My last statement? This looks like another confusion about "lamp cord" and lamp cord. By "Lamp cord" [in quotes] I mean zip cord, I probably should have called it that in the first place. I've never paid atention to the innards of lamp cord [no quotes] proper, so I said I wasn't sure if there was a physical difference between it and zip cord.
And why are "plastic" and "speaker cable" in quotes? Now this is getting really confusing. That's real PVC, and they are used to connect speakers to amps. |
Sean wrote about lamp cord...
Lamp cord is not bad per se, as it is 12 ga copper stranded wire, which is adequate for most speakers as a conductor. The 20ga mentioned in Grungle's post is too small for most speaker applications.
The problem with lamp cord, as I mentioned before is two fold: the insulation and the geometry. While some published tests have shown that lamp cord *measures* pretty good for use as speaker cable, I disagree. I feel that the geometry and the insulation DOES dictate sonic signature(s) that are audible on systems of sufficient quality. You may or may not be able to detect a significant difference depending upon your particular listening situation. It is entirely possible to make a very expensive and "colored" speaker cable - so expense or looks do not mean that it is better than mere lamp cord.
_-_-bear |
I think you have it right. Nobody really wants to pay more money for no improvement, but it does happen with cables. I have access to almost everything that John Dunlavy has for measurement. So what? I still hear the difference, even if I don't have the equipment to measure it properly, at least with respect to my ears. |
I have to agree with Dunlavy. Beyond a reasonable limit, spending HUGE bucks on fat, fancy, and colorful cables is a waste of money.
If you want a real laugh, check out the thread here on Audiogon titled "Nice Warm AC cord for a PLC". |
Abe, you can laugh all you want. As an electronics tech by trade, i used to do more than laugh at such things. I was UTTERLY APPALLED by such things. That is, until i tried playing with various power cords. The differences WERE noticeable. In fact, i recently re-affirmed this by accident.
I purchased a piece of equipment that created a hum in one of my systems. Changing the power cord altered the pitch AND amplitude AND frequency spectrum of the hum. This was verified both by ear and by an SPL meter. The change in hum was not due to electro-magnetic interference created by the position of the cord either, as the cords were well away from everything else in the system.
Just because we can't explain something or seems to defy logic doesn't mean that it is impossible. Keep an open mind and see for yourself. I did and i'm still learning every day. Sean
> |
Sean, while I respect what you are telling us and I cannot judge what you claim to be hearing, I still stand by my original point about cables in general. With regard to AC power cords, if your new equipment introduced hum into your system that varied in pitch and amplitude with different cords, I would suspect a more severe problem somewhere in the system that was only altered (and perhaps not even solved) by trying different cords. If a different cord did solve the problem perhaps the original cord was defective or something else in the system was not quite right. I have cheap cheap power cords on some of my gear with no weird hum or variations in amplitude or pitch when I change the cord.
My main point should be that, in my opinion, it is wrong to spend huge bucks on interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords that are essentailly being used as tone controls to make up for deficiencies elsewhere in the system. With regard to AC power cords I cannot understand the logic of spending hundreds of dollars on colorful fat cables to plug into a wall outlet that has cheap wiring behind it throughout the house. I would ask, would it possibly be more wise to improve the wiring behind the outlet before dumping mega-bucks on the cool looking power cord? I would agree that an inadequate power cord should be replaced but again, in my opinion, spending more than $50 or so is a waste of money (unless you get pleasure from looking at it like a piece of jewelry). |
Abe, I don't kmow. I took a long time to come around and be a convert/believer, and actually believe that the price of some wires out there are a good value too. Funny thing, the better my equipment got, the more I heard differences between cables, int's & cords. I am witnessing one of the best improvements in my setup recently- an improvement as big as a componant upgrade, really, and it was worth the $600, worth every dollar. I went from DH Labs T-14, to Coincident CST1. FOr the amount of improvement I got, I feel it's a real value. |
Jay, I would agree that interconnects can present a noticeable difference in the sound of your system especially since the measurable and documented differences in the characteristics of these cables can have an affect on the output and input stages of components that might be sensitive to these effects - inductive reatance and capacitive reactance, both of which will alter the tone of an audio signal. On the other hand, I believe that these effects are less pronounced at the low impedance output of a power amplifier coupled to a speaker. A higher quality cable of lower resistance will provide a slight improvement in sound but my real gripe is with those very expensive cables that come packaged in very pretty cases with velvet lining and certificate of authenticity, etc. Snake Oil! Don't even get me started on AC power cords... there's another thread here on Audiogon where you can read in detail my strong opinion on this area of voodoo. :-) |
Abe, the majority of my "fancy" power cords are all homebrew designs with the exception of a few TG Audio's, LAT's and a Kimber. While this might sound like ALL of my power cords are "bought and paid for", keep in mind that i have five complete systems set up in my house. That is a LOT of power cords. As such, the ones that were "bought and paid for" were all "snagged" via Audiogon, Audioweb, Audioshopper, Audioreview, etc.... for pennies on the dollar. As such, i have learned quite a bit via first hand experimentation with the resultant experience that comes with it WITHOUT going broke or spending much at all.
