Kinki studio EX-M1, EX-M1+ differences... vs Denafrips Hestia/ Hyperion combo?

@regismc  &  @jackd 

Very interesting reading your comments/experiences on the Kinki and Denafrips gear as I'm considering heading that way.

I'm currently running Auralic G1 > Holo Spring L2 > Herron VTSP-3 > Rogue Stereo 100 > Silverline Sonata III floorstanders (8ohms, 93 dB sensitivity) & Rythmik sealed sub.

Sound is excellent but a few factors are driving me toward some changes: wifey doesn't like the big Rogue sitting on top of the hifi cabinet, the Herron is only single ended but the Spring DAC is best from its balanced outputs and the Rogue is best via its balanced inputs, there is too much gain in the system, I want to try something new. Room is 19' x 22' x 8' and acoustically treated.

My preferred sound is reasonably neutral and "in the middle", not fast/lean/ultra detailed/analytical and not overtly tubey/schmaltzy/euphonic etc. Even though the Herron and Rogue are both tubed, neither is particularly tubey sounding.

In an attempt to downsize last year I tried a Kinki EX-M1 integrated for a while and loved its low noise floor, dynamics, detail and PRaT but it lacked a touch of warmth (partially alleviated by discrete opamps) and there was something in the sound that I couldn't quite live with. Somehow it seemed excessively damped like harmonics were being truncated (sorry if that doesn't make sense but I'm not sure how to properly explain what I heard/sensed) and there was way too much gain, even on the low gain setting. As much as I loved 99% of what it did, something in my subconscious kept telling me that there was something very slightly unnatural about its portrayal. I don't know if this issue stemmed from the pre-amp or power amp section of the EX-M1 (there was no pre-out to test on another amp) so I had to sell it and my subconscious was then able to fully relax again and enjoy the music with my tube gear again.

I'm thinking that step one may be to replace the single ended Herron with the Denafrips Athena which is unity gain and fully balanced (allowing me to get max performance from my current DAC and amp) with a slightly warm and full bodied persona that might maintain much of the sound qualities I get from the Herron tube preamp, and with a lower noise floor that may convey more detail and dynamics.

Step 2 would be the power amp. Once the Athena was bedded I'd know whether I needed to go for an amp that is slightly faster/leaner (Kinki EX-M7 if it doesn't have the same issue I heard with the EX-M1) or slightly more full bodied (Denafrips Thallo). Either of these amps would fit in my cabinet with 2 or 3 inches space above for ventilation (the back of the cabinet is also open). 

I would try to get loaners to try out in my system but I'd be very grateful for your thoughts on whether you feel this strategy makes sense given my stated goals/preferences.
  

@sns 

The extreme darkness, closed in voicing of Hyperion leads me to believe company doesn't voice their products towards the neutral.

After everything I've read on the Hestia/Hyperion/Athena, I don't think that there is any doubt that these units are all more full bodied than the Kinki gear which is (comparatively) cooler/leaner/quicker and more overtly detailed. 

Srajan, who prefers the cooler/leaner/quicker "Swiss" sound, makes this point in his comparisons but notes that the delta is small and that his preference would depend on which speakers were in use or even how lively the room was, that it was a case of fine tuning. His testing of the Hestia and Hyperion together indicates that they are both similarly voiced (and the Terminator too) but he doesn't seem to indicate that even using them together takes these traits too far.  

Obviously it also comes down to personal taste as well but I think that you are the first person I've seen to go so far as to use "extreme darkness and closed in" to describe the Hyperion. I do prefer a touch of warmth, full bodied-ness and organicness to overtly detailed, lean or analytical but extreme darkness makes me think twice about purchasing a Denafrips preamp or amp.

Can I ask what amp(s) you compared in that system that made the Hyperion sound extremely dark and closed in? And the speakers used?
 

@sns  Wow, thanks so much for the detailed response. It provides great context and much for me to think about. 

