Rok, "Boy, What a Night" is a perfect example of what I'm talking about in regard to thinking that you have all the most important jazz by any given musician. I don't have that, nor do I have "Barry Harris" (he was a good friend of Nica's) that I'm aware of. I bought Lee Morgans greatest hits, which includes "The Sidewinder", but not the rest of the cuts on that album.
My current decision to go back and buy all the LP's was a good one. Fortunately I have Eddie Harris, Les McCann and of course Oscar Brown. Nina Simone's version of "Rags and Old Iron" was the first I heard, they're both very good.
This is working out even better than I thought.
Enjoy the music.
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While listening to 'Big Band Sunday' on the local PBS station I heard this tune 'drop me off uptown'. A male female duo. Heard the man say 'anita' and the woman say 'Roy', so I figured it was the OP's girl friend, Anita O'day, with Roy Eldridge. Goggle confirmed it. This would have been considered fairly 'risque' in 1942. But, there was a war going on. After the clip, is a short piece about her entitled 'The Jazz Life'. Anita had such a sexy voice back in the day. Even while just speaking. I now realize she is on this radio station a lot. Where would we be without the internet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yaW6BluwYCheers |
***** I hate to say it, but Ramonron has made me aware of something; I like "New Age" *****
Not nearly as much, as I hate to hear you say it. :)
Cheers |
Rok, if absolutely nothing was labeled, we would discover that we like a lot of things we're not supposed to like.
Enjoy the music.
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Asian Lounge - Ja Nam / Ancient Future
Both Very good. I liked Ja Nam best. It had more of that Oriental twang. These tunes are a lot closer to Jazz than a lot of the stuff being produced in this country today.
As I have said before, the most beautiful song I have ever heard, was sung by a Korean woman, in Korean. Do not know her name, or the name of the song, or what the song was about. But I am sure, it was about longing and loss. Because that is what it said to me. Proves that music is surely the universal language.
Cheers |
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Although Frogman is no longer with us, I feel compelled to find some new high quality jazz. This came to me with high recommendations and I bought it; "Kalenia" by Oran Etkin. Atman said my reason for not preferring new jazz is a generational thing, I'm sure there is some truth in that. Today, I've nominated this CD for a complete review. Although all the cuts were "listenable", I could have lived without most of them. I'll present to you the one that gets a cigar. Bass clarinet is not an instrument I've heard very often, as a matter of fact, I found it very interesting and unusual; that alone rescued the flat spots on this CD, plus superior sonics didn't hurt. While I'm glad I purchased it because of it's uniqueness, I can't recommend it because not enough cuts get cigars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJsM-hoN7sEnjoy the music. |
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As the title of the tune says, "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing". Enough said.
The youtube that followed was Ella and Ellington performing the same tune.
Youtube trying to make comparisons?
Bass clarinet? You have heard of Eric Dolphy?
Cheers |
O-10 (and Rok) - I have been away from this board for some time again, and have returned this morning to read what has passed here the last couple of weeks with great sadness. I feel that I must respond to some of the comments made here. I pick three examples:
"not only has Frogman been misinterpreting every thing I say, but he's been rewriting my posts, and coming up with something completely different from what I said originally."
"I consider Frogman a highly educated and intelligent person, who has made great contributions to this thread; however, quite recently I seem to be speaking French and he only understands English, or vice versa."
""I consider this ignorance BLISS", and I hope this closes that door permanently".
With all due respect, O-10 - you are the one who not only does not, but willfully refuses to understand. This is not a case of you speaking one language and Frogman speaking another. It is a case of he speaks the language (of music), and you do not. No one is re-writing your posts - your ignorance is proudly proclaimed, and there for all to see who do indeed speak the language of music.
You will no doubt respond by saying that this is your thread, which it is. But you must understand that no one with any knowledge of the language of music whatsoever is going to listen to you seriously anymore, now that it has been established that you are unwilling to learn. You truly do not know the depth of your own ignorance, even while proclaiming and glorying in it.
Some of you also clearly do not understand the tragedy that this is for us professional musicians, to see someone that clearly thinks they love music so much, yet is also so willfully blind and ignorant about it. You clearly have no idea how disrespectful this is, and I do not mean to us musicians, but to the music itself. Many would go so far to say that you do not really love music at all, let alone as much as you think you do - how could you if you have so little respect and understanding for the very basics of it. They might say that while may you take great pleasure in it, you not only do not, but cannot love it.