As to my hum problem, there is some type of strange reactance between two components that i can't seem to get rid of. Believe me, i've taken all of the normal "prescribed" routes with no luck at all. The fact that changing power cords even remotely affects the sonic output at the speakers DOES verify that they have more influence on what we hear than what most EE's would ever admit to.
As to you labeling them "tone controls", i think of them more as "filters". While they are both doing the same thing in terms of affecting amplitude, bandwidth, linearity, etc... the end result IS measurable in terms of a lower noise floor, improved s/n ratio, differences in frequency response, etc....
Like i said, break out the test equipment and learn something from all of this. It takes NOTHING to sit on ones' laurels and repeat what you've been told and "believe" to be correct. On the other hand, doing and learning can only benefit you in the future. Who knows, it might end up opening new avenues of thought for you OR simply reaffirm the beliefs that you already have. Are you afraid to put your beliefs to the test or challenge your "faith" ???
As i mentioned before, i WAS in the same shoes that you're in now. Trying to disprove the "idiots" using the same arguements that you've posted, i found out that the "idiots" actually new more than i did. Romex or not, power cords DO change the performance characteristics of a system. Sean
> |
Sean, if you've purchased "high-end" AC cords for pennies on the dollar I should commend you for being reasonable where you spend your money on this crazy hobby. If we had limitless funds, we would all spend several thousand dollars on each component and every cable to get the false sense that we've spent enough money to have a "better" system than one that costs much less. Expensive interconnects are not always better than cheap ones, expensive speaker wires aren't always better than modest wires. In many cases they are just different or just sound different and not necessarily better.
I agree that a good power cord is essential but as I've stated before, I completely disagree that the AC power cord should even be considered as an area of experimentation for altering the overall "tone" of a system (as written about in the other thread). You mention that you prefer to think of the power cord as a "filter" instead of a tone control. Well, what is a filter? A filter passes certain frequencies and attenuates others - you're still essentially calling it a tone control! But I argue that the 60-cycle "tone" coming from your AC mains should hopefully be nearly eliminated through the filtering in the power supply section of your equipment. Why would one try to alter the supposedly audible characteristics of the AC power source when the goal is to eliminate it completely by turning it into pure DC current within the equipment? A good solid high-current capable power cord with decent low contact resistance to the AC outlet is sufficient in my book. I don't subscribe to the bogus claims from mega-buck power cord makers that their AC cords have some magical "sonic signature". So I reassert my opinion that spending more than $50 or so on an AC power cord is wasteful. |
Abe, how many mega-buck power cables have you tried? |
Abe, you're just flat wrong, the magic number for power cords is $72 and 17 cents, not $50. What are you thinking man? BTW, what power cord do you know of that sells for $50? I can think of only one. Which cords you got? Or are you talking about $50 worth of parts, someone still has to put together? |
Ok that sucks, It didn't post the last sentence, maybe because I was in the middle of writing it when my computer made a unilateral decision to post. Anyway, ABE (cont'd): I am dying to know what power cord you regard as an essential upgrade from the stock power cord, but only costs $50. |
As the instigator of this thread, I'd like to point out that no one has yet responded to Abe's observation:
"With regard to AC power cords I cannot understand the logic of spending hundreds of dollars on colorful fat cables to plug into a wall outlet that has cheap wiring behind it throughout the house."
