O-10:
Mungo Jerry: good driving music.
Dr. John: one of those special artist that never makes a bad record. All of his stuff is very good. I think because he is an authenic artist. He lives in the enviroment that produces the music.
Check out his CD "dis dat or da udder". Not a weak track in sight.
BTW, anyone into Shaped Note singing? I love it.
Cheers |
O-10:
****I can feel Horace Silver's presence in this music, that's just how much of a difference, a great leader makes in the music*****
Of all recent losses, his death truly sadden me. Almost as if I had known him. In Nica's book, his first wish was for immortality. I think he really loved his music life. It showed in his performances.
Over-used word, but he was a true Giant.
Cheers |
O-10:
****That's the story of my life, "I was in the right place at the wrong time".*****
No guts no glory! You must seize the moment! Did you tell her you knew Miles? :)
Cheers |
O-10:
****I've done this a number of times, and added considerably to my collection by doing so. Occasionally, I've added brand new musicians, but primarily it was old musicians who I thought, I already had their greatest recordings.*****
My only problem with youtube clips is that, while I may love the clip, I have to think, can I listen to an entire CD of this music. A little, of some music, goes a long way.
Cheers |
O-10:
*****Over the years, I have discovered there are great leaders, and great sidemen; when a great "sideman" makes a record makes a record without one of the great leaders he's recorded with over the years, it falls flat. *******
Truer words were never spoken!! It's amazing how often you mention stuff that I happened to be thinking of, along the same lines.
It's why some people that I declare noise makers, can be brilliant when playing as sideman to other artist. I can even think of quite a few Blue Note types. I won't call names.
As always, you have the insight of a true 'aficionado'.
Cheers
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Tom Harrell is one of the great ones! Besides the records I own of him playing with Phil Woods I've got, and easily recommend, 'Time's Mirror', 'Paradise', & 'Live At The Vanguard'. There's one that I own that's always been a dichotomy for me; 'Wise Children'. It's the only record of his that I own where he seems to be playing in a different style of Jazz style. kind of that modern Soul/Jazz (for lack of a better term). The record features tunes with Diane Reeves, Claudia Acuna, Jane Monheit, and Cassandra Wilson. It's good but I'll admit it's my least-played Harrell record EXCEPT FOR....the title song Wise Children. It stands alone on the record. It's one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking songs I've ever heard. I always hear it as an ode to 9/11. it's not referred to as such anywhere on the album but the cover is a painting that to my mind suggests the Towers. I'm listening to it as I type, God, it has such a sense of tragic gravitas to it. If you have an iTunes account, go pick up the tune for $.99 and hear for yourself! |
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"Carmen Jones": I had recently befriended a young soldier who was about the same age as me, and we decided to see the movie "Carmen Jones". When we got to the theater, standing out front, was one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen; she was dressed in a tight fitting, white "Carmen Jones" dress; that was a full dress that fitted tight, and flared at the bottom, it revealed a perfect figure.
Instantly, we both had the same idea, so we proceeded to make ourselves acquainted. When she talked to me, her eyes were on him. After I noticed his resemblance to "Harry Belefonte", I could see that I didn't stand a chance; I was witnessing love at first sight. During the movie, they couldn't keep their eyes off one another long enough to see the flick.
That's the story of my life, "I was in the right place at the wrong time".
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I never took the the time to estimate "Regina Carter" one way or the other, but for now, she's in the spotlight for me.
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Learsfool:
I surrender. I guess everyone understands it except me.
Cheers |
Rok, I am flabbergasted. I was directly quoting you, not Frogman. Everything Frogman has said is indeed perfectly clear, and what you have said about "nuts and bolts" does not in any way resemble anything he has said. Assuming that you are being serious, clearly you have misunderstood him, but I cannot figure out how, so I guess we will have to drop the subject.