It is of course your choice to stay on your island of ignorant bliss if you wish, but wonder no longer why no one with any true love and understanding of music will listen to you any longer, when you are unwilling to listen to such a great teacher as Frogman or even attempt to really understand anything about what you are trying to speak of. At least Rok, as infuriating as he can be, has made some effort at understanding and real dialogue. I have seen no real effort on your part, and will reluctantly and very sadly bow out of this thread as well. Reading these last exchanges unfortunately reminded me of what Rex Stout's great detective Nero Wolfe once said - "you can't put sense into a fool's brain - I've tried."
Rok - your question about Beethoven's last piano sonata and jazz. Frogman I would say is basically correct in his response. Clearly, Beethoven had no thought whatsoever of "jazz" in his mind when writing the sonata. But many decades later, young student piano players learning and studying his music took certain aspects of it, and translated them into the jazz idiom. It is quite absurd to say that one can only truly understand a genre if it is invented in one's own country. These things are never so black and white. As Frogman insists, European music had much more influence overall on "jazz" than African drums did. Rhythm is only one aspect, though sometimes the most important one. After all, music is the creating of sound within time. There are no borders to it. It is a universal language, one that anyone can learn and understand, if they have the love for it, and give it the time and respect it deserves.
I have enjoyed this thread, and repeat Frogman's commendations to O-10 for starting it. Most of the best posts ever made in these forums are on it. I have learned a great deal, and have been exposed to some wonderful music that I was not familiar with before. And despite my frustrations expressed above, I honestly do wish O-10 and Rok and everyone else here well. |
To all concerned:
Jazz for Aficionados: The beginning:
The OP wrote in his initial post:
*****I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections******
(( He then reviewed the Art Blakey Album, "Moanin' ))
then he closed with this:
****While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.******
Now, after reading that, I don't see a mandate, or a request, or a demand, or a desire, or an expectation, for The Frogman, or anyone else, to Teach anyone, anything, about Jazz.
Now that the intent of this thread has been stated, I will
address, later this afternoon, the arrogant attitude, and abusive language that are common themes of most posts by you and the Frogman. I have finally had enough of it. Being a Southerner, it takes a lot to get me riled. But you have.
Cheers |
Rok, while you were defending our integrity, I was reading about "Mary Lou Williams"; she was a very impressive lady. I'll get back to you after I've finished. You can find her picture in Nica's book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X4r5ZioIBwEnjoy the music. |
Learsfool:
I have cooled off, so I won't answer your BS post point for point. I never feel good after doing things like that. Let's just say:
It appears as if you are also a Strawman Specialist. Most of your rant is pure non-sense. And very disrespectful to the OP.
O-10 has never been anything less than courteous in his dealings with you. In fact, I always thought he gave you and the Frogman too much credit. Deferred to you too much. He also bent over backwards to keep you two involved in the thread.
You may know music, but you have no manners.
****You will no doubt respond by saying that this is your thread, which it is.*****
When has the OP ever used "it's my thread" in the sense that you just used it? Never! But now, it's 'no doubt' he will.
****But you must understand that no one with any knowledge of the language of music whatsoever is going to listen to you seriously anymore,*****
Is this a joke. Are you speaking of folks on Audiogon? People on this site have no real knowledge of anything, music included!!! Do you read the posts and the topics on this forum?? Ignorance rules!!! Which is one of the reasons for the problems on Aficionados. There was the constant effort to make it an Audiophile thread.
So now you and The Frogman are gone. Do we go into mourning? Or (my choice), Just act as if you were never here. Hell, Some people might just say, Good Riddance? I won't, but some might.
Cheers
BTW, when you first heard the Beedthoven Sonata in question, did you think, Boogie Woogie?? I'm sure you did. |
O-10:
Got my CDs today, includes 'Dinah Jams'. Do you realize who's in the group backing her? Clifford Brown, Clark Terry, Maynard Ferguson, Harold Land, Junior Mance and Max Roach. Plus a few I am not that familiar with.
Fairly decent Trumpet section!! Will report after I listen. Also got two by Shorter.
I have two CDs by Mary Williams. 'Zoning' and 'Zodiac Suite'. From her younger days. I will check to see if she did 'Scorpio' justice.
Cheers |
Rok, Now that you have dealt with a most distasteful situation, that's completely behind us, and we can go on to more productive uses of our time.
Although "all" of the artists on Dinah Jams are major, to me, "Richie Powell", one who many people are unfamiliar with because he was killed in that automobile accident with Clifford Brown, is very important. I like him even better than his famous older brother "Bud Powell"; that's why I cherish every note I can find by him.