I've never heard a First Watt amp class A amp but can't go for a class A amp given that one of the justifications for a new amp is that it will fit inside my low profile cabinet (shelves are only about 8" high). I had a big Plinius SA100 mk3 many years ago and liked it but it seemed to have a slight haze that masked detail.

based on your stated sound preferences, I'm not sure any ss will deliver the full measure on those.

That thought has been in the back of my mind too. But the Kinki EX-M1 integrated came VERY close to dislodging my tube preamp AND tube amp. A different sound ... more dynamic, punchy, detailed (but smooth and not bright or aggressive), robust, exciting ... but I wanted for just a touch more organicness, palpability, harmonic completeness ... I love tone more than hyper detail.

Overall my system is fairly neutral but just a little closer to the "full bodied  and relaxing" end than the "faster and exciting" end. I want to move it slightly toward the faster and exciting side but without any brightness, glare, leanness or analytical sound.

Maybe my tube pre with say the Kinki M7 would achieve this ... and get the amp inside the cabinet ... the M7's input sensitivity of 1.45v (as opposed to my Rogue's 1.0v) would help with the gain issue (the Rogue has 29dB gain, I'm unsure of the M7). This setup still wouldn't enable me to use balanced out from the Spring DAC but maybe I could live with this given the potential benefit from the M7 *IF* it doesn't have the truncated harmonics (for want of a better description) that I heard in the EX-M1 integrated.

@arafiq 
 

I've been experimenting with some different gear lately in my second system. I picked up a Kinki EX-M1+ last week, and I must say my experience is almost the same as yours. It is a good competent amp and does all the 'modern' tricks of neutrality, detail, dynamics, etc. quite well. But just like you, I can't help but feel that something is amiss. I'm impressed but not moved.

I have been helping a family friend build his system based around tube amps. We bought a used VTL I-85 and it is an excellent amp. I'm so impressed that I'm thinking of buying one for myself now. It's not 'modern' sounding per se but it draws you into the music in a way that Kinki can never even dream of.

Funnily enough, the guy that bought the EX-M1 from me preferred it to his VTL ST-150 & modded Audionote M3 combo and sold them.

Different strokes ...

@jackd
Just wondering how much better your BHK/EX-M7 and Chardonnay/EX-M7 combos sounded than your EX-M1 and in what ways?

A while back I tried to downsize my tube pre/tube amp combo to the EX-M1 (original) but although the EX-M1 was very impressive with low noise floor, dynamics, detail, speed, smoothness, PRaT etc, I just wanted a touch more palpability, organic-ness and ended up selling the EX-M1. Also the EX-M1 had way too much gain, even on low gain setting.

I’m now thinking the EX-M7 with my tube pre-amp might get me to where I want to be. Or, if I need to lose more gain, the Athena and EX-M7.

Also, I can’t find how much gain the EX-M7 has, do you know?

@jackd 

As to the issue of the M7 and tube preamps. I didn't really think the match with the BHK was bad just didn't have the warmth and magic that the pairing with the two 6SN7 preamps have. Though the BHK has some degree of the tube feel and more so with the 12 volt tubes it's not at all like what you get from a 6SN7 preamp. I do think the M7 is a great amp on it's own but it will not and does not sound like a tube amp. It is neutral and honest. The closest thing to it that I have owned was the JOB 225. What you put in was what you got out. My BHK 250 and AVA SET 400 are far "warmer". So how the pairing of your preamp and the M7 would go would depend mostly on where on the warmth scale your preamp is.

Thanks Jack.

The Herron VTSP-3 (6 x 6922's) is pretty neutral and low noise for a valve pre. Probably less tubey sounding than 6SN7 based preamps. It is not at all syrupy, sweet, lush, soft etc but has excellent transparency, detail, body, dynamics and organicness. 
The Rogue Stereo 100 (4 x KT120's) is also pretty neutral for a tube amp with big dynamic but controlled bass, wonderful 3D imaging and dimensionality, the walls just disappear, so human and organic sounding. Cranked up Money For Nothing yesterday and the growling electric guitar and big opening drums were just awesome. Such natural tone and body. 