I'm discovering that the reply from true believers to a logical statement such as the above runs along the lines of, "But I can hear the difference!"
Of course, all debate stops when one side becomes completely subjective. Just as devotees of psychic hotlines swear their fortune-teller is genuine.
Do you ever get the feeling that this is the audio version of the age-old debate between rationalists and religious fanatics?
I'll be interested in seeing a coherent response to Abe's statement. |
"Anyway, ABE (cont'd): I am dying to know what power cord you regard as an essential upgrade from the stock power cord, but only costs $50."
J_thunders, no where in my previous posts did I say anything about essential upgrades from stock power cords so please do not misquote me. In most cases I do not believe that it is "essential" to replace the stock power cord at all.
If you must know what power cords I have used, I use mostly the stock cord. But I have built my own using relatively inexpensive parts and cable commonly available from most hardware stores or electrical supply warehouses.
It doesn't surprise me that there are so many outfits that make mega-buck magical high-end power cords. It takes very little (or ZERO) R&D investment, just pretty wires with big gold connectors, some advertising budget, and an audience willing to believe in the magic.
If I buy a fat garden hose of a certain color at 100 times the price of a standard garden hose, will the water coming from the hose magically make my lawn more green? Or will I need a gold plated nozzle to really notice the improvement? |
Abe, what a great idea. If I thought audiophiles had any money left over for lawn care, I'd go into the $5,000 garden hose business. An easy sell. |
Plasmatronic, so you're the guy who started this intense debate! I wonder how many people here sell cable goods? Someone complained that this thread is hurting cable sales on Audiogon.
I'll have to agree that some high-end systems are deserving of a high-end power cord but mostly for the eye candy effect. At some point, the entire audio system becomes more than just a means of producing fine sound. It should look nice. Personally, I don't like brown zip cord. I prefer a slightly fatter black zip cord. And you? |
That someone was me, and it was a joke. Your reply accusing me of misquoting you is mighty convenient, don't you think. At first you say "I agree that a good power cord is essential..." Does this not lead the average reader of your post to believe you are talking about something other than a stock power cord? Otherwise, you might have well said: "I believe a power cord is essential"--which of course makes about as much sense as, well, no sense at all.
Or, did you truly mean to try and suggest at the outset that the stock power cord is what you were talking about? If so, why didn't you just say that in the first place? Something like "I believe the stock cord is good enough, and it is essential." Or maybe, "stock cords are essential, but they are also good too." Or how about, "I believe a good stock cord is essential."
If you truly meant to say what you suggest, then please excuse me, I do not ever like to be accused of misquoting anybody and I offer my deepest apologies. |
This is kind of like the debate that some reviewers had with EE's when digital first came out. The reviewers claimed that there were very audible differences between digital signals. Of course, the EE's stated "digital is digital", etc... because it all basically measured the same. Or so they thought.
Of course, J. Peter Moncrieff was one of the "golden ears" that said that he could hear "darker background, greater dynamic range, sharper detail, etc".... when comparing one CD player to another. Even though the frequency response was linear and every form of distortion was low, there were OBVIOUS differences in how they sounded. The funny thing is that he went on to document via electrical measurements that what he was saying and hearing WAS true. While one player had deeper nulls and higher peaks, faster rise and fall times, sharper images with less distortion, etc... the other was clearly not as fast or clean. Moncrieff even went so far as to publish photographs of waveforms taken via his o'scope for direct comparison to demonstrate that "not so subtle" and "audible differences" DID exist and ARE verifiable. That is, IF you knew how to do the proper tests AND interpret the data that you collected.
There is an analogy that i use on a daily basis that seems to fit here: Just because you have a hammer and a saw, that doesn't make you a carpenter. The same can be said for EE's, ME's, technicians, etc... Just because you have a piece of paper called a degree or a license, years of experience, etc... does NOT mean that you know or have seen it all. As such, the best people in ANY field are the ones that think they know very little and are always looking for explanations of how & why. NOT the people that say "that's impossible".