Presently I'm still pursuing Mary Lou Williams.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, we're going to have to find some kind of filter for "Mary LOU", because of the recording quality of so much of her music. This is going to require work; for example "Mary Lou's Mass" is a work of art, but the sonics wont cut it for me; but since it is a work of art, it's also recorded as a "Dance Thing", that would work if I could find a DVD where that's choreographed.
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Learsfool, there is an unbridgeable chasm between those who
love something for how it makes them feel and somebody who loves the thing itself.
If rationality could bridge the chasm they would never have been one in the first place. |
Rok, apparently there are two trains of thought on this thread; we have much more important things to to do. I've discovered a "gold mine" and we are going to mine it for what it's worth. Just as trains running in opposite direction pass on parallel tracks, we shall allow that train to proceed on to it's desired destination, without disturbing it.
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Rok, this is an even greater Gold Mine than the last one we discovered, and I know we're both still enjoying that one. "Mary Lou's" incredible music is coming up short in the sonics department, but her music is so incredible in regard to "Blues and Soul", that it doesn't have to be her playing her music; it's just that powerful. While I mentioned blues and soul, the gal can bop too. This is an example of her religious music that's so powerful, I vibrate when I look and listen to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk1Rkf9LVAkEnjoy the music. |
O-10:
The first clip, Mary Lou's Mass was good. The second clip was flimed with a fixed camera from a long distnace. Not nearly as effective.
However, I must admit that I am not a fan of Modern Dance, esp in the absence of the Librettro. As usual, I am old School. 'Swan Lake' and 'The Nutcracker' are just about the limits of my dance appreciation.
I did notice that Mary Lou made several references to God and religion in Nica's book. Of course a lot of the other players did also. Different era I guess.
I did not get a chance to listen to Mary Lou or anyone else today. My Polks have failed. :( I know, I know, it's impossible to believe. But you can't say Polk is not high-end now. Beautiful product, very expensive, great sound and with a MTBF of about 20 minutes.
I am now waiting on a replacement tweeter, and magnetic grill. back in the lo-fi days, the stuff lasted forever.
I did get a chance to listen to some of' Dinah Jams'. Sounds like a fun disc. I recognized Maynard right away on 'Summertime'. No one else can play that high and that loud.
Dinah is not really a Jazz singer, but she does have a very unique voice. One of her most memorable lines to me, was from a CD with Brook Benton, when she says, as only she can, "one more time Brook". :) Love it.
Will be back in the net tomorrow. Will bring the Lsi15's back out.
Cheers |
Rok, you didn't buy "Dinah Jams" for Dinah Washington, you bought it for the musicians backing her, so do not miss one single solitary note.
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Rok, I have an affinity for Mary Lou's music that goes beyond anything I have ever experienced; it's a kind of nostalgia thing that goes back to a time before I was even born. Have you ever looked at an old black and white photograph that was so old that it was turning brown, and been drawn into it? I'm drawn into the sound of her piano; on "Willow Weep For" for example, this sounds like music I heard at a time before I could even remember. on "It Ain't Necessarily So", I've heard this a thousand times by a thousand people; why should Mary Lou's sound so different; it takes me back, way back; so far back that I wasn't even born. Could there be something to reincarnation? Maybe I heard her before I was born in a "speakeasy" in Kansas City when I was somebody else? Music is so mystifying; I mean how the very same music can have so many different, and unusual effects on different people.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e8AOox_prE[/urk]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ugEnjoy the music. |
O-10:
Both links go to 'Willow'. It was beautiful. Check out some of the comments from musicians. Dare I say it? She was well versed in the N&B's. :)
I tried to listen to my CDs of Williams, but the sound quality was just too awful. They were recorded in 1974 & 1945. The clip you sent had great sound. They did a good job of cleaning it up.
The notes on the clip said she 'tutored' Monk!! Damn! I think if she had been a man, she would have been up there with the best, in the public's consciousness
Send 'necessarily so'. I suspect You didn't hear it in Kansas City. It just sounds so refreshing in this current sea of noise, you think you had to have heard it in a former life.
Thanks for the clips.
Cheers |
****Have you ever looked at an old black and white photograph that was so old that it was turning brown, and been drawn into it? I'm drawn into the sound of her piano;*****
Solo piano can do that. Esp if it's being played in an airly room with a wooden floor. Nawlins? As my family's historian, I have a zillion black and white photos. Sometimes I wish I was back there. :) I have two of my Great Grand parents that have turned brown. 19th Century stuff. But they are a lot clearer than this modern stuff. Just like Mary Lou's piano.
