Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, that essay corroborates the most important point, "I told yall to stop beatin them damn drums", but don't tell Rok. Yes, that was a very important and serious essay, thanks loads for the information.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I just got a book every jazz aficionado should have, it has photos of all the musicians we've discussed, and then some. This book includes the intimate thoughts and wishes of all the greats.

The title of this book is "Three Wishes"; compiled and photographed by Pannonica De Koenigswarter, in it she asks the jazz greats if they could have three wishes fulfilled, what would the be? There is a beautiful photograph of a young Lee Morgan, sitting up sound asleep. The baby fuzz on his smooth face, and jet black hair tell his age. His three wishes were:

1. "To be held in high esteem by my fellow jazzmen, as well as the audiences-I mean jazz public."

2. "To make oodles of money, and use it wisely."

3. "To make a wonderful husband and father."

It's for certain his first wish was fulfilled, he's still my favorite on trumpet; but his life was cut too short for the last two wishes.

Miles Davis is madder than a march hare; his photos are the most outrageous in the book, and his one wish was "To be white". Ironically his life fulfilled most of the other musicians wishes, which were fame and fortune. Although there is no photo of "Bird", all of his colleagues are well represented. As I said, this is a must have for serious aficionados.

O-10, fascinating account of your trip to Haiti. This is an interesting essay that addresses, and corroborates, some of your points:

http://www.africa.kyoto-u.ac.jp/kiroku/asm_normal/abstracts/pdf/21-2/45-54.pdf

Frogman, I was in Haiti about 3 years after this movie was made, and Haiti was very much like the movie, "weird beyond belief". In regard to the voodoo music, it's like the air they breath; we were riding up a mountain trail on a half ass (that's a cross between a horse and a donkey) in "Cap Haitian", and on the side of the road, one kid was beating out this voodoo rhythm on a metal shovel that had been left by a road crew, while other kids were dancing to the music like their bodies had no bones. They did this to amuse themselves, it had nothing to do with tourism or anything else.

I only saw the movie many years after I had gone to Haiti, had I seen the movie first, I would not have gone to Haiti. Movies can come very close to reality.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOoFiCgcprU

O-10:

I did answer your question. You just have to fill in the details. Let me put it this way:

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, survives contact with American Culture!!! That's the answer to your question O-10. The details of the musical part of it, I leave to The Frogman.

A few folks doing some so-called voodoo thing in Nawlins, is not the same as saying African music has survived in this country. A lot people in Nawlins are from the Islands, not American at all. Even to this day.

Neither the Slaves nor any music they may have had, survived the culture clash. Hell, slavery itself could not survive it. The millions of Europeans immigrants of the 19th century did not survive.

For example, the French know this, but, because of their arrogance and illusions of grandeur, are fighting a losing battle against it. The rest of the planet has happily succumbed.

Worried about Chinese Power? You needn't. We have The Stones on Tour, Buick is the most popular car, and the Golden arches and KFC are everywhere. You can feel free to sleep like a baby.

The slaves and their music never stood a chance. This was not a beating on a log type place. They lived in a 'European' country. Cuba and Brazil were colonies 'administered' by Europeans. There is a difference.

Just a few things to ponder.
These slaves did not all come from the same village. Hell, they didn't even have the same religion or language!! And once here, they were displaced all over the South. Sort of hard to mantain 'traditions' in that enviroment.

How large a 'population/concentration' of people is required to sustain a culture? EVERYONE was not a musician or even cared about music.

And lastly, an inferior culture will always succumb to and try to adapt to a superior culture. That's just human nature. Beating on a log or western music? Who do you think is gonna win that one.

Also. America was the land of oppourtunity even by slave standards. Maybe not so much in Cuba or Brazil.

The Frogman was on target with his comments.