Like i said before, just because we can't "measure it" today doesn't mean that the differences didn't exist yesterday. I can think what i want, but that doesn't make it "fact" or mean that others are wrong for not agreeing with me. It just means that it is my opinion and only worth the value of what others put in it. As such, neither Abe nor John Dunlavy nor i are "right". We simply have our opinions. Put your faith in what your ears, eyes and heart tell you. God didn't give us all of these senses and the amount of intelligence that he did for us to throw it away because we don't know exactly how something works. Sean
> |
How can you say it does not make a difference if you have not tried it? You should have a local shop that would be willing to let you try one out for free. You have nothing to loose. Depending of your system it might not matter at all. |
OK, you were joking but....
I don't see the problem with my simple statement, "I agree that a good power cord is essential..." Is there something in that simple statement that you do not understand? I didn't say "a good stock power cord is essential". I didn't say "a good mega-buck power cord is essential".
If you choose to read more into it be my guest but I fail to see your point except to confuse the topic of this thread. Read the rest of the sentence then the entire paragraph so you can understand the context in which I made my statement. |
A simple question to all....
Do you believe an AC power cord should be used as a tone control? |
If it changes the tone then you admit they affect the sound right? So, if it changes the system to a point that it is more pleasent to listen too then why not? |
No, but I believe a good power cord is essential. |
You are limiting the performance or "difference aspect" of a power cord to simply altering the "tone" of the system. That is NOT all that they MIGHT do.
We are talking about differences in the noise floor. This in itself effects apparent dynamic range, the ability to "pick out" small details that might have otherwise been buried in the mix, "more correct" harmonic structure, etc...
While i know that it is hard to set aside years of teaching and "hard line" technical aspects, there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to something like this. You have to remember that music and music reproduction is both personal and subjective. As such, your looking at it from "it all measures the same" ( which it might not ) or "theoretically, there should be no differences" while someone else may be saying "this sounds better" or "this sounds more natural". Both sides can present their "argument" with great passion, but the bottom line is that differences DO exist. Whether you choose to accept this or pay money for those differences is up to you. A person shouldn't harrass someone else should they choose to do so. That would be no different than me picking on someone that spent enough money for a Ferrari when everyone knows that a Yugo can get you from point A to point B in appr the same manner. After all, the only difference between a Ferrari and a Yugo would be the amount of attention given to "details" and what someone was willing to spend to get those "details". Sean
> |
Sean, you didn't answer the question.. Do you belive an AC power cord should be used as a tone control? |
What's the right answer, Abe?
If you want to apply the phrase "tone control" to the sonic affect of a power cord (or interconnect, etc.) then you must accept that ALL power cords are in fact tone controls. If that's the case, which regrettably it may be, then I'll shop around for the tone control that works best in my system. |
I'm still trying to figure out why it is that you are digging around at the local hardware store cobbling together electrical parts to make a replacement power cord if the stock cord is good enough. And doesn't the fact that you are doing that in the first place negate your entire bullshit argument anyway? If the hardware store cables you make don't sound any better (meaning they necessarily don't change the sound) why go to the trouble?
I imagine Sean didn't answer the question because there is no point in doing so. It's some strawman you've designed to prove some point that is in no way relevant. Now, I admit, you have already established for yourself that you are smarter than I am, and that I am unable to understand the superior wisdom and insights of your clever posts, but could you first explain why anybody should feel compelled to answer such a ridiculous question? Because you are very right about one thing if nothing else, I am having great difficulty in understanding the logic behind your statements, especially when all read together.
How about this, I'll humor you and give you the platform you seem to want here: Yes, Abe, why yes, I do think that power cables should be used as a tone control. Isn't that what everybody buys a power cord for?
Let's hear what you got to say there genius, it's all yours. |
I didn't think such a simple question would anger and frustrate so many people.
To the person who asked why I built a power cord using parts from the hardware store, it had nothing to do with improving the sound of my system. It had everything to do with the fact that this particular stock power cord wasn't up to par in terms of wire gauge to handle the AC current draw. Why else would I go through the trouble of building a better AC power cord?
Why is there no point in answering this simple question? I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer. In YOUR OPINION do you believe an AC power cord should be used as a tone control? I am truly interested in seeing the responses. |
I thought that i DID answer that question pretty plainly.
Since i think that a music reproduction system includes EVERYTHING that is involved in what you hear ( this includes power cords, components, interconnects, speaker cables, racks, speakers, the room, etc...), the answer would be a resounding YES. This is especially true in the limited context that you are asking the question.
