Jazz for aficionados

Sorry for the double post above. But, Rok2id, YES! a group like the Last Poets might have done what I heard but as best I can tell what I'm looking for was not by them. Please advise if otherwise Thank again.

Orpheus & Rok2id - hopefully not completely hijacking this thread but possibly taking it on a little off road excursion that will get it back to your intended course in short order....

The recent exchange about "rap" reminded me of something I heard on WXPN (adult alternative public radio out of Phila.) several years ago. It was, I think, a "pre-rap" song the gist of the lyric being that Jesus was a black man...went into some detail on His lineage justifying this take on Him. VERY powerful and literate. I'd love to listen to it again but have not been able to find it. My sense of the period it was from is probably late '60s maybe '70s. I have searched old radical black groups & black poets from the era to no avail. Hoping this might trigger a memory with you. Thanks in advance.

Orpheus & Rok2id - hopefully not completely hijacking this thread but possibly taking it on a little off road excursion that iwill get it back to your intended course in short order....

The recent exchange about "rap" reminded me of something I heard on WXPN (adult alternative public radio out of Phila.) several years ago. It was, I think, a "pre-rap" song the gist of the lyric being that Jesus was a black man...went into some detail on His lineage justifying this take on Him. VERY powerful and literate. I'd love to listen to it again but have not been able to find it. My sense of the period it was from is probably late '60s maybe '70s. I have searched old radical black groups,black poets from the era to no avail. Hoping this might trigger a memory with you. Thanks in advance.

Frogman was the last person to submit music on this "music" forum, he submitted "Chucho Valdes". Now I know why that name confuses me; his father was Bebo Valdes, jazz ran in the blood of the Valdes family.

Before that, I posted "Ernesto Lecuona", who was a prolific composer of songs for music and films. Ruben Gonzalez performs "Siboney" by Lecuona.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3F7SCs3Utw

Here is more of Lecuona's music by Catrena Valente.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_N4wfVdw-8

Enjoy the music.

O-10,

If you disagree with my post, Read my first sentence again. If you are in agreement with my post, then never mind.

The poets were rappers. They just talked about different and important things with intelligence, using street language. What they created was later 'hijacked' by the thugs who turned it into the ho thingy. Just as bebop somehow ended up being 'FREE'.

The thing is defined by the first, not the current. They just corrupted it.

Cheers

"Aficionados", you're conflating "RAP" with social commentary. "The Last Poets" was social commentary, Gil Scott-Heron would turn over in his grave if you called him a "Rapper". Is poetry "RAP"? Not all words spoken in rhyme and rythm are "RAP".

It's the intellectual content of the "Rap" that distinguishes one rap from another. "RAP" is almost exclusively about bitches, ho's and the low life style of pimps and thugs in as vulgar a language as possible.

Get real, we're talking gang life culture that's exploited for what it's worth, that's "RAP"; however, when we blame the people caught up in that culture, we're blaming the victim for the crime.

Once upon a time, there were people called "sociologist" who worked hard to explain, and prevent thug culture from spreading; but it was much cheaper not to hire people who worked to remedy the cause of the problem, and let the people deal with it as best they could.

Although this culture is closely related to poverty, the culture remains even after the artists have become millionaires, as we have witnessed; but to understand how people caught up in that culture are the victims as opposed to the criminals is beyond current thinking in this society. "Rap" goes far beyond music or social commentary.

Now you see how easy it is to "just enjoy the music".

I think we can say that RAP was hijacked. In the beginning it was good, even great. Sort of like an urban version of Dylan.

Then folks figured out you didn't much to do it. No talent or musical training. Anyone with a loud foul mouth could do it. Lot of money to be made with little overhead.

But if you don't understand the 'RAP' phenomenon, just remember the advice of Deep Throat, 'Follow the Money'!

I have a CD by Ice-T and Quincy Jones that is not too bad. Even has 'Birdland' on it. Ice-T raps.