Cheers |
O-10:
*****you didn't buy "Dinah Jams" for Dinah Washington, you bought it for the musicians backing her, so do not miss one single solitary note.*****
You are absolutely correct. Great playing all around, but 'Lover come back to me', that tune, at that tempo, cried out for Ella.
Thanks for turning me on to it. Great Disc.
Cheers |
Rok, here's "It Ain't Necessarily So"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug&list=RDz4THBVc47ugI could listen to her music all night and never get bored; the more I listen the more I want to hear. Our job is to "separate the wheat from the chaff"; meaning she had to make a living, which means whatever was popular at that time, plus there's the matter of recording quality. I'll have to do a lot of searching before I can make recommendations on which CD's to buy. Enjoy the music. |
The Trumpet 'exchange' on 'I got you under my skin'. The winner is?_______ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC7n6SREFewThe more I play this disc, the better she sounds, and the more I like it. You notice the details on repeated playings. Cheers |
Rok, Dinah was one hot sister, and she was only 30 when she made that album. I'm super sensitive to female vocalists when they still have that "girlish" quality in their voice. When you combine this with the very best young jazz musicians, it comes through the music; it don't git no better than that. Your experience mirrors my own.
Presently I'm on a mission that's led to "analog"; that's that dreaded stuff that requires deep pockets, 3K minimum to beat CD. My cartridge recently had an accident, the clumsy thing ran into my hand.
I paid $35 for records that weren't on CD, and shortly after that they came out on CD. Hopefully what's available only on records will be available on CD in a short while. I have yet to find CD's to recommend.
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Outrage:
On a British TV talk show, discussing the war on drugs, The moderator used Billie Holiday, as an example of how drugs can be beneficial to an artist, by making them more creative. He prefaced his statement, by saying he was a great Jazz fan.
They say there is a Planet Annihilating asteroid out there, with the Earth's name on it. Hurry, Please Hurry.
Cheers |
Rok, the only thing dope inspired was "No Shows". Musicians who used dope would have been addicts had they never laid eyes on a musical instrument or sang one single solitary note.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, patience is a virtue, one we will have to exercise in regard to acquiring Mary Lou's music. In the meantime we can discuss the person who created the music. She was a natural born musician who was way ahead of her time, so far ahead that mom couldn't believe it; she dropped Mary Lou who was in her lap watching mom play, and played the same thing note for note after watching mom. (I wrote about another musician who repeated a Juilliard student's lesson) There was never any doubt as to what she was going to be when she grew up.
It's for certain we want all the music I've posted, and will continue to post; hopefully all of the music wont be on different records. In the meantime, clue me in on anything you find interesting about her, or her music.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I went to Circuit City for computer parts, and a salesman stopped me on the way in selling speakers, cheap speakers. "Can't this guy tell I'm an "Audiophile", we don't buy cheap speakers", that's what I was thinking anyway. "See me on the way out", I told him.
I don't know if I found the computer part or not, but sure enough, when I was on my way out, he stopped me again. "These speakers are really cheap", "How cheap", I inquired. When he told me, I said, "I'll take them."
Those were Polk Speakers, and that was 15 years ago; they were small 2 way bookshelf and sounded a lot better than I expected. Just recently I hooked too powerful an amplifier to them and one of the cross overs blew, speakers still good; I ordered a crossover from "Parts Express".
I use them in the workshop; but just imagine some speakers so cheap, I bought them when I had absolutely no intention of buying any speakers at all, and they lasted 15 years without any problems, and sounded good. Times have changed.
Enjoy the music
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O-10:
Did some searching for Mary Lou's albums on Amazon and in the All Music Guide to Jazz. I think it's best, for sound quality reasons, to stay with her later work. Regardless of the playing, I just cannot listen thru static and noise.
I will select from these:
Black Christ of the Andes
First Ladies of Jazz
Nite Life
Live at the Cookery
Solo Recitial:Monterey Jazz Festival
Cheers |
O-10:
I really miss our local Circuit City. They had a pretty good selection of music and gear. Lots of Carver stuff. I purchased, for my Mom, a cheap Technics receiver, about 15 years ago. It's still going strong. She only used it to listen to the Gaithers. :)
My polks are sounding better today. Could my tweeter problem be a function of speaker, or brain, break-in? Today I looked up Lsim705 reviews to read. One reviewer used ELLA & LOUIS for his sound test. I listened to that today. Great Disc.
I will do whatever it takes to keep these speakers. The most beautiful I have ever seen. Build quality unreal.