Acman, I don't recall that quote from the Narnia books, but it has been a very long time since I read them, so you are probably right. |
Rok, I've done this a number of times, and added considerably to my collection by doing so. Occasionally, I've added brand new musicians, but primarily it was old musicians who I thought, I already had their greatest recordings.
Enjoy the music. |
Acman, I can feel Horace Silver's presence in this music, that's just how much of a difference, a great leader makes in the music. Over the years, I have discovered there are great leaders, and great sidemen; when a great "sideman" makes a record makes a record without one of the great leaders he's recorded with over the years, it falls flat. Rather than using any names, because it would appear that I'm putting these great musicians who were sidemen down, I'll allow you to think of examples of this.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, you left out just plain stupid. |
Anyone ever go back thru all the posts on this thread and play the clips presented? Some great stuff! I just finished listening to and watching Jesse Cook. Presented by O-10.
Try it sometime.
Cheers |
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Rok, I could continue the silliness and ask you to point out one single statement that I have made that is not defensible, but I will let your ridiculous comment pass and simply say that it is time, once again, for me to take a break from trying to have meaningful dialogue with you; unfortunately (and I mean that) it's simply too difficult and all too often devoid of the only reason that I have bothered to begin with. The issue of N&B is a prime example of why its so difficult. That you still think that I have not made it perfectly and absolutely clear what I have meant by the use of the term is really beyond my understanding. There can only be two reasons why this may be: 1. It's one more example of the common tactic to obfuscate the issue when you, yourself, are the one who makes an indefensible statement. Or 2. You have so little understanding of both the particulars of and the general conceptual premise that the term N&B addresses that you truly can't see what's right in front of you. It appears to be true that ignorance is bliss for some.
Anyway, I am sure I will be checking in again some time. Until then, Happy Listening and Happy 4th.
Cheers. |
I may have underestimated this young lady.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1257690
Cheers |
O-10:
Interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDO1SL-gj98
Cheers |
O-10:
The Nicholas Brothers, WOW. How do they do that?? Amazing! The best dancers EVER!!!
I fell in love with Miss Dandrige after seeing the movie CARMEN JONES. If my thought dreams could have been seen, my mom would have washed my mind out with lye soap. What a beauty she was. Went to sleep a many a night, with her on my mind.
Thanks for the clips.
Cheers |
Learsfool:
*****I grant you the use of your term as you want to use it - that's not the issue *****
Thank you. That's an important point.
**** I know of no musician who would say "playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that alone, can make a player great." This is absurd on the face of it, no musician would ever say that.*****
Aboslutely true!! I agree with you. Well, one might. :)
***** What we do not understand is that you really do seem to think that many do?? ******
AHA!! now we get to the core of the problem. This is an example of The Frogman's Jedi Mind Tricks. He makes a statement, finds it cannot be defended, and now, all at once it's MY statement. I do not think this!! I use N&Bs to sum up what I feel THE FROGMAN thinks.
He said as much when we talked about the clip with some trumpet player and Phil Woods. I can't quote him, but I came away with the idea that he thought the trumpet solo to be the 'perfect' bebop solo. I thought it was noise.
This is the clip where I pointed out the obvious, that Woods is Fat.
So Learsfool, you are preaching to the Choir. You need to ask The Frogman to clarify / explain Nuts and Bolts. It's his term. Once he does that, we can start all over again. Perhaps, I will then have to rename "nuts and Bolts" Jazz.
In the mean time, lets remember Ellington's " It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that certain something" :)
Cheers |
Hi guys - just caught up to all the posts today. Rok, I guess you now want to move on, but before we do, I honestly, along with Frogman, am even more confused about what you think you are talking about with your "nuts and bolts" comment. I grant you the use of your term as you want to use it - that's not the issue - the issue is it is not at all clear. I know of no musician who would say "playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that alone, can make a player great." This is absurd on the face of it, no musician would ever say that. What we do not understand is that you really do seem to think that many do?? Could you give us a specific example?? I am not trying to attack your position, I am honestly trying to understand it, as it seems to make no sense.
