Rok, fossils still like to look at foxes; although I noticed the audience was quietest when she was just moving and not singing.
Well folks, apparently it's time to get back to our regularly scheduled program, unless someone has more to add on Cuba.
Rok, am I ever glad I still have my Miriam Makeba records. When I tried to replace them with CD's, I found they don't exist. Her best records were made about the time she made that clip. My research person told me some were only released in Europe, and are very expensive; I didn't ask, "How expensive"?
If anyone has anything to add to the Cuban dialogue, fine, otherwise we'll get back on the tracks.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10: This may be representive of the Jazz scene within Cuba. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnoDOSv7_oThe music being played inside Cuba should be the most authentic Cuban Jazz being played today. Since The Frogman says the regime frowns on Jazz, there might not be that much NEW, to discover. Except the expatriates. Cheers |
Rok, thank you for that piece of fascinating history on Valaida Snow that I never even heard of, which is something this aficionado finds hard to believe; that I never heard of it I mean. Please continue with fantastic, almost unknown people and events of jazz history that have probably been forgotten.
Enjoy the music.
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Fascinating story. The clip gives the impression she was in Denmark when the Germans invaded and was arrested and put in a concentration camp. Others accounts say she was arrested by the Danes and kept in a Danish Prison. The facts: She was arrested in 1941 while on tour in Denmark. Denmark had been under German contrrol since around May of 1940. Along with France and all the Low Countries. That means, if she was touring in Europe, in 1941, she was touring in German occupied Europe. When Hitler Declared war on the US on the 11th of Dec 1941, she immediately became an enemy alien. Was later exchanged in 1942 as part of a prisoner exchange. There is that 'agenda' thingy again. Louis Armstrong always called her the world's second best Trumpet player! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6e7ye-fiJACheers |
A professional jazz musician who lived with me for one entire summer, never practiced during that summer. He had been playing keyboards since he was a child in church, and his mother was an organist. Playing three gigs a week was practice enough, according to me. I didn't have an organ or piano, so he couldn't practice. I have his records, and he played better that summer than during any time in his life. Unfortunately, that wasn't recorded, and it was much different than any of the records I have. Since "Bird" practiced I'm sure jazz musicians practice, his case was unique.
Back on the track; Cuba's music is like a Cuban history book if you know how to read it. Even Ricky Ricardo, a fictional character on "I love Lucy", is part of the US, and Cuba's history, if you know how to read it. Cuba's present music is an unfolding event that's a reflection of "The new Cuba", which is partially why I'm so interested in this "new music".
As everyone knows by now, although I'm a fossil who likes fossil music, this doesn't stop me from enjoying and appreciating new music, especially that from Cuba. I'm also enjoying these discussions.
Enjoy the music.
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A professional jazz musician who lived with me for one entire summer, never practiced during that summer. He had been playing keyboards since he was a child in church, and his mother was an organist. Playing three gigs a week was practice enough, according to me. I didn't have an organ or piano, so he couldn't practice. I have his records, and he played better that summer than during any time in his life. Unfortunately, that wasn't recorded, and it was much different than any of the records I have. Since "Bird" practiced I'm sure jazz musicians practice, his case was unique.
Back on the track; Cuba's music is like a Cuban history book if you know how to read it. Even Ricky Ricardo, a fictional character on "I love Lucy", is part of the US, and Cuba's history, if you know how to read it. Cuba's present music is an unfolding event that's a reflection of "The new Cuba", which is partially why I'm so interested in this "new music".
As everyone knows by now, although I'm a fossil who likes fossil music, this doesn't stop me from enjoying and appreciating new music, especially that from Cuba. I'm also enjoying these discussions.
Enjoy the music.
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Thanks for the reply.
****This goes back to an early discussion on this thread during which the mistaken idea was posed that jazz musicians don't practice and don't study the N&B's*****
Not by this person.