I (mostly) loved the original EX-M1 except for way too much gain, a slight unnatural stiffness or overdamped characteristic that I couldn't listen around, and a slight lack of body and organicness/humanity. But I did love the EX-M1's detail, dynamics, immediacy, resolution and liveliness, all presented in a smooth, refined manner. If it had a touch more organicness, humanity, body (and not the strange stiffness) then I would have sold the tube gear and reduced the number of boxes and cables in my system.

That's why I'm contemplating whether the blend of my tube preamp and the EX-M7 would get me my ideal tonal balance (what I have now but moved  just a touch more toward the fast/exciting end from the full-bodied/relaxed end of the spectrum). 

The other option would be to blend a sligthly sunnier preamp with the Rogue tube amp but then I can't explain to my wife that the new equipment is to get the power amp off the top of the cabinet and into a shelf so that she can put whatever photos, knick knacks and ornaments she likes on top of the cabinet :-)

@jackd 

The Verity's are driven by either the BHK 250 or the Kinki EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay.

I noticed that, due to their amps being direct DC coupled, Kinki advise against using their power amps with tube preamps as DC offset could cause tics or pops through the speakers or even burn out voice coils.

Did you have any issues feeding the EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay? I'm not sure if it matters but are you using SE or balanced cables betwen them?

I can't find any reviews or listening impressions where the EX-M7 (or B-7 monoblocks) have been fed by a tube pre-amp. I was hoping to feed my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp into an EX-M7 rather than go all solid state ... but now I'm a little apprehensive.

@jackd 

I've used the EX-M7 with both the Supratek Chardonnay via XLR and the Don Sachs Model 2 via RCA and had no problems with either. The problems that Srajen had when he tried both his Nagra and later his Vinnie Rossi preamps had to due with the type of tube regulated power supply they use. You should have no issues with your preamp. The EX-M7 is a single ended amp and the XLR inputs are strictly convenience. I use them so I don't have to swap cables out if I substitute in the BHK 250 which is fully balanced.

 
Thanks Jack, you were spot on. I received my new EX-M7 a couple of weeks ago and it has had no issues being paired with my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp. 

Fresh out of the box the M7 sounded promising but a little flat and stiff. From around 15 to 35 hours it started to sound better but there was some glare/hardness. Now at 48 hours the glare is gone and it is starting to sound seriously good. Dynamics and leading edges are so quick and snappy yet totally realistic. Strings, horns, pianos, vocals are all so utterly natural sounding, electric guitars are amazing. There is a wonderful purity and lifelikeness to everything. A natural warmth, weight, organicness, immediacy and vitality, even juiciness at times. Surprisingly (to me), I'm not missing my tube amp at all. I haven't reconnected my sub yet but the depth, weight, texture and growliness of bass is making it easy for me to wait until the EX-M7 is fully burned in before doing so.

The combination is significantly better than the EX-M1 I had previously. The EX-M1 was impressive in ticking off the requirements on the audiophile list but couldn't quite get me to believe that I was listening to real music and to just relax and drink it in. This combo does that easily and consistently.

My floorstanders are rated 93dB/8R (the same as your Otellos) and I still have a little too much gain overall. The DAC is 2.5v from SE output, the Herron VTSP-3 tube preamp is 8dB gain on the low gain setting, the EX-M7 is 26dB gain (tube amp was 29dB). Room is approx 440sq.ft and open to other rooms but even with Harrison Labs -12dB inline attenuators on the EX-M7 SE inputs, my loudest listening level is typically between 35 and 45 (out of 100).

I would love to hear the Athena (unity gain) with the EX-M7 in this system as it would drop the overall gain and its fully balanced design would enable me to use my Spring DAC's balanced outputs (which Spring owners claim sound better). As the VTSP-3 is quite neutral and non-tubey sounding anyway, I probably wouldn't lose any "tube sound" but the lower noise floor may improve details, dynamics and immediacy even further.

Has anyone here tried an Athena with the Kinki EX-M7, or compared Athena to Kinki EX-P27? 

Jack, do you have any excess gain issues with the EX-M7 and your Otellos?