If you want the real deal, try 'The last Poets'. I warn you, not to everyone's taste, but great and painfully accurate commentary on inner city life. From the 70s, but sadly, still revelant. And they point the finger at the correct people. Truly urban Dylan.

Currently listening to Woody Shaw's WOODY III. Will report later.

Cheers

Check this out. Killer arrangement, smoking rhythm section and great solos. Love the way that Valdes relaxes the time feel when he plays the well-known Zawinal melody over the drummer's simple but relentless and driving groove. Great stuff!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2W8gbBzvUU

Orpheus10, completely agree about Lecuona; some of the most beautiful.

An honest and well intended observation about a previous comment you made:

*****Am I the only person who finds it difficult to appreciate "solo" piano; where's the bass, where's the saxophone, where's the something besides a lone piano. No reflection on the music or the artist, but a personal observation of my perception of music; I need a combination of instruments.

While it's been nice to hear Kaper's music played on solo piano by Kaper, this listener requires a band in order for the music to project a wide range of emotions, and get me involved.*****

Glad you enjoy the solo piano by Lecuona.

The subject of RAP makes my head hurt. I am not prepared to say that it is not music, but I do know that if it is music, it is not music that I can relate to nor want to relate to. It doesn't fit my, and most traditional, definitions of music (no melody/harmony), but it certainly occupies a place in current culture that more traditional musics have previously; obviously, particularly in the segement of our population that gave birth to it. I agree with much of Orpheus10's characterization of it in that it is a social statement, but it seems to me that it represents far more than a subculture; it is now pervasive in our culture. As Rok points out, it is everywhere. And how sad it is that the generation and ethnic group that supports it primarily are so clueless about the incredibly rich musical history that they are neglecting instead; much of it discussed in this thread.

Malaguena -- was on one of the first Classical records I owned. A 101 strings LP. One of my favorites. I am am now searching for an up to date recording , orchestral, of the great Spanish music. The CD of the 101 strings' 'Soul of Spain' sounds horrible.

Cheers

Back to the music. This is some of the world's most beautiful music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2ksNyyuViQ

Enjoy the music.

*****very few people realize what RAP is. It's not music***

You joshing me?? hahahahaha

Well based on your statement, I am one of the chosen few!

Cheers

BTW, saw a thingy on tv today about local RAPPERS in the Republic of Georgia. It's everywhere, it's everywhere!

Rok, very few people realize what RAP is. It's not music, it's a social statement about The United States of America, made by a "Sub Culture" created by "The United States of America". 100 plus years of social and economic deprivation has resulted in a culture that's reflected by RAP; just listen to the lyrics and you'll see what I mean.

Frogman, that is nice. I do not see it on vinyl, but will get it anyway.

Thanks

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/06/how-to-conduct-beethoven-and-m.html

Very interesting. There was also a segment on PBS today concerning the pay scales and job oppourtunities for classical musicians, dancers and singers in the US. I could not find it online. it's worth searching for.

Bottom line, you do it,(classical artistic stuff) because you love it, cause you sure aren't going to make any money doing it. Europe is an exception. Seems as if 50% of our best go work there.

But at least we got our RAP!!! So there!

Cheers

Frogman, here's a favorite of mine by Charles Lloyd, "Forest Flower".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCkodrBZZo

Enjoy the music.

One of the most beautiful things I have heard in a while. Very distinctive tenor sound and an interpretation of this great tune that is intimate, tender, and intelligent. Charles Lloyd is without question one of the greats. Jason Moran on piano is wonderful. A great pairing.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jzcfobcXnXg

Rok, I don't know why, but classical music instantly causes flash-backs of the movie "Clockwork Orange".

Good music is just that "Good Music", no matter what the genre. I've been hearing the name "Conway Twitty" since I can remember, but he has never been on my "playlist"; now, thanks to you, he's on my "A" playlist. Find the best and leave the rest.

Enjoy the music.

O-10:

Very good. I like Dorothy Ashby. I listened to 'Misty' and 'House of The Rising Sun' along with the link you sent.