Far be it from me to diss Central Texas, by the way. I am very familiar with it, having grown up there. I was merely describing the classical music scene as compared to the country/alternative rock scene down there. |
O-10:
I have this one and I think you might like it also.
Folkways: A vision shared. A Tribute to Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly.
Awesome performances by all. From Bruce Springsteen to Sweet Honey in the Rock.
One of my favorites: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZtIq8I6hlo
Cheers |
Rok, I thought long and hard, no I don't remember any fat people, even as much as they ate then; while food was the biggest thing in life in the country, there was always a lot of work to be done. Our existence is so much easier now, even if it is much more complex. Yes, I recall walking barefooted down dirt roads, and how good that soft dirt felt under bare feet. I also recall some of the most beautiful fragrances wafting by, they smelled better than any cologne or perfume. Where they came from I don't know, whether they came from wild flowers, bushes, trees or whatever, these different beautiful fragrances wafted by quite regularly in the country. Sorry, I don't remember any music in Winona, but I do remember the music from that time, and here is some of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMR3OnbmWkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xovmaG9S0sQAlthough Dorothy Dandrige is more colorful, I think this one by Ella Mae Morse was the one we heard on the radio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ortOAiClE34Enjoy the music. |
O-10:
Winona, Mississippi: I have been thru there a million times. Mostly on my way to Huntsville, Alabama, when I was in the Army. I think US 82 crosses I-55 there. I also have to go thru there to visit Kin folks in West Point and Tupelo.
The clip, 'Country Girl', I have on my CD of the Chocolate drops. I have their CD "Leaving Eden". It's pretty good. I leave it out on my desk so I can play it often.
Never had churned butter, but many biscuits. Have primed a few pumps and gathered firewood in my time. No greater place to be a child. What's better than running in the dirt barefooted?
Did you realize that there were no fat people then?
Cheers |
****No one is trying to "impress". I nor Learsfool (I am confident in stating) need this forum to "impress";*****
No one could get my comments on artist vs consumer wrong, unless one did it on purpose. Lets move on. I concede all points to you.
Cheers |
No, I never heard of the "Carolina Chocolate Drops" until you mentioned them, but they make my kind of music. After going to "You tube" I got an obsession to go south and look for a "Country Girl". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVIaiADsyYoThey were walking along a road with a tall metal container that had two handles in the foreground, and it took me awhile to figure out what it was, "a churn", that's what they made butter with. Have you ever had churned butter on hot biscuits? That's going back to a time when they didn't even have electricity where we went, Winona Mississippi. All I remember is a big lone house in the middle of nowhere on a dirt road; but that's the old south "dirt roads", they didn't know what concrete was. I find it amazing that the south has changed so much, that a lot of people are finding country living preferable to the city; I can understand that. Enjoy the music. |
Not clear at all, Rok; especially given some of your other comments. Anyway, this is, once again, a case of "Mars and Venus"; some things are irreconcilable.
No one is trying to "impress". I nor Learsfool (I am confident in stating) need this forum to "impress"; actually practicing (no pun intended) what we preach is the best way to do that and we do it on a regular basis. What we try to do is offer well-intended insights into aspects of music and the music scene that are not readily available to everyone as a way for those open to the idea to expand their knowledge and appreciation. You seem intent on creating your own personal reality about what the music scene is and challenge whatever doesn't jibe with your reality. Anyway, no sweat. O-10 was correct in part with an earlier comment:
Chaqun a son gout!
Cheers |
***** by very clearly suggesting that you "something was wrong" with Miles because he did attend Juilliard; and absurd comment; perhaps you were joking. Please clarify.****
It was obviously said in Jest. You and Learsfool need to lighten up. Chill. Put on a little MJQ!
Cheers |
O-10:
BTW, your Marantz is probably the most beautiful of all their CD players.