Cheers |
****What is the correct custom for applause at a Jazz performance? Do players expect applause after their solos? ****
Always nice to get applause after a solo. Expected? If the solo is good, sure; but a knowledgable audience knows to not "step on the following solo", so the applause may be brief or absent. The player knows that and would not mind if the applause for his solo is brief or absent in that case. Also, it's a drag when some in the audience can't follow the form of the tune during a solo and applaud before the chorus is over, thinking that the solo is over when it's really just a pause in the action. |
In 1959, at the height of his career, Sonny took three years off performing and recording to (are you ready for this?) .......practice the saxophone because he felt he had a lot more to learn. This goes back to an early discussion on this thread during which the mistaken idea was posed that jazz musicians don't practice and don't study the N&B's. The image of Sonny practicing on the Williamsburg Bridge (where he went daily for hours and connects Manhattan and Brooklyn) is established in jazz lore. At age 83, Sonny still practices 3 hours every day. |
Acman3:
Two excellent clips. Awesome sax solo. What is the correct custom for applause at a Jazz performance? Do players expect applause after their solos?
I have Abdullah Ibrahim's latest CD, 'Mukashi' on my to buy list. I have always liked him. From back in his 'Dollar Brand' days.
Can anyone speak about Sonny Rollin's 'artistic impasse' of 1959-62? It is mentioned is a review of his 'The Contemporary Leader' CD in the lastest BBC Music magazine. Any details?
Cheers |
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Just got around to listening to the Irakere Frogman. I think I had a flashback with the electric piano. I enjoyed the playing a lot.
I'm glad they all made it out of Cuba, so we could enjoy their playing. Glad you made it too. |
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****An interesting point is that while it may be called communism, in truth, it's nothing but a dictatorship**** Interesting indeed; a very important distinction and absolutely correct. The term "Communism" sometimes conjures up, in the minds of those without first hand experience or deep knowledge of it, very romanticized notions of what it is really like. The injustice and brutality of it hides behind the theoretical idea of what it can be or is supposed to be; something that it never turns out to be, if history is any indication. How both ironic and fitting, in the context of this thread, to be discussing Cuban music and politics when jazz was (and is still to a degree) outlawed in Cuba. One of the greatest Cuban bands in recent times, "Iraquere", came to be as a facade supported by the Cuban government to show the world that it did not, in fact, suppress artistic expression. The government "allowed" jazz to be played; but, only a little. Some of its members (Paquito D'Rivera, Chucho Valdez, Arturo Sandoval) left the group or defected to the US because they wanted to play more jazz, but were not allowed. Here are a young Paquito, Arturo and Chucho while still in the band: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X1TvtB0GoQ0 |
BTW, On Cuba, Africa, Slavery and Indians in the Movies, I have declared victory. So we can all move on.
Cheersd |
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I agree that lifting the embargo would have a minimal effect for the majority of the Cuban population. I was fortunate to have lived with a very lovely Cuban lady for over 6 years, she came over during the Mariel boatlift (a marielita!). During that time her family embraced me and I learned quite a bit from the Cuban perspective. An interesting point is that while it may be called communism, in truth, it's nothing but a dictatorship. While Fidel has remarkably lived longer than most, Raul, his brother and successor also seems to be in for the long haul. The economic landscape has irretrievably changed for Cuba. When Castro took over, the country was on the brink of becoming a major player with major U.S. companies setting up shop there and it's ports being considered as a major gateway to Central & South America. Castro changed all that, and now I doubt the companies would move back there and the import/export business has found a new outlet in S. Fla. Add to this the fact that there's at least one, maybe two generations of Cubans who have been born under Castro's rule, they know of no other system! If the average Cuban wasn't willing to fight for change before, they're even less prone to do so now. The war crimes committed under Castro's rule, from the pillaging of the nations wealth to the human rights atrocities, the likes of which remain largely unknown to most Americans, warrant nothing less than the hangman's noose for the Castro brothers! Whew! Bet you guys'll be glad to get back to some Jazz talk!;) |
O-10, I agree with much of what you wrote about Cuba; although, in at least one case, for possibly different reasons.
After many years of being a supporter of the embargo I came to support to support the lifting of the embargo several years ago; here's why: The idea that the average Cuban would benefit greatly from the lifting of the embargo is partly a myth. There is no question that there would be some benefit to the average Cuban; but; it is, in fact and as is usually the case in Communist countries, the elite that see the real benefit. Look at the present situation where Cuba has trade relationships with much of the world (except the US) and Cubans still have an incredibly low standard of living. They experience a great deal of hardship, not to mention political oppression. Even medical care is, in spite of the hype, very limited; but, very limited for everyone, unless you have the money (elite). The reason that I came to support the lifting of the embargo is that the move would take away one of the last (possibly the last) excuse that the regime has for why that system does not work; IOW, it would no longer be the US's fault.