When all is said and done, your question can be summed up as "is one part of the system more important than another" ??? The answer, of course, is a resounding NO. The "system" is only as strong as the weakest link. This is true whether it be a power cord, source, interconnect, amplifier, speaker cable, speaker or the acoustics of the room. Given that most of us are looking to achieve the best performing SYSTEM possible, no part of it is beyond reproach or fine tuning. Sean
> |
What agitates people is not the questions. What's agitating is a questioner who poses a query, then insists that they already know the answer, yet continues to bait others into discussing the subject. In my book that's has all the earmarkings of a troll. |
Is this not a discussion forum and a hot topic worth debating? If it pleases people, I will again plainly state my view that I do not believe an AC power cord should be used as a tone control and asked if they do.
If this offends people so much that they have to make personal attacks against me, perhaps some of them are struggling with this themselves and can't arrive at a simple YES or NO answer. |
I for one am not angry at all. It's just that in my *opinion* you are full of shit. I do not say that to be rude, or to start a fight, it's just that I don't know how to say what I *believe* any better than that. I would say the same thing to your face, with a smile on my face, if we were having this conversation some place other than here.
I will go so far to venture a guess though, that you yourself don't actually believe yourself, and instead just want to argue and hear yourself talk. And with that, I am through with you on this. |
Well I'm through with this too after a few paragraphs..........
Some things to think about:
Fact: Interconnects are designed to carry low-level audio signals between various audio components by coupling their electronic circuitry together. It makes perfect sense then that interconnects will have an audible effect on the sound of a system. It also makes sense that one could experiment with interconnects to alter the "tone" or "sonic signature" of the system.
Fact: Speaker cables are designed to carry audio signals and should also have an effect on the over all sound of a system (but to a lesser extent than the interconnects which carry a low-level signal that by its very nature is more sensitive to variations in cable vs the high-level signal carried by the speaker cables).
Fact: The AC power cord is designed to carry AC power with sufficient current to the equipment. It is not designed or intented to carry audio signals at all. Additionally, the AC current being fed to the equipment will ultimately be turned into "clean" direct current within the power supply. The intent is to have NO AC signal, audio or otherwise, in the DC power being supplied to power the circuitry.
Fact: The AC wiring in your house behind the power outlet is common and cheap. Unless you rewire your house first, it makes no sense to me to use an outrageously exotic power cord to the equipment.
Back to my original question, "do you believe an AC power cord should be used as a tone control"? I do not. |
Abe, It is common practice for a system owner to change interconnects in an attempt to 'produce' the sound he desires. I think you can agree that they can alter the sound. Speaker cables are the same way.
Now to make a point about the lack of quality power cable behind the outlet. I have opened at least a hundred models of audio electronics. I have found very poor quality wire inside the units. I have tried many different cables with these units and have heard differences. I have changed three inches of wire inside a unit and have heard a change. Do you really believe that all high quality electronics and speakers are wired with high quality wire? If hundreds or even thousands say they can hear the difference in speaker cables does that mean they ALL are listening to speakers that are wired with high quality wire inside? I think not.
Our ears have the ability to distinguish differences that the audio community has now figured out how to measure. I was trained in the precision measurement field of electronics. I understand the current forms of measurement pretty well and we are not even close to making measurements that can tell us what a piece of equipment sounds like. As an example of just how foolish a measurement means to audio, consider this. A normal low frequency speaker will easily produce over 1/2% distortion. Then how is it we can tell a difference in the bass performance of loudspeaker cables. The cables do not produce more than 1/100 of the distortion of the speaker.
Now on to the topic of AC power. If we use a similar analogy to the power cable it stands to reason that even a few inches of wire could make a difference. I agree that it could be even more important if the wire behind the outlet is high quality. (I believe it enough to have rewired my house with the stereo in mind) It is false to assume that the AC to DC converter (the power supply) is not effected by what comes in the power line. Our equipment is connected to the power grid. That power grid stretches all over the country and every minute of every day lightning is hitting the grid. Heavy machinery is dumping transients on the grid every second. It is imperative that this noise does not get onto the DC buss inside our equipment. It is next to imposable to stop a transient from passing thru the diodes and dumping a charge onto the filter caps. I believe that power line filters are our first line of defense to this grunge. Who is to say that a power cord does not have some property that helps in filtering this trash and keeps it out of our systems?