The harp did not sound out of place in the least. She had good players in the group also.

Music like this and you just know there are / will be, many CDs.

Some tunes / groups, you just know you are listening to what will be their entire output. I will have to get some of her stuff and read her history.

Thanks for the tip.

Jazz makes up about one third of my toatal number of CDs. So Like you, I listen to other stuff also. This thread got me back to Jazz more than I would have normally.

Today, it was, Haydn- The London Symphonies Vol 1 and the A Cappella group, The Persuasions.(A cappella soul) Both Great!

Cheers

Rok, I like crispy fried chicken, and I also like the same kind of classic jazz as you, but I don't want either one of them every day. Here is an artist that rarely tread well worn paths in regard to her jazz, even her instrument of choice, jazz harp was a bit unusual.

Along with Alice Coltrane, Dorothy Ashby extended the popularization of jazz harp past a novelty, showing how the instrument can be utilized seamlessly as much a bebop instrument as the saxophone. Her albums were of the jazz genre, but often moved into R&B, world and other musics, especially on her 1970 album The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby, where she demonstrates her talents on another instrument, the Japanese koto, successfully integrating it into jazz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY8k9sFZNwA

Enjoy the music.

Olatunji: Now that's a blast from the past. I have that tune on his 'Drums of Passion' CD.

I listened to him back in my Dylan, Baez, Saint-marie, (the young have all the answers) Phase.

The drumming is good. I just get tired, and quickly, of the repetitive chant. Esp since I have not a clue as to what he is saying.

Cheers

Normally I own all the CDs I 'review'. These are exceptions. But not for long. High quality Video, Audio and Performances.

I recommend anything by Bebo Valdes. I Discovered Diego El Cigala thru BBC music magazine article. He and Bebo are awesome together, as is Bebo and Chucho Valdes. These guys are 'serious' musicians. No jeans with holes in the knees here. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJGPlSrbUbg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKhwmFq6jM

Cheers

Rok, how about this religion; it's the same in Africa, Brazil, Haiti, or New Orleans, we talking about drums on fire, this is Babatunde Olatunji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWeDev0QWLc

Enjoy the music.

I can't turn my back for five minutes, and you guys are right back in that third world stuff. I thought you had all been converted to the real deal. Remember, it don't mean a thing, if.........

Looking for Religion? May i suggest this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOU38qRJPok

Cheers

Rok, you asked me what kind of music I liked besides jazz, well occasionally I get religion and want to go to Saturday Night Church; this is what it's all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9W3PcsjFBo

Enjoy the music.

Just noticed someone mentioned the tune "Angel Eyes" a couple of days ago. For all those who have not heard it, you MUST listen to Ella's rendition of this on her 40th Birthday Concert album, which was recorded live in Rome. Fantastic album, by the way, one of her very best, and that tune is one of the highlights of it.

Frogman, "Bengal And Beyond", including the sax works for me. Afro Cuban is just another one of the many fusions that work with jazz. On this tune I like the jazzy vocalizing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUFqUur7bZg

Now let us compare "Bengal And Beyond" to the Dave Brubeck Quartet from the album "Jazz Impressions of Eurasia" doing Calcutta Blues. I'm comparing the fusion of jazz with Indian music and how well it works. At the same time I'm illustrating what was done by a master, long before "Bengal And Beyond"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qNlHh4FiZo

Enjoy the music.

OK, since you opened the door with the 'Bengal Jazz' clip, here's one by the outstanding NY Gypsy All-Stars. Probably not going to float everybody's boat, but give it a chance. It's great stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p66kffsA_mQ&feature=player_detailpage

Listening to them led me to this band featuring 2 of it's members in a different setting/group; The Secret Trio. I love this record!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBNGLSLwjbA&feature=player_detailpage

Orpheus10, thanks for the link to the Radhakrishnan link. I enjoy the fusion of ethnic music within a jazz setting (jazz quartet). However, I find Bengal-jazz fusion to be generally less successful than, for instance, Afro-Cuban jazz. This particular example, while pleasant and competent, never really takes off for me. Likewise, the saxophone playing is not particularly inspired. The tone is not as well developed as that of most good jazz players and is consistently flat in pitch. Overall, the feeling that I am left with is that of a better university music school jazz quartet recital.