There is no question that change will come to Cuba. However, we have been waiting for a change for more years than anyone imagined. Sadly there are many people in power there with a vested interest in the status quo, and a system in place that will make change very difficult and probably not a reality for many years to come. |
Rok, you completed missed the thrust of what I was saying re the influence of the native music on the "Hollywoodization" of it on soundtracks. Also, interesting that you suggest we "do the math" since math is an important element in the building blocks of any music and is so at a level that goes to the key point you missed. What distinguishes most a native music from a commercialized (Hollywood) version is not wether the music is played on native instruments vs Western orchestral instruments; instead, it is WHAT is played by any of those instruments. In the example I gave it is the use of (among other things) minor pentatonic scales like the Native Americans used. THAT is what gives the music it's unique flavor kore than anything; that's the influence. Similar relationship in the case of jazz. Anyway.... |
Rok, in order to understand my specific comments in regard to Africa, the berimbau, and capoeria, we have to focus on the history of "Bahia"; but first, I would like to respond to some of Frogman's comments that are related.
There is no doubt that many different kinds of rhythms, and drumming that existed in Africa, no longer exist there, but can be found in other places. How is this possible?
Before slavery, Africans were living all over the continent in villages, if they lived far away from powerful countries and tribes, they lived in peace; but when slavery put a price on African heads, powerful countries, and tribes captured and sold them. Different villages had different drumming and rhythms, they were exported west, first to Cuba, which was "the board of trade" for slaves, and then to wherever their final destination was to be. Things that were unique to many villages, no longer exist on the continent of Africa, but they can be found where those slaves final destination was to be.
For my specific comments, we have to focus on the history of "Bahia". It was a center of sugar cultivation; integral to this was the importation of a vast number of slaves; more than 37% of all slaves taken from Africa were sent to Brazil, and processed in Bahia, and that's another reason for the unique rhythms that can be found in Bahia, but not in Africa. I don't mean for this to be a diversion, our focus is still on Cuban music.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
*****In regard to Cuba, I was sitting on my duffel bag awaiting orders to deploy to Florida during the Cuban missile crisis,****
I was learning how 'protect' myself from a nuclear bomb by hiding under my desk at school.:) if I had known you were on duty, I would have felt much better!:)
Cheers |
O-10:
Your 'rant' on Cuba. Remember the line from the Dylan song: "You don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing". I think Raul understands this. I just hope some smart people in Cuba are preparing for the coming change.
Cheers |
In the so-called African dispora, the relationship with African culture and the connection to Africa varies by country. Much more Afro-centric in Brazil. Less so in the caribbean. Most of that, is 'contrived'.
In the US, the African connection does not exist. Some contrived attempts were made during the 60's to 'create' a connection, mainly as a reaction to racism in the US. Also as a show of solidarity during the civil rights movement.
Growing your hair long and wearing a dashiki does not an African make.
I could write a thousand pages, but you guys are smart, you do the math as pertains to the music part. If you have any knowledge of the slave trade in the Americas, you can figure this out.
I stand by all my comments.
The 'Indian' recording? I assume that was a joke. Sounded just a wee bit too polished. Besides you only saw / heard that sort of thing within the village. I was speaking of certain portions of the soundtrack. No chanting, just a full-fledged Western orch playing.
Cheers |
Yours is certainly a provocative stance; and, worthy of consideration. Here's the problem for me, and many others: The African influence in Caribbean music (since we are focusing on Cuban music right now I will put the subject of jazz aside) is there to be heard; it couldn't be more obvious. Did you listen to the clip I just submitted of Liberian drumming? The similarity to rumba and salsa could not be more obvious. I agree that when it comes to race everyone has an agenda; including, in some cases, a purported lack of agenda. The purported lack of agenda becomes even more relevant when there is a natural resistance to analyze the subject matter; in this case, music. It's that pesky N&B thing again; no matter how hard we try, we can't get away from it if we are going to do anything more than listen to and enjoy music without commentary trying to be be factual.