Cheers

Suggested reading: 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and 'The Diary of Mary Chesnut'

Acman3, this is the real deal all the way live, "makes me want to get up and boogie".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZnMmYJlE8

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, this is from the movie, compare it to Voodoo around the world, including New Orleans to this on "You tube", and notice the similarities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js0CAjUXv58

Canonical story[edit]Eurydice was the wife of Orpheus, who loved her dearly; on their wedding day, he played joyful songs as his bride danced through the meadow. One day, a satyr saw and pursued Eurydice, who stepped on a viper, dying instantly. Distraught, Orpheus played and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and deities wept and told him to travel to the Underworld to retrieve her, which he gladly did. After his music softened the hearts of Pluto and Persephone, his singing so sweet that even the Erinyes wept, he was allowed to take her back to the world of the living. In another version, Orpheus played his lyre to put Cerberus, the guardian of Hades, to sleep, after which Eurydice was allowed to return with Orpheus to the world of the living. Either way, the condition was attached that he must walk in front of her and not look back until both had reached the upper world. Soon he began to doubt that she was there, and that Hades had deceived him. Just as he reached the portals of Hades and daylight, he turned around to gaze on her face, and because Eurydice had not yet crossed the threshold, she vanished back into the Underworld. When Orpheus later was killed by the Maenads at the orders of Dionysus, his soul ended up in the Underworld where he was reunited with Eurydice.

Enjoy the music.

I should also have added the fact that in the USA, slaves had fewer rights (legal marriage, for instance) than slaves in other countries; consequently, they lost their connection to the past more readily.

****Nothing is being merged****

Of course it is. The depiction of "voodoo music" in a Hollywood film like "Black Orpheus" is no more accurate than the depiction of nightclubs in films. I would go so far as to say that the way nightclubs were depicted is more accurate; that's the nature of the film industry. There are very few places on our planet where indigenous musics still exist unadulterated by modern society to some extent; and if they do, they are certainly not part of the mainstream. If the question is: why is African native music as heard in places like Brazil closer to that of the African slaves (and I say "closer" because I suspect that there a many places in Africa where it is still fairly close to what it was 200 years ago) than in the USA? The answer is obvious: the more a country becomes industrialized, modernized, whatever one wants to call it, the less "pure" any one native art form will remain. Isn't that exactly what has been happening to jazz?

****Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here.****

Really? Besides Africa itself, where? Perhaps, to a degree, in places like Haiti and remote parts of Brazil where the above comments apply; and even in those places the indegenous musics have "merged" with it. And BTW, here in NYC there at still places where one can buy live chickens; and NOT because fresh tastes better. The point is that it has survived to varying degrees everywhere, but in a country like ours it is much more "fringe" than in others.

BTW, to be clear, I suspect you and I share the same feelings about internationalization. What I said poorly in my last post was that the music we love is the result of internationalization and all it's influences, creating a uniquely American mix.

Rok, this has nothing to do with jazz, this is exclusively about music from Africa. We can conclude that the only surviving music from Africa in this country was "Voodoo music", and the only reason it survived is because it was so secretive.

I've heard this very same music in movies, "Black Orpheus" from Brazil is one example. I'm sure that movie can be found on "You tube". The part where Orpheus goes to a ceremony in search of Eurydice is where you hear this music, including the same words and music that can be heard in New Orleans. These words are not Portuguese for Brazil, nor are they English for New Orleans, they are African. These words came with this music from Africa, and that was the only thing African that survived slavery in this country.

Now we can go back to our regularly scheduled program of jazz.

Enjoy the music.

****efforts to internationalize 'MY' music****

Why is that a bad thing? America is the epitome of internationalization; no?

Re the music, you might find this interesting reading:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ulLJUDmptFMC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=blue+notes+in+african+music&source=bl&ots=i1Ef8qb7Vk&sig=XqtXhhXVwANNGPOQB9aNPz9_vQQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0rR5Upm1F6nasASoo4L4Bw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=blue%20notes%20in%20african%20music&f=false

Cheers.

The Frogman:

*****There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American.****

My Response is "Numbers Count". So, while your statement is true, it is not true for real. As in, it does not reflect reality. I also charge you with using Jedi word tricks! :)

I just knew you and our distinquished OP would renew your efforts to internationalize 'MY' music. Help me Jesus!

Cheers

****The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz.****

Personally, I would word it slightly differently. There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American.