Glad you enjoyed (with reservations) the Bronislaw Kaper solo piano recommendation. Give it more of a chance, the positives (personal and insightful interpretations as only a composer can) transcend the minimalist setting.

Regards.

Recent Arrival:

Freddie Hubbard & Jimmy heath
JAM GEMS - "LIVE" AT THE LEFT BANK

Great Live recording. You know the audience is there, but it adds to the peformance. The sound is, as if you are sitting in the crowd. Might not be to 'audiophile' taste. Jazz lovers should love it. I think it was recorded by a Jazz Society in Baltimore.

Excellent liner notes, that even address why some folks just can't let go of the OLD stuff. Includes me.

Doc Pomus is quoted, explaining the difference between a studio record and a "LIVE" performance from the musicians perspective.. Very interesting.

The playing is just awesome. The tune 'Bluesville' almost approaches 'Hog Calling Blues'. Not quite, but that type of tune. You could say, 'they turned the joint out.' It was a true Jam Session, as the title states.

The rhythm section is not known to me, but they hung with the horns. All the tunes are long. 'Autumn Leaves' goes 17 minutes. Check it out.

Highly Recommended.

Cheers

O-10, I like the Prasant. First thing I hear is the good tone. They are playing in a different dialect of the Jazz language. I will have to listen some more.

Regarding pianist, I like to hear them in both settings. The group interaction is always of interest to me. Not just their solo's, but what do they add to the others. I also am interested in how they play when they have to carry everything on their own. Different ways of listening and playing.

One Saxophonist I followed and lost track of, is Craig Handy. I will have to see what he is doing today. Saw him with Herbie around this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKlFv0mhi3s

Leersfool, this version of "On Green Dolphin Street" has to be my favorite. Bill Evans "intro" on piano is what sets this version off from so many others, and of course Miles and Cannonball are really beautiful as well; but it's still Bill Evans piano that takes it away.

It's amazing how just one song can take you down so many very interesting paths; from Bronislaw Kaper, to Miles Davis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVnm66joQk

Enjoy the music.

Isochronism, your recommendation "Angel Eyes" by Jimmy Smith is a real winner. Like good wine, he's improved with age. His ability to plumb the musical depths of these standards, plus the very skillful use of excellent sidemen, made up for the lack of "fireworks" I've always associated with "Jimmy Smith".

While the names of some of the sidemen were new to me, I'll look for them in the future.

Enjoy the music.

Am I the only person who finds it difficult to appreciate "solo" piano; where's the bass, where's the saxophone, where's the something besides a lone piano. No reflection on the music or the artist, but a personal observation of my perception of music; I need a combination of instruments.

While it's been nice to hear Kaper's music played on solo piano by Kaper, this listener requires a band in order for the music to project a wide range of emotions, and get me involved.

Enjoy the music.

Speaking of famous solos:

Would anyone care to comment on Paul Gonsalves' 'Interlude' :) on 'Diminuendo in Blue and Crescendo in Blue'? Ellington at Newport.
I will assume we all have this! If not, turn in your Jazz Aficionado membership Card.

Cheers

Frogman, what do you think about Prasant Radhakrishnan, on saxophone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtYwiSiGRMs

Enjoy the music.

Rok, in regard to Dr. John, I like "Monkey and Baboon" better. There is only one kind of music for me, that's "good music", and Lila Downs knows how to make it.

For your listening pleasure; Dr. John followed by Lila Down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ecWUZDOIY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD0ZElWWlKQ

Enjoy the music.

