250 which is fully balanced.
Thanks Jack, you were spot on. I received my new EX-M7 a couple of weeks ago and it has had no issues being paired with my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp. Fresh out of the box the M7 sounded promising but a little flat and stiff. From around 15 to 35 hours it started to sound better but there was some glare/hardness. Now at 48 hours the glare is gone and it is starting to sound seriously good. Dynamics and leading edges are so quick and snappy yet totally realistic. Strings, horns, pianos, vocals are all so utterly natural sounding, electric guitars are amazing. There is a wonderful purity and lifelikeness to everything. A natural warmth, weight, organicness, immediacy and vitality, even juiciness at times. Surprisingly (to me), I'm not missing my tube amp at all. I haven't reconnected my sub yet but the depth, weight, texture and growliness of bass is making it easy for me to wait until the EX-M7 is fully burned in before doing so. The combination is significantly better than the EX-M1 I had previously. The EX-M1 was impressive in ticking off the requirements on the audiophile list but couldn't quite get me to believe that I was listening to real music and to just relax and drink it in. This combo does that easily and consistently. My floorstanders are rated 93dB/8R (the same as your Otellos) and I still have a little too much gain overall. The DAC is 2.5v from SE output, the Herron VTSP-3 tube preamp is 8dB gain on the low gain setting, the EX-M7 is 26dB gain (tube amp was 29dB). Room is approx 440sq.ft and open to other rooms but even with Harrison Labs -12dB inline attenuators on the EX-M7 SE inputs, my loudest listening level is typically between 35 and 45 (out of 100). I would love to hear the Athena (unity gain) with the EX-M7 in this system as it would drop the overall gain and its fully balanced design would enable me to use my Spring DAC's balanced outputs (which Spring owners claim sound better). As the VTSP-3 is quite neutral and non-tubey sounding anyway, I probably wouldn't lose any "tube sound" but the lower noise floor may improve details, dynamics and immediacy even further. Has anyone here tried an Athena with the Kinki EX-M7, or compared Athena to Kinki EX-P27? Jack, do you have any excess gain issues with the EX-M7 and your Otellos? |
@dkerr
No I haven’t had any excess gain issue with the Supratek/Kinki combo. The Supratek has adjustable gain from 0-26db and I have it set at the halfway mark or about 13db.
If you're willing to look at an SS alternative I would recommend the W4S STP-SE Stage 2. |
Has anyone here tried an Athena with the Kinki EX-M7, or compared Athena to Kinki EX-P27?
Did this about a month ago. Brought my speakers, power amp and a dac around to the local dealer. I was looking for a preamp.
The dealer had a big and expensive pair of Wilsons. I brought in custom made speakers consisting of a 10 inch constant directivity horn with compression driver for the higher frequencies and a 10 inch driver for mid bass duties. These are high efficiency and flat to 40 Hz.
The main source was a Soundaware D300REF. The main dac was a Terminator Plus with Gaia.
Tried the Athena with the Apollo. Sound was ok, but lacked detail and depth. Recessed and dark.
Took out the Apollo and put in my 6CA7 amp. Sounded much better. Detailed, natural and good soundstage.
Took out my amp and put in an EX-M7. That sounded great. Everything was better. Big and deep soundstage, detailed, dynamic, meat on the bones and great bass. Real "you are there" stuff. Did not know my speakers could do that.
Took out the Athena and put in an EX-P27. Backward step. Not much better that the Athena with the Apollo.
We tried different dacs and speakers, as well as every combination of the two preamps and three power amps mentioned above. The clear and obvious winning combination was the Denafrips Athena with the Kinki Studios EX-M7.
I like the idea of matching equipment. I went in thinking the Athena would go with the Apollo and that the EX-P27 would go with the EX-M7. For me, it did not turn out that way. Hope this helps.
P.S. We listened to lots of different music that day. A big surprise for me was that "Here Comes The Sun" is a great recording. Sounded awesome. Guess you just need the right gear to notice.
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