Kii Three vs. actives with analog crossover


Has anyone had a chance to compare Kii Three speakers to PSI Audio or any other active speakers that use analog active crossover and not DSP, maybe some active 3-way ATCs, etc.?

I am interested in educated opinions on transparency, I know it cannot be generalized in such a way as the whole package defines the sound, but maybe there was someone who had opportunity to compare actives using DSP and analog crossovers.

There are some opinions that DSP cannot deliver as transparent sound due to not powerful enough processing to keep signal integrity and generally subpar DA conversions used to keep the cost down, while others believe analog processing cannot match DSP processing and will degrade quality of sound more.

In addition, PSI Audio has completely different approach, they focus on delivering maximum without using DSP, produce most of their drivers, amps, and have arguably the most sophisticated analog crossover, while on the other hand Kii Audio uses inexpensive drivers, Ncore amps, and focuses on DSP processing.

I am interested in opinions on these actives, not about passive vs. active arguments, I am passed that.



sashav
sashav OP
Yeah I’ve heard the earlier big ATC 3 way actives for an afternoon, much better maybe not sterile, but still cold, probably had analog active xovers inside and no digital processing going on. (i didn’t get to find out)
But to me they were still fatiguing after a while, good if you played nothing but rock! Maybe they have cheap active xovers or Class-D amps inside that didn’t agree with me on middle of the road or classical or jazz. in the upper mids and highs.

Cheers George
@georgehifi
Beside Kii, did you hear any other active speakers, maybe some PSI Audio or ATCs?
If so, did you notice the same sterile sound devoid of harmonics?

@b_limo
Re: room modes, I will deal with them in other ways, it is not not the driving factor, I will not make selection of speakers based on their ability (or not) to deal with room modes through DSP.
I am interested in educated opinions about digital vs analog cross-over speakers and specific examples of both, PSI Audio vs. Kee/D&D.

“To clarify my question, I do not care about EQ, room modes, etc.”

to further clarify, are these the room modes you are not concerned about... “Room modes are caused by sound reflecting off of various room surfaces. There are three types of modes in a room: axial, tangential, and oblique” 

If these are the “room modes” you are talking about, I think most of agree that they are in fact something you should be concerned about, if good sound is also a concern.  There are of course, different ways to address them.  
sashav OP
Kii Three vs. actives with analog crossover
Listened to the Kii’s for quite a while seemed to be very detailed, very etched, very impressive, very sterile.
I could not warm to them no matter what the Kii rep tried to make it sound human.
To me there seems to be so much processing going on, it feel/sounds as if it robs all the harmonics from the music, and what your left with is the fundamental with no harmonic decay structure.
And say good by to your cherished dac and amp/s, as they are not needed anymore, you have to use what they give inside, and who knows what they are, as well as being punished by a multitude Class-D amps they use.

Cheers George
I would not get caught up in the after market drivers/amplification vs proprietary thing. The only thing that matters is how it all works together to provide the musical experience that you are looking for. Plenty of possible problems could be had with finding parts if the sole source company goes out of business. Many well known and highly regarded companies use off the shelf because they are that good. Some tweak them a little for their specific design goals. Final implementation and synergy is everything.

Trust your ears and pick the supplier that has the best record for customer service and longevity. I cannot comment on the other differences as they are not in my field of study.

To clarify my question, I do not care about EQ, room modes, etc. I am interested to hear about experience with and opinions about 3-way speakers employing digital (DSP) active cross-over (examples being Kii Three and D&D8c) vs. 3-way speakers employing analog active cross-over (examples being PSI Audio A23-M, ATCSCM50ASL).
If you look at those examples, PSI Audio A23-M is using propitiatory tweeter and midrange drives developed in house, with propitiatory amplification using unique technology such as Adaptive Output Impedance error correction feedback system which according to them allows for superb control of excursion. They also do phase compensation what is evident in impulse response and transients reproduction. All of this done in analog domain, what according to them is the proper way, not employing DSP. This certainly sounds like proper approach.

On the other hand, Kii Three does active cross-over in digital domain employing DSP. They also do phase compensation as well as cardioid dispersion pattern in low-mids and bass which is certainly beneficial, and their DSP processing seems to be very well done, what is all great, but on the other hand they use off-the-shelf drivers and amplification.

So I am interested to hear how these compare based on actual experience and/or in lack of the actual experience opinions based on some sound engineering knowledge (not marketing info, and not some biased pointless arguments not founded in anything).

So I meant to say this, above:
One of the main reasons I would not go with a fully active speaker system is I love the sound of my electronics, and speakers. I love how my DAC and amp sound. I’ve had ICEpower Class D amps and it was very good, but not this good. Barring a lottery win I'm on my last amp.

nCore/Bruno make fine gear, they really do, but if you go that route you buy the package, and god knows with so much stuff I should get rid of here maybe I should too. :)

I think if they accomplish the room acoustic integration, along with good sounding EQ and tuning, it's surely going to be a great speaker system.


Best,
E
I have had the pleasure of meeting and listening with the designers of the Kii III on several occasions. Each listening session has been a revelation. I have been amazed and left scratching my head each time while checking my bank balance. Go and demo with your own music and source if possible. If you have any doubts about how they will perform in your system ask for an in home trial before committing. Move them around in the room to see how well they image regardless of room acoustics thank to the DSP processing.



@b_limo
You can argue that there are pro’s but also cons. Don’t get me wrong, DSP processing of audio is fabulously flexible, and I rely on it for my living room in both Roon and to EQ my sub.

The main argument against a DSP crossover really is the quality of the ADC/DAC combination. You buy a nice Berkeley, Mytek or whatever brand DAC, and you feed.... dsp based speakers? To me that makes no sense as the DSP must:

1 - Convert the analog to digital using an ADC
2 - Process it
3 - Convert the digital into analog

Now, if you can do this all in the digital domain before the signal hits the system, like with say a digital preamp, or Roon, then no problem.

An active/analog XO still has potential drawbacks, including the quality of the components and the additional analog stages that must be put in line, which will introduce flavors, distortion and noise of their own.


In either case, you’ll need more amps.


With a passive, speaker level crossover you ALSO introduce a number of issues, like reduced efficiency (due to voltage square vs. power) and the need to spend WAY too much to get great components, but you only buy a stereo amp for 2 speakers. :)


This is why to me, at the end of the day the whole package/end result is what matters most. I have to say though that the idea of having say, a digital pre amp that feeds the speakers a digital signal, and no additional amps is pretty damn sweet sounding. :) Meridian sure was ahead of their time here.
@erik_squires , correct me if I’m wrong but there advantages to the crossover being handled in the digital domain correct?
I would also look at Dutch and Dutch 8c and the new Buchardts A700 look pretty cool too!


https://www.buchardtaudio.com/products/a700-white


https://dutchdutch.com/8c/

It sounds like you are trapped in marketing spiel, none of which will get you to happy.

Remember that no matter what the technology chosen, it is the designer’s ear and how the speaker integrates into the room and your other components that matter. You can’t be an arm-chair speaker designer and attempt to guess which is going to sound better by reading the lit. There are pros and cons to each of the points you make in the OP.

I would read the Stereophile review of the Kii, not to believe the reviewer, you should not, but read the points he makes, and see if you hear the same things when evaluating each speaker, and whether those points matter to you:


https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-page-2

I will say that in general, being able to EQ the bass response of a speaker can really enhance the experience. Whether this happens in your streamer (like Roon) or the speakers, in the digital or analog domain is another story.

Best,


E