Cheers |
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Rok, be careful, that's how he addiction begins, next thing you know you will be looking for the perfect power cord, but what a wonderful way to go! |
Acman3:
Just because a person purchases a half dozen or so, Shunyata Sigma power cables, does not mean he is in danger of becoming addicted.
And how did you find out about the purchase??? Have I been HACKED???!!!
Cheers |
Rok, I'm a lot more of an "Audiophile" than I would like to admit; once I get into the music, that's all I want to hear, not noise and distortion. It's quite possible that we have gone as far as we can go with this music; nevertheless, we covered a lot of territory, but I think it's time to move on. What are your thoughts?
After we receive the CD's we can compare notes in regard to sonics. Hopefully they'll clean up Mary Lou's music like they did those 50's and 60's CD's. Next time I'll give the sonics more consideration before I get into the music. BTW those CD's you have are better than my original LP's, which has absolutely nothing to do with that CD vs LP fuss, but the fact that the music can be cleaned up before it's released.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10: The singing on the first clip went on too long. I thought once Mary Lou started playing, she should have continued until the end of the tune. They were screeching at the end. The tune, Dirge Blues, played by Bheki Mseleku, I liked a lot better. I neeed to check out Mseleku's output. Speaking of Dirge, here is the Master. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzbfWTcoE6cCheers |
Rok, I could do without the singing as well, but that CD also contains "It Tain't Necessarily So", that might be one of the better CD's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUdMoKXKAuoI want Mary Lou's music with today's sonics. When Bheki Mseleku play's Mary Lou's music, that's fine, but when he switches back to the South African thing, I could live without it. I think what we might be looking for, are today's artists who are inspired by Mary Lou's music; that would give us the best of both worlds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRg8iMemy4This is one nice cut, a must have. Enjoy the music. |
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Dave Douglas - Soul On Soul: A Celebration Of Mary Lou Williams. While only 4 of the 13 tunes are actual MLW written tunes, the rest are dedicated to her. This record was on many 'best of the year' lists in 2000 when it was released. Outstanding record! |
Thank you Chazro for that timely contribution. Have you reviewed it yet? I'll review it the first chance I get.
Enjoy the music.
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First and foremost, I want everyone to know that I am only expressing one person's thoughts opinions, and emotions, and I make no claim to speak for anyone else. This is my "subjective" opinion in regard to "Dave Douglas, Soul on Soul", which is a celebration of "Mary Lou Williams" music. This opinion in no way is a reflection of how good a jazz musician Mr. Douglas is, but how well this works in regard to Mary Lou Williams music.
Since I had a problem with the words "objective" and "subjective" with two past contributors, I'll spell it out again. People who lay claim to some kind of "objective" reality in regard to jazz, are saying you are not only supposed to hear what they hear, but the music is supposed to have the same affect on you as it did on them. I make no such claim; again, this is only one person's opinion, mine.
I listened to this music and could not hear how it related to Mary Lou Williams. While I have no objections to the fact that it was rated as a top jazz album, I could not hear the relationship to Mary Lou Williams.
Words are spoken and written, music is played and written, Mary Lou's music displayed subtle emotions, that could only have been displayed by her; it wasn't so much what she played, as it was the way she played it. Let me compare two musicians, her and Horace Silver, for example; since he wrote "Nica's Dream" and a number of other tunes, one could play his music, and call it a "celebration of Horace Silver", but in the case of Mary Lou, one would have to display her unique touch; in other words, one would have to duplicate "Mary Lou Williams" because it was "the way she played", as opposed to "what she played", and the only person who could play what she played, the way she played it, was "Mary Lou Williams"; consequently, this music fell flat in that regard.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, "My Mama Pinned a Rose on Me" is a real winner, both sonic and music wise; I've been in Mary Lou ville since it came today.
Enjoy the music.
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Horace Silver's sound was just as unique as Mary Lou's if not more so. |
O-10:
*****My Mama Pinned a Rose on Me*****
I notice you got the one with all the 'blues' tunes. Good for you. "No Blues, No Jazz". :) I put it in my cart also.
I am very impressed with reviews of this woman's music. I had no idea she was this important a figure in Jazz.
I bought the CDs I have because of reviews from Stereo Review. I never followed up on her as a person.
One reviewer said the Williams CD he was reviewing was the greatest, or best, Jazz piano recording ever!! Even allowing for hyperbole, that's quite a statement.
Installed my tweeter, so my Polks are ready for duty. I will post my thoughts on Mary Lou as soon as I receive her CDs.
BTW, I posted her many months ago. Ignored as usual. :(
Cheers |