****The best percussion I have ever heard comes from Cuba and other latin American countries.****
No one is disputing that. The point is that we are talking about INFLUENCES; the African influence. You are correct in that it's ludicrous to say "Cuban music came from Africa"; it's also ludicrous to say that "Cuban music" would sound anything like it does today had there been no African influence.
****Did Real Indians really play that music in their villages?****
Of course they did. Well documented and lots of sources to read about it. No disrespect intended, but do you, at least, read the available literature on this stuff? There is no question that Hollywood and other commercial powers often inflate and distort what we are talking about; but that doesn't change the reality of the influence factor. I find it hard to believe that you have never heard anything like this, but check this out and tell me that it is not plausible, and likely, that the silly "Indian" themes that we hear in the old Westerns were greatly INFLUENCED by native music like this (notice the use of the minor pentatonic scale; THAT is what gives the music it's melodic character and it's "Hollywood" sound)
[URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yec542aOIzM[URL]
Cheers. |
Re: rok2id's comments about African influence in Jazz. 1st, I got a good laugh from them. Than I'm like; "do I answer? Nah, don't go there". Talk about selective, revisionist logic! But, whatever floats his boat, there's no use trying to dialog with someone who....nah, I'm not gonna go there. You guys have a good day!;) |
I think Olatunji started all this back is the hippy 60's.
Cheers |
Two pieces of good advice:
1. Never believe anything written / spoken by white people, about black people, and their history and culture.
2. Never believe anything written / spoken by black people, about black people, and their history and culture.
And no, I did not make a typo in #2.
When its come to race, everyone has an agenda. The central theme being what I call "feel good history". Every other group has an "Old Country", so black folks want one also.
Every CD I own by Weston has some so-called African theme, if nothing but the clothes he wears on the cover. But I never hear any African in the music. He is just trying to create history out of thin air.
Even Ellington went around the Third world trying to find the source of certain music, and found it all to be much ado about nothing. He cut his tour short and came home.
Africans take their cue from, and are influenced, by AMERICAN / WESTERN musicians, not the other way around. If Blues, Jazz etc... was from Africa, it would still be there.
The African contribution to music centers around the Human Voice. In that area, they are unmatched! They have a sound that no one else can duplicate.
Some of this African stuff is sort of like 'Indian" music we used to hear in the western cowboy movies. When the soundtrack played 'Indian' music we knew they were coming.
Did Real Indians really play that music in their villages? Or were we just conditioned to associate it with Indians. Same goes for oriental and Latino locations. The music told us the location. Was it legit, or Hollywood? Same with "African" music. Esp the Drum nonsense.
The best percussion I have ever heard comes from Cuba and other latin American countries.
Just one Frenchman's Opinion.
Cheers |
****They don't exist there now, because odds are,they never did. Music in the West created and played by people of African decent, does not mean the orgin is African. Just like in the U.S. People are forever trying to connect the Blues, Jazz and Gospel with Africa. There is no connection. It's all indigenous to the US.**** Rok, if what you say is true then just about every authority on the subject, historian or musicologist, is incorrect; that's quite a claim. Are you kidding me?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VT2J1Ot9N5cWho do we believe? Rok; or jazz master Randy Weston?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S3L-lG_qmo8 |
*****Brazil is really a very fascinating country in regard to African rhythms. I try to get to the source of these rhythms in Africa, but they no longer exist on the continent*****8
They don't exist there now, because odds are,they never did. Music in the West created and played by people of African decent, does not mean the orgin is African. Just like in the U.S. People are forever trying to connect the Blues, Jazz and Gospel with Africa. There is no connection. It's all indigenous to the US.
Interesting clip. O-10, you really have eclectic taste in music!!
Cheers |
I've done everything possible, except chain myself to a post, in order to stay off my political soapbox, but no longer can I restrain myself.
In regard to Cuba, I was sitting on my duffel bag awaiting orders to deploy to Florida during the Cuban missile crisis, consequently, I know more about it than most people; but it's way past time to drop that hatchet, and a sack of other hatchets in order to resume normal relations with Cuba. That's affecting all of the poor people of Cuba, as well as the poor people here. Everybody should be tired of silly politics that's only benefiting the "very wealthy", and harming even the upper middle class because they depend on the lower middle class when they're in business, or need to sell something.
Thank you for enduring my rant.
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That's not what I heard!
Oh..."fardeau"...; sorry. :-) |
mon fardeau est grand!!