Leersfool, you've already caused this jazz aficionado to purchase "The Film Music of Bronislaw Kaper", on solo piano. While the music is good it's not recommended for one reason only; when one person on piano has to project such a wide range of emotions, he has to use dynamic range and nuance like you wouldn't believe, this music only sounds good on my "He man" rig.

I'm enjoying the way you're introducing us to new music, and elements of music that I never observed before. Your contributions are invaluable, and I appreciate them.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, you open up a whole new discussion when you bring up film music. Definitely the most underrated aspect of film to the general audiences. Music has made the difference in so many great films. Some filmmakers even liked to have the music written first, and then build their scenes around it. A favorite example of this for me is Sergio Leone's Once Upon A Time In The West. The use of the music in that film is genius. But, we shouldn't hijack a jazz thread talking about that, so I'll shut up now.

Call and response. I should have said that. Considering how much Gospel I have heard in my life.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers

Speaking of great music. Currently watching 'HIGH NOON'. What would that movie be without the soundtrack. Just good, not great. Great commentary on human reaction to fear and pressure.

Cheers

****I felt the trumpet was 'commenting' on the lyrics of the song, or, talking to a seperate audience as DR John was telling his story.****

That's a great way of putting. "Call and response": We're saying the same thing.

From Wiki:

++++In music, a call and response is a succession of two distinct phrases usually played by different musicians, where the second phrase is heard as a direct commentary on or response to the first. It corresponds to the call-and-response pattern in human communication and is found as a basic element of musical form, such as verse-chorus form, in many traditions.++++

Wow is right!

I felt the trumpet was 'commenting' on the lyrics of the song, or, talking to a seperate audience as DR John was telling his story.

Simple playing, but taken in context, it is awesome!! The inflections spoke of 'outrage' or 'are you kidding me?'
Probably just me. I love it. Cranked up in my car, wow!

Reminds me in a way of Marsalis on Layla. Simple but wow!

Cheers

I am no monkey, but I will speak my mind about the Dr. John cut anyway :-)

In typical Dr. John fashion, amazing groove. And what a voice! Hard to believe, but as he gets older his voice drips more and more funk; it's almost scary. The band is smoking. Simple, repetitive playing, but grooving like there's no tomorrow in order to feature Dr. John's "from the gut" singing and Nicholas Payton's trumpet in great "call and response" interplay. I love the use of handclaps as percussion; somehow seems appropriate for a song about monkeys speaking to each other.

What I find most interesting about the song is how a fun and infectious groove can be married to lyrics with a strong social-conscious message. And what a message. Great stuff!

Rok, you got it as soon as I hear it.

O-10:

I liked the Blakey cut from the Drum CD. I have that on LP, but I will now have to get it on CD, Seems like everytime you post, it costs me money.

What other music do you listen to besides Jazz? And will someone pleeaassseee comment on Dr John's 'The Monkey Speaks His Mind' I have mentioned it several times over the months, to total silence.

Cheers

Thanks for all the info on Cuban bass, Players and technique. Sort of like what The Frogman said about Mariachi trumpet, the Bass playing readily identifies Cuban Music. Or at least some types of Cuban Music.

I have the Cachao 'Master Sessions vol one' CD. I will have to give it a listen today.

Cheers

Chazro, I really appreciated your in depth description of "Cachao". here is what I found on you tube that caught my ear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekrHk9Ktxp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYc76GeFSTo

Here is my favorite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN3XhJ6MpLw

Enjoy the music.

Excellent post Chazro.

****Does the Bass, the instrument, have any special place in Cuban music as compared to other Latin music??**** -Rok

One of the most distinctive and unique aspects of bass playing in Cuban music as opposed to, say, Brazilian music is that the bass rarely plays on beat one (!). Think about it. Beat one is the musical arrival point of a measure, a basic building block of any music's structure. In Cuban music the feeling of rhythmic arrival to the beginning of a measure is implied by the bass line, as opposed to actually having a note right on that beat; the bass note on beat one is held over from the previous beat (four). That is a key reason for the music's amazing swagger.