Cheers |
O-10:
***Unless you have traveled the south on two lane black top roads by "Trailways" bus, you ain't seen the south. ***
Ain't that the truth! My mode was Greyhound. I remember going from Ft Campbell, KY to Ft Bragg, NC in the wee hours of the morning. You are spot on about the cabins in the middle of nowhere. Trees forever. I thought, how could someone live this isolated. In truth, they were probably having a bluegrass jam session as I rode by. :)
I will have to get the Southern Comfort. Have you ever heard of the of the group, 'Carolina Chocolate Drops'?
Cheers |
O-10:
I agree about Marantz. This is my third Marantz player currently in my rack. I just got the CD6005. It appears to be the SA8005, without the SACD function. Same DAC, and it has the USB input.
So far I am very pleased with it.
I also have the SA8001(sacd) and the CD5004.
Cheers |
****BTW, what happened with that on-line music course you were considering? You should do it. ****
I am still reading my book. Very interesting. But I have no interest in becoming a musician. I may be lacking in my N&B knowledge, but I know Jazz when I hear it!! :)
Cheers |
**** but, with due respect, when it comes to some of these topics, you don't know what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't have to ask some of the questions that you do. ****
I don't HAVE TO ask any questions. Asking questions, and the answers, do not make me enjoy my music more. Just curious.
I know exactly what I am talking about. I always respect your facts. Your opinion is actually not as important as mine. Because I am a member of the most important group in the entire music equation. The Consumer! You guys don't impress us, you don't eat. Just the facts.
Cheers |
****Don't you understand how ridiculous that comment is? Have you any idea how many great musicians there are in the jazz and the classical world who are assholes? And why are you denigrating all Rock musicians?****
OK class, lets read every word very carefully.
I said, "I can't imagine". That is different from saying "Every musician is in fact". I don't know all these people, and neither do you, so I am basing this or media I have seen, heard, or read about the artist. But please, do feel free to submit a list of Famous, Great, Jazz players, who are also Assholes.
I trash Rock 'musicians' because they destroyed Rock & Roll.
Cheers |
***you are not a particularly good communicator via what you write. Example:****
Wrong answer! I am an excellent communicator. The problem is, you have this habit of reading what you wish I had said, rather than what I actually said.
****Nuts and Bolts is a term I use to reflect an attitude. And that is, that playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that along, can make a player great.****
***Huh! If you mean this then it would go counter to everything that you have said previously about the subject.***
Allow me to say Huh!!! I am telling you that when I use the term N&B, I am referring to an attitude YOU have. YOU, not me. So how does the statement run counter to anything I have said? After all, it's you that champions all these school trained noise makers, not me. |
****Why not submit a list, for us aficionados, of GREAT Jazz players, who were great, BECAUSE, they went to Juilliard.****
I am almost speechless. I have no idea how or why you arrived at the conclusion that anyone has ever suggested this. All I can think of in response is the scene in Shawshank Redemption where Andy goes to speak to the warden after having been given proof that he can use to show that he is innocent of the crime; after several attempts at trying to get the warden to consider what he is saying he says "How can you be so obtuse?"
:-)
Now, PLEASE try to explain to me WITH EXAMPLES/QUOTES what has been said so far to suggest that a jazz player can be great BECAUSE he attended Juilliard. You, on the other hand, started this whole Juilliard mess by very clearly suggesting that you "something was wrong" with Miles because he did attend Juilliard; and absurd comment; perhaps you were joking. Please clarify. |
Rok, c'mon. We don't have a habit of misquoting you nor of shooting down anything. The truth is that when discussing these topics you are not a particularly good communicator via what you write. Example:
****Nuts and Bolts is a term I use to reflect an attitude. And that is, that playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that along, can make a player great.****
Huh! If you mean this then it would go counter to everything that you have said previously about the subject.