And to answer your question: YES I believe a AC power cord, just like a speaker, cable can be selected to 'adjust' the sound to one's liking. Most people feel that a tone control can be used to 'adjust' the sound and so therefore a cable is a form of tone control.
Chris |
Chris, I agree with much of what you said and you put a lot of calm methodical reason behind your comments.
You talk about mating high quality speaker cable with speakers that do not necessarily have the highest quality wiring inside. While people may hear an improvement in the sound (I have), at least here, we are making the adjustment in the *audio* path where you get more "bang for the buck", if you will. Possibly more so with interconnects.
We both know that the AC power cord is not in the *audio* signal path at all so I still have an issue with making adjustments here. On top of that, most of us have several hundred feet of copper wiring at a few cents per foot behind our power outlets yet some people are willing to spend a hundred dollars or more per foot for say, a 6 or 8 foot run of AC power cord (that plugs into several hundred feet of cheap copper Romex). You upgraded your house wiring but I'm sure that most of us have not.
I can understand using a power conditioner or filters on the AC line and many components include a little filtering where the power cord enters the chassis. I think we both agree that this is filtering to reduce "grunge" on the AC line and not for altering the tone of the system. And beyond that, there's the stiff power supply regulators and filter caps.
Maybe its just me but I still think the AC power cord is the least effective place to make tonal adjustments to the sound of an hifi audio sytem. I believe that an AC power cord of sufficient wire gauge to handle the current draw is more than adequate and any adjustments in the sound of the system should be done either in the transducers, the electronics, or the audio signal path between components.
I guess I'm the only one but this is my opinion. I'll leave it at that and let it go. Cheers! |
I vote let's try my question for a while, it's more fun to think about and makes about as much sense. Here it is: Who-let-the-dogs-out? |
Abe, I really do agree with you 100%. It does seem silly to spend dollars a foot on power cables when the Romex is roughly 10 cents a foot. I do not plan on spending my stereo allocation for the next six months on a power cable. Because of my electronics and electrical background, I will make my own. I started out by putting a heavier gage cord on my power amp. It helped, but I did not go farther with power cords because, like you, I felt that size was the issue.
I then got introduced to this and other forums, and all the talk about hospital grade outlets. I had a friend tell me about a hospital grade power cord. He sent me one and I compared it to a shielded IEC cord I had found. Both cords were a lot better than a standard computer cord. They both were even better than the heavy gage cord. The shielded cord had a ferrite 'bead' and may have been responsible for the lower noise floor and better focus of the images. I do not have the answers. I wish I knew what it is that makes a power cord change the sound.
I think we all can agree that a filter of any sort on the power line can have a positive effect on removing high frequency transients from the AC power. I have three filters in series on my power amp! I feel that it is possible that some of the high end cords might, because of their geometry, have special filtering capability. This could be at ultra high frequencies where the mutual capacitance of a big heavy inductor in an after market noise filter just passes it through, but the cord stops it.
My experience in industrial electronics has educated me to the hazards of a poor electrical connection. I have seen the results of a loose connection on a motor. The motor overheated from the reduced voltage and melted the insulation on the windings. Every connection in our systems can be a source for problems. Heavy current flow into the power amp could easily be restricted by a less than perfect connection on an outlet or cord. I had to put a slow turn on circuit in my amp to prevent blowing the 20 amp breaker in the distribution panel! I know that a magnetic circuit breaker can pass many times its rated current for a short transient before it will trip. My amp was likely trying to draw over 60 amps at powerup. Some will not believe that 12 gage wire can supply that much transient current. I know it to be true! I wired a 12 gage 100+ foot circuit going to a pump wrong and when I applied power to the pump it popped a 100 amp fuse instantly. Those little 12 gage wires handled in excess of 100 amps and did not melt or even burn the insulation.
The point that I am trying to make is that I feel we do not understand all the interactions that affect the sound of a system. My ranting(s) are for the purpose of shedding a little light on areas that may affect what we hear. I am sure that many 'discoveries' are waiting to be exposed. I know that discussions like this stimulates me to look deeper for a possible answer. I look forward to more discussion on this topic. Ideas or questions placed on this forum can be the spark that sheds light on a new understanding. I am certainly ready to uncover some of the *snake oil* in the high priced cables so that the less finically fortunate can afford good sounding cables.