Nothing is being merged, we are talking about the origination of slaves and their music, this has absolutely nothing to do with the different races who came before or after. At this juncture, before we get back to our regularly scheduled programming of jazz, the question is what happened to the slaves music after they were imported to "America"? There is nothing in your post that answers this question. Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here.

Is this about Jazz or Just music in general? My comments were made thinking it was about Jazz.

As far as the Music part of this slavery stuff, there are many things to consider, such as:

And this applies to Brazil, Cuba and the USA.

Dominate Religion, Form of Government, Geographical location, climate, size of country, what was the economy based on, population size and ethnicity, and Political status of the area.

all of these things will shape the people, their relationships with each other and the art the create.

Folks in the USA had musical instruments to play. Violins (fiddles), guitars, pianos etc... Fife and Drum units were very big in North Mississippi. Maybe the folks in Cuba, and esp Brazil, only had drums (logs?) to beat.

The relationship between slaves and whites in the US was much different than those relationships in Brazil or Cuba. This fact shaped everything!

I could go on, but you get my point.

BTW, there are more black folks in Brazil than any other country except Nigeria. If you go to Brazil during 'Carnival', you will see them. Any other time, maybe not.

The Spanish came to the New World Looking for Gold. The English came looking for God. That explains a lot.

You may be trying to merge apples with oranges.

Cheers

Rok, if this drum nonsense is "nonsense", explain why it was retained everywhere slaves were imported except here. Remember, all arguments must be supported "audibly".

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I definitely agree on the beginning, and although that music came from Africa, it may longer exist in Africa in it's truest form, but only in Brazil.

Rok, I've always liked the "Voodoo music", just as much as I liked "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". (No one could have been in taller cotton) And I put as much religious connotation on Voodoo music as I put on "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". There are elements of the Voodoo drums in much of African music, that's why I want to strip the music from the religion as much as possible.

This is an "audible" excursion, we are judging everything by ear.

Enjoy the music.

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,

Let's not move so fast of this 'African" stuff. It's not as simple as you are making out.

The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz.

Cultural forces don't move that fast. More like glaciers. The only possible African influence would have been from people arriving here directly from Africa during the slave trade. Importation of slaves into this country ended in 1810, if I recall correctly.

Once here, the influences were Euro-American. Primarily music inspired by The King James version of the Holy Bible.

Please don't make me have to fight off VooDoo!!! And to think, someone once chastised me for saying you have to DEFEND the music! :)

And finally, O-10, this drum nonsense, is just that.

Cheers

**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.****

So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo

Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"):

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo

Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and you get something like this; the "choro", the first popular Brazilian style:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46M-Eor8D08

**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.****

So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo

Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"):


Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style:

[URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo[URL]

Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style:

[URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo

As far as music going back to Africa from America…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxtyJtl2Tuo

Man, I can't keep up,with you guys! Re nightclubs/movie sets:

http://flavorwire.com/362558/

WOW!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCa8b4CgZeI

Cheers

This was my 'signature' tune when I played Trumpet in my High School Band. Talk about being in 'Tall Cotton'!! :)
Miles Who??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCa8b4CgZeI

Cheers

Rok, this time it's about the evolution of music from Africa since the time of slavery, and how it's represented in this hemisphere; that would also include a comparison of evolution in the reverse direction, meaning from here to Africa.

It's really beautiful when you think of artists like Hugh Maselela, and Miriam Makeba where the evolution went in the reverse direction of my original post.

Enjoy the music.

While the music in Africa, which was the point of origination, evolved; the music in Brazil, in Bahia for example, could be the same as when it left the continent of Africa hundreds of years ago. I find the Afro Brazilian music more pleasing to my musical sensibilities than the music of Africa, and some of it could be the African original, since it's traditional.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ORkB1eKWE

This music "Pops" like nothing I've heard recently.

Enjoy the music.

Acman3:

Both enjoyable clips. The Dollar Brand could just as easily been Masekela. But who doesn't like Masekela.

Jazz?? No. But I don't know if O-10's journey is about Jazz or just music.

The South African Jazz scene will mature once they get pass every tune having to involve native dress, dancing and Apartheid.