First of all, "nuts and bolts" is not an attitude. From the first time that I used that term I have been very clear about its intended meaning: study of the rudiments of musicianship and being an instrumentalist or vocalist; music theory, rhythm, the mechanics of playing an instrument (including one's voice) etc. ALL players, regardless of genre, have to do that in order to achieve greatness. So, for the sake of clarity and for a discussion to not to turn into an incoherent mess, we should stick to that meaning of the term.
****I cannot imagine any musician, other than so-called Rock musicians, being anything other than nice human beings.****
Don't you understand how ridiculous that comment is? Have you any idea how many great musicians there are in the jazz and the classical world who are assholes? And why are you denigrating all Rock musicians?
As I wrote that comment it became clear to me what the problem is in these discussions. We all have a right to our opinions; but, we don't have a right to present them as fact without being able to back them up. I have said this before, I admire your passion and your inquisitiveness (as of late); but, with due respect, when it comes to some of these topics, you don't know what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't have to ask some of the questions that you do.
BTW, what happened with that on-line music course you were considering? You should do it.
Cheers. |
The Frogman / Learsfool:
Why not submit a list, for us aficionados, of GREAT Jazz players, who were great, BECAUSE, they went to Juilliard.
Cheers |
Learsfool, I am glad you chimed in about that. I was going to after first reading the comment about Juilliard, but frankly I was almost in a state of disbelief at the comment and all I could muster was my "retort" about Wynton having also attended Juilliard. I certainly agree with your comments.
This topic has come up before in this thread and I am mystified at the apparent insistence that somehow jazz players don't require or, at least benefit greatly from, the kind of study and dedication to music theory, instrumental rudiments, purposeful honing of rhythm via intense practice, and many other ingredients of good musicianship (the nuts and bolts) the way that classical players do; that somehow the authenticity of jazz is diminished if the player does that. Obviously, that is simply not true and points to a very sophomoric understanding of what making music is about. The great jazz players were relentless practicers and voracious students of all aspects of music. |
Learsfool:
Berlin vs Austin. I just used an extreme example in my attempt to make sure The Frogman understood my question. I was trying to find out if the musical scores, for all Orchestras, regardless of rank, were the same. I was not trying to compare Austin to Berlin in any other manner.
Thanks for dissing Central Texas. I'll have you know that Austin is the Live Music Capitol of the World. Don't believe it? Ask them!
Cheers |
Learsfool:
Nuts and Bolts is a term I use to reflect an attitude. And that is, that playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that along, can make a player great.
You and The Frogman have a habit that drives me nuts. You misquote me, and then shoot down the misquote!
I was speaking of great players being asked about, not so great, or unknown players. "What do you think of so & so?"
Answer: Oh man, he is a great player. I wish I had him in my band. He will be the best someday. etc......
They will never say anything negative about a player regardless of that player's skill or potential. Why?
I think it's just because they are all nice guys. And they were not born great, so they know what it's like to struggle.
I cannot imagine any musician, other than so-called Rock musicians, being anything other than nice human beings.
Cross-genre? You are correct. They all respect each other. The great ones. Beverly Sills once said that Ella Fitzgerald had the most perfect voice she had ever heard. She was not being nice. Just factual. And I am sure the feeling was mutual.
My comments were about the great, being asked about the not so great, and unknown. And Nuts and Bolts, as I use it, means, if anything, a school of thought. Sort of like saying, you can go to school and learn how to be a great Jazz player. You can't. If you could, I would be one. :)
Cheers |
Listened to today:
Horace Silver -- DOIN' THE THING -- AT THE VILLAGE GATE
Horace Silver -- JAZZ HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR
Charles Mingus -- OH YEAH
George F. Handel -- WATER MUSIC / FIREWORKS MUSIC
Both Silver CDs were great. His death really sadden me. Surprised me. This is from his liner notes of the 'Sense of Humor' CD. The players he talks about are the group on this CD. Kisor plays trumpet, and has a beautiful tone. They were all good.