Chris |
Abe, The stock cord could not handle the current draw? Was this component U.L. approved? If it was you may want to report this back to U.L. |
The "stock" cord was probably swapped on me when I bought this amplifier used without first seeing it. It looked more appropriate for a preamp. In any case, I built one for about $20 in parts. |
Abe, you never answered my question. |
If one were to ask Roger Penske if he uses COATHANGER to connect his HONDAs to his REYNARDS he would laugh and shoo you out the door! Yes, Helio and and Gil must have accuracy, immediacy, precision, reliability, FEEL, and THRUST with their cables...in both directions. I'll bet those drivers use the best stuff that Roger can find them! |
Frap, Floyd Toole has done more to determine what audio quality means than all of us here put together plus the fine fellows at all of the hi-fi magazines.
Sean, the "blind test in less than familiar surroundings" is a red herring. What do you think of blind tests in familiar surroundings, with the listener's own gear (most of it, except for whatever different is being tested)? Are those invalid, too? The fact remains that ABX testing still is the most accurate and sensitive means of detecting audible differences between audio devices.
Jaykaypur: What would you think of a guy who puts in a new $1,000 power cord and actually gains no improvement whatsoever, but merely thinks he gained 1 dB somewhere? Would he be better off as he is, or would he be better off more knowledgeable and $1,000 richer?
Bmpnyc: The quality of the copper will have an effect on the resistance of the wire. However, the difference in resistivity between "pure" copper and standard commodity-grade Cu is infinitesimally small. Lamp cord, if the overall resistance is small enough, can be as acoustically transparent as any "single crystal" or other hyped-up wire. Some people will give you all sorts of baseless technobabble about the quality of the insulation or the wire geometry. Yeah, right. The characteristics of wire can be boiled down to three electrical parameters: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. In speaker wire, because it's part of a low-impedance circuit, the resistance is the most important factor, so short and fat rules the day. The capacitance of even zip cord is so low that it doesn't begin to affect signals until you get up into hundreds of kiloHertz.
Bear, someone might hear a difference if they separated the lamp cord as you suggest, but would they hear a difference if they didn't know if the lamp cord was separated or not?
Abe, I'll answer your question. No, using power cords as tone controls is silly. For that matter, I think using interconnects as a tone control is silly, too. |
Besides this being "the topic / thread from hell", here are some more comments.
7, if electrical measurements "dictate" what a cable sounds like, why don't people just buy zip cord and "duplicate" their "favorite" cables measurements via electrical components ? It would be WAY cheaper, wouldn't it ? After all, you could simply measure the characteristics of a specific cable that you liked in your system and go from there. Once you factored in the amount of inductance in the "el cheapo" zip cord ( which you forgot to mention ), you could then simply add series resistance, capacitors, inductors, etc.... as needed. Why don't people do this ? Because it doesn't work !!!
The bottom line is that "lumped sums" do NOT equal the sonic characteristics even if they DO match electrical characteristics of the other cable. If you think that the differences between having electrical values "spread" amongst the cables or "lumped" is not measurable, detectable or audible, you need to do some checking. Borrow or find access to a TDR ( Time Domain Reflectometer ) and see for yourself. Slight kinks in cables are QUITE measurable in terms of impedance bumps, voltage to current ratios, velocity factors, etc...
Just as cables DO alter the sonics of a system, it would be nothing less than SILLY to NOT take them into consideration when building a "system". After all, ALL of the signal IS passing through the speaker cables along with the majority of other cabling in the system.
There would be NO questions asked about any of this stuff if we were talking about building a high performance car. Since most every aspect of an auto's performance ( from BSFC to horsepower / torque curves, to acceleration to braking, etc... ) can all be verified with hard numbers, we would be left with nothing "subjective" to deal with other than how the car "feels" or what our personal preferences were in terms of "ergonomics".