Nice Clips

Cheers

Acman3, you're definitely into the swing of things, this is history by ear and nothing else. This music came from Africa with the slaves, and was suppressed, that's why we didn't hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJUWRThg-c



Enjoy the music.

Rok, they came from Africa, what happened to the music?

O, Every journey has a beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8rKFHxnOe8

Skipping slavery, but not oppression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izJYZhZgkMg

O-10:
Great music clip. I love that sort of music.

If we go on a musical journey, I'm getting off in Brazil. I just love the sound of vocal Brazilian music, esp that sung by females.

Your narrative about African music in Cuba and Brazil, and the lack of African music in the U.S., is very interesting. I think I agree with most of what you said. A few things, I will have to 'ponder' and respond to later.

I disagree that slavery in this country was 'by far the cruelest'. History proves that it was not. And, slavery was not that bad, all things considered. It's not like, Work visas or tourtist visas, were an option. If the choice is Africa or America, I choose America.

My observation is, African American people have had the least contact with Africa, and have been influenced the least by Africa, of all black peoples. (thank you Jesus0. Since Afro-American music has influenced music world wide. That is telling.

I will try to make a contribution to this project, with full understanding of the risk of incurring the wrath of The Frogman when we get to Cuba. :)

Cheers

Here's the music from Nawlins, it's the same as the music in Haiti or Brazil. It came to this hemisphere with the slaves, and survived all of those centuries "unchanged"; that's what I call a history without a history book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJUWRThg-c

The Frogman:

Youtr comments on Ellington are right on point. I knew that. He is more than a Jazz player or Band leader. Much more.

I just wanted to claim him for 'Our' own. 'Our,' being us Jazz lovers. Let the Classical and 'Tin Pan Alley' folks get their own Duke!

Cheers

O-10:

Movie sets. All staged. But still, a nice illusion.

Cheers

Rok, and Frogman, with your help I would like to take a very interesting historical journey; we'll do it "audibly". I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.

Baden Powell is an artist who was the favorite of a professional jazz musician I knew, his music has stood the test of time in my collection, and it's the just right blend of Afro Brazilian jazz that stands repeated listening.

"Canto De Ossanha" is one of my favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgS16Ipnr2E

Next is a very languid version of "Lemanja".


I would like for us to explore Afro Brazilian the same way we explored Afro Cuban, we didn't skim the surface, but went deep; bypass the commercial, there is a wealth of this music we haven't heard before.

I've noticed a big difference between the different Afro Blends. Afro- Cuban, is quite different from the Brazilian. The most unique aspect of Afro Brazilian music is the berimbau. Here is the website that gives a description of this instrument.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berimbau>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcpfHAJZagE[url]

I would like for us to explore Afro Brazilian the same way we explored Afro Cuban, we didn't skim the surface, but went deep; bypass the commercial, there is a wealth of this music we haven't heard before.

I've noticed a big difference between the different Afro Blends. Afro- Cuban, is quite different from the Brazilian. The most unique aspect of Afro Brazilian music is the berimbau. Here is the website that gives a description of this instrument.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berimbau

Slaves in Brazil escaped and set up a free community in Brazil called Palmares that lasted for almost 100 years; that's why the "Afro" in Afro Brazilian is so pervasive. This was a historical secret for quite some time. While the "berimbau" was one of their favorite instruments, nobody knows precisely where it came from, that's what I mean when I say "Afro Brazil" is unique.

While there is "Afro-Cuban", there is no "Afro-American"; slave masters evidently told them "I want yall to stop beatin them damn drums, ya hear me", and they quit. Slavery in this country was by far the cruelest. African music came to this country from Cuba or Haiti, it was not passed down from the African slaves. Nothing African, that's audible, came my way before Dizzy Gillespie, and that was from Cuba. The only thing that survived was the "Voodoo music" in New Orleans, and it would not have survived if it had not been kept secret. While this religion and it's music are one inseparable package, we want to focus exclusively on the music. Here is some accompanying music from New Orleans, check "New Orleans Voodoo" on you tube, there is no doubt about it's origin; "Africa"!

If you go to Haiti, you will hear this same music; kids can beat this out with a rock in each hand banging on a metal shovel, while others dance to the music.