"I haver often been concerned about the state of Jazz in the future since most of our older masters of the music have passed on. I don't feel I have to be concerned about that issue any longer since fine young musicians like Ryan Kisor,Jimmy Greene,John Webber, and Willie Jones III are on the scene.....there are many more young Jazz musicians who are capable of carrying the music forward and insuring that it stays alive and vibrant. Insuring that it remains pure and unadulterated. Insuring that the masters have not sacrificed and dedicated their lives to this music in vain. Long live jazz in it's pure and unadulterated form."
He then dedicated the album to Thomas 'Fats' Waller.
Any Comments?
Nice interview with mingus at the end of his CD. Talks about his early career. He played with everyone, including Armstrong. Was afraid to travel down south with Pops, so he quit the band. Disappoints me to know that. Talks about influences like Joe Turner and T-Bone Walker.
The Water Music is the one The Frogman recommended. The English Concert / Pinnock. As always, The Frogman was spot on! Thanks.
I may have submitted this one before. It's LvB's 9th. Played at the 2012 porms. I am sending it again just for the interview at the beginning with Barenboim. I don't remember it being part of the clip last time. He makes some interesting comments about the symphony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vypj9NCINdM
Cheers |
Rok, I have read through this whole last week's posts on this thread and I still have no idea a) just exactly what you think you mean by "nuts and bolts" and b) why you apparently set no value on it. Frogman made a valiant attempt to explain, and I'm not sure I can add to his.
The thing that puzzles me the most is when you say you don't buy it that artists have great appreciation for others in their field who do things very differently from them. Frankly, your position and arguments make no sense. Why wouldn't Renee Fleming appreciate Ella Fitzgerald? Why wouldn't Wynton appreciate Miles? Why wouldn't Picasso appreciate Matisse? Why wouldn't Shakespeare appreciate Joyce? Or the other way around in any of these examples?? Great artists will always respect the craft of others (is this term more acceptable to you?), even if they dislike what is being created with that craft. You can substitute the violin examples earlier instead, but as a brass player it is more natural for me to bring up the trumpet ones - absolutely no one, even the people who hate him, would ever say that Wynton could not play, or disrespect his craft. He has this in spades, more than any other jazz trumpeter ever, and all the others greatly appreciate it, even if they don't care for the music he makes with it. Everyone who is any good at all has worked very hard at their craft, and appreciates others who have done the same. Same thing in the world of athletics. When two of the best are battling it out, whether it be individual or team sports, the opponents have to have the utmost respect for each other's game, even if they are very different styles, and they don't like each other's style, or don't like them personally, or whatever. |
"Southern Comfort" and the "new" Regina Carter were a surprise from jump street. The first cut "Miners Child" caught my attention; she gets into Appalachian music like I've never heard it before, her violin became a southern country fiddle.
Somehow this music brought back memories of riding on a "Trailways" bus, on a moonlit night gazing across wide expanses of nothing except for an occasional farm house silhouetted by the moonlight. Unless you have traveled the south on two lane black top roads by "Trailways" bus, you ain't seen the south. Her music brought back those memories, it was also reminiscent of Ry Cooders music that paints southern landscapes.
This "new" Regina Carter was a very pleasant and welcome surprise that defied genre.
Enjoy the music.
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****Hmmmm, so did Wynton.*****
Wynton also plays Classical music. He probably went to Juilliard to keep up on his nut&bolts. Or he could have been getting his "ticket punched" for the gig at Lincoln Center. Since NYC is completely under the control of N&Bism.
Cheers |
Learsfool:
HOOK'EM HORNS!!
Cheers |
Rok, Marantz gives the biggest bang for the buck in CD players. I have the SA 8260, it's old now. I'm curious, what model? The new ones are computer compatible, which actually saves you money because you don't have to by a DAC for computer digital out. I'm sure you'll hear new music from your old CD's.
Enjoy the music.
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