Unfortunately, audio is almost 100% subjective due to the various electrical characteristics involved and the differences in how we hear as individuals. This is true REGARDLESS of how something measures on the bench. If you haven't seen "unexplainable" differences between components that measure similar in identical installations, you've spent WAY too much time in the books, theory and "drawing board" and WAY too little time with hands on experience. Sean
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This is a very interesting thread. And very timely because I just got an e-mail that the Audio Engineering Society in LA is having a meeting tonight and they're going to talk about cables and controlled listening tests. They have a guest from Sound & Vision magazine, Tom Nousaine. That should be really interesting. Hi, I'm new. |
I personally know Tom. I would be interested in his comments on cables and controlled listening. I have done some controlled listening with him. Plus4dbu, please give us a report. |
Welcome Plus4dbu, I look forward to hearing your report. Great post Sean, not so great 7. |
Maybe this explains it all -- or at least part of it:
"Auditory memory is said to last for only about forty seconds (average) and this possibly explains the diverse auditory perceptions."
From:
http://www.innerear.on.ca/editorials/editorial-v9-3.html
A few people have asked me, as the igniter of this unexpectedly voluminous thread, to state my opinion. I've held back, but after almost 150 postings on this topic, and now that it seems to be slowing down...what the heck.
Based on my 30 some years in audio, many of those years spent as a musician, and the past 15 years as a financial writer observing the degradation some people will fall into in pursuit of their god of money, I see the same pattern in huckster get-rich-quick pitches as I see in high-end product advertising, particularly in cables, interconnects and, most shamelessly, in power cords: Snake oil. The only difference is that the financial con men appeal to their audience's desire to get rich quick, while the audio con men appeal to their audience's desire to get audio nirvana quick.
Before you ask, have I spent tens of thousands of dollars and auditioned every interconnect, cable and cord out there? Of course not. Have you? Even if I had attempted such an absurd venture and pronounced my opinions, they would only be MY opinions, and many would disagree. The 40-second rule applies.
I have tried some high end speaker cables and compared them to Radio Shack 12 gauge oxygen-free copper cable at what the salesman thinks is an outrageous $1.00/foot. I find no appreciable difference.
Horrified? Get in line.
If it comforts you, I hear a big difference between 12 gauge and 14 or thinner. Other than that -- snake oil.
I think that some people are convinced that they hear a difference between, for example, one cable or power cord versus another. I can't get in their head to verify this. But my common sense, which I am learning more and more to trust, tells me that most likely they *want* to hear a difference. Maybe it's because they bought it and have convinced themselves they have to defend their extravagant purchase to their wife and thus to themselves. Maybe it's because they read a review and have convinced themselves that if they allow themselves to disagree with the respected reviewer they wouldn't be taken seriously as an audiophile, by their friends or perhaps just in their own minds. Whatever it is:
High end audio is largely about ego. That's why it's a male hobby.
We all want to think we have the biggest and the best. Or that we are on the way to getting it. And the latest and greatest cables and power cords all promise to be the new Viagra. Until you get the next issue of Stereophile which pronounces the newest latest and greatest.
And to those who have asked about my system (golly, I hope mine's bigger than yours)...here's what I am currently listening to:
Thorens TD-160 Mark II table
Audio Technica AT440 cart
Audible Illusion Modulus 3A pre-amp
JoLida tube CD player
Theta Casablanca
Spectron Musician II amp
Martin-Logan speakers
12 gauge Radio Shack O2-free speaker cable at an outrageous $1.00/foot
TMC interconnects on some components, Radio Shack gold terminal interconnects on others (haven't made up my mind on these, except the TMCs are stiff as a board and very difficult to work with)
FYI, the Spectron/Martin Logan combination is truly magical.
Of course, that's only my opinion. But I make no money giving you my opinion; unlike the cable and power cord manufacturers. Snake oil it's not. |
I'm not horrified, nor do I need any comfort, but I do feel sorry for you. I can't help but notice you have chosen a hobby that begins and ends with the ear, yet yours don't appear to function the same way mine do. Pity. It's about like eyesight. I can see better then most too, the only difference is that there isn't anything like an eyechart to test the difference and show you what you are missing. Oh well, even if I spend more money on cables than you do, I trust my ears and will take them over yours any day! Enjoy your music. |
Funny Plasmatronic that you can't make up your mind between TMC interconnects and Radio Shack gold terminal interconnects.
Why not, they all sound alike right? Must be the color. |