This same music and rituals can be heard anywhere in Brazil if you are invited to one of the secret meetings, and I'm sure the same goes for Cuba; but this isn't about the rituals, this is exclusively about music from Africa that survived through that horrible thing called slavery.

Enjoy the music.

“It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where jazz starts or where it stops, where Tin Pan Alley begins and jazz ends, or even where the borderline lies between classical music and jazz. I feel there is no boundary line.” - Duke Ellington

****I had to cringe at the Ellington quote. Can a mere mortal disagree with The Duke?? Some people might take his statement too literal.**** Rok

First of all, I seem to remember a comment by you a while back, something along the lines of "sometimes I think listeners are more purist than the artists themselves". Well, there's some truth to that. Concerning Duke, remember the context (funny how we keep coming back to context). He was a composer and orchestrator who "lived" in and was very close to both genres; he wrote music that did in fact blur the lines between the two. And if I may, a comment I made: "One can never know too much". Look at a picture in a newspaper: the further you step back, the clearer boundary lines appear. The closer you get to the picture, the more you see the dots that make up each image; the more the boundaries get blurred.

Rok, Frogman; do either of you know if there were ever any night clubs with that kind of ambiance, or were those just movie sets. I've been around, but never to a night club with that kind of setting; maybe they were just in New York, and before my time?

Even better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orhf_Xv6HCA

Cheers

I thought maybe The O-10 could pick up some fashion pointers from this. Then he won't have to go around looking like Spike Jones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlE-Zv4Pyhk

What do Beethoven's 5th, Ellington's Jeep Blues and Calloways's Minnie the Moocher all have in common? It will take a true Aficionado two seconds to answer this.

Cheers

Hey, don't blame me for this. They are playing this stuff on the local PBS station as I type. Some of this dancing is actually painful to watch! hahahahahah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8yGGtVKrD8

Cheers

Very wise decision Frogman.

BTW,
There are two quotes in the liner sleeve of the 'Gershwin's World' CD. One by Gershwin, and one by Ellington.

The Gershwin quote is dead on!! Could not agree more. He nailed it. It might also explain the state of Jazz today. The nation's store of engery is winding down.

I had to cringe at the Ellington quote. Can a mere mortal disagree with The Duke?? Some people might take his statement too literal.

Cheers

*****BTW, speaking of Herbie and Orpheus Chamber Orchestra checkout Herbie's "Gershwin's World", absolutely beautiful record,******

I have it, and I agree.

I understand about the privacy thing. Esp on this place. Lousy with Barracudas.

Cheers

Thanks for asking. Yes, but I like my privacy and anonymity, and I don't like to toot my own horn (pun intended); especially on public forums. I am sure you have noticed that I don't play the "as a professional musician...." card. I will say, however, that the CD's range from movie soundtracks, to recordings with The NY Philharmonic, The Saturday Night Live Band, Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, Met Opera, Mario Bauza, Paquito D'Rivera, NY Pops and lots in between. No false modesty here, but that's way more information than I am comfortable with :-) for a host of reasons, not the least of which is the nature of the industry that I am in; it is a very small community.

BTW, speaking of Herbie and Orpheus Chamber Orchestra checkout Herbie's "Gershwin's World", absolutely beautiful record,

The Frogman:

Do you appear on any CDs they we might listen to?

Cheers

The Frogman:

Nice clip of Pastorius. It definitely had that 70's sound. Sort of brought to mind, Stax / Memphis Soul / Booker T / type sound.

I have several by Sanborn, mostly on LP. Herbie seems to be a Jack of All Trades. I have him playing 'HANDEL' of all people!

Cheers

Rok, I have a feeling this will get YOU moving:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PE6HmArln_k

BTW, Sam and Dave on vocals, Herbie Hancock on keys, and in the horn section (among others) the previously discussed tuba player Howard Johnson on baritone saxophone (one of his doubles), and a young Dave Sanborn before he became a "star".

Well, I guess it proves that I am not Polish. Got ME moving. Nice groove. Thanks.

Also, thanks for the clip O-10. Very nice. Vibes and flute create an interesting sonority; all that metal I guess.