Cheers |
Thank you Chazro, I'll look into all of your recommendations.
Enjoy the music.
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My posts came in out of sequence, enjoy, but disregard Brazil, stay on Cuba.
Thank you.
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Great post, Chazro. Thanks! |
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I don't necessarily disagree with you; but, remember O-10 said "new Cuban music". If that is the style that you prefer, there are better examples (the singing, for starters, is pretty weak on the Bauza clip); more to come. For now, here is another example of new Cuban music; this from one of the most interesting and accomplished young Cuban musicians, a recent arrival to the US: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifrobjkrg3cThis one's for Acman3. Interesting performance in that like most traditional Cuban music the repetitive piano "montuno" is the "glue" that keeps the implied pulse together. In Cuban music the beat, as strong as it is, is often implied. IOW, there is often nothing playing on the actual beat; it is felt strongly, but the rhythm instruments play around the beat in syncopation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kUQv_nxDmuoTo understand just how deep the level of rhythmic command in this is, is to understand the core of Cuban music. It may not seem like much, but this is incredible: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YXpxsXC4Tdw |
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Nice to see a request for modern Cuban Latin Jazz recs! There so much new, exciting music being created by my Cuban brethren I could easily make a long list but I'll just rattle off a few:
Elio Villafranca & the Jazz Syncopaters - The Caribbean Tinge - Recorded live at Dizzy's (Lincoln Center).
Manuel Valera & the New Cuban Express - Expectativas - The band was nominated for best Latin Jazz album 2013 Grammy's.
Pedrito Martinez Group - The band, led by white-hot first call percussionist Martinez (the man has played on so many records by others!). Their premier album is produced by Steve Gadd, smokin'!
Maestro Paquito D'Rivera, his discography is in itself a primer on Latin Jazz styles, has just released - Jazz Meets the Classics - another live recording from Dizzy's. A terrific record.
Lastly, I'll most enthusiastically recommend Alex Garcia's Afromantra - This Side Of Mestizaje - this is a great Jazz record, certain to be on most critics best of the year lists!
I'd have posted videos but I'm not at my computer, there's tons available on these 5 artists. Just as Jazz is a small word for an immense universe of music, Latin Jazz is a small term for an immense body of work. Made even more so when you factor in the different countries like Spain, Brazil, Columbia, etc.that all have thriving Jazz scenes happening. To the uninitiated, it's just a conga playing behind someone doing standards, but it goes so much further than that! |
O-10, Afro Cuban All Stars is a great place to start; I will let you take the lead with that. Their great sound is, overall, more traditional than this band, NG La Banda, who were responsible for literally creating "timba", the hottest musical style in Cuba right now being a mix of the sounds of traditional, salsa, rumba, American R&B and even hip-hop. They were formed by ex-members of the very influential band Iraquere. Smoking hot rhythm section (their drummer is incredible) and very interesting and prominent horn section writing. (It should be noted that "salsa" is really not a native Cuban creation, but a style created by the ex-patriate Cuban community in the US along with the Puerto Rican and Dominican communities, with traditional Cuban music and dance forms as the main ingredient): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ditQMDiW8gw |
Brazil is really a very fascinating country in regard to African rhythms. I try to get to the source of these rhythms in Africa, but they no longer exist on the continent they came from, they only exist in Brazil; an example of that is the "Capoeira" rhythms in Brazil, it's a Brazilian martial art that combines elements of dance, acrobatics and music, and is sometimes referred to as a game. Here's Capoeira: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8xxgFpK-NMWhat I like best about Capoeira music is the Berimbau, here's Baden Powel with Berimbau: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n1R86mC6aAHere we have "Virginia Rodrigues" accompanied by berimbau, her voice even sounds like the instrument, but with a profound sadness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx2E5F_VYkAEnjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Benny Carter & Orch -- FURTHER DEFINITIONS On Saxophone, we have Benny Carter, Coleman Hawkins, Charles Rouse and the ever present Phil Woods. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSsOPdJBRPoI don't recall Phil woods being on my CDs when I purchased them. Now he's on them all! Really a great CD. Cheers |
Roland Kirk was one of the most unusual, inventive and creative musicians ever; he drew inspiration from old music and musicians to make new music, as well as play instruments I've never heard of, and play three or more at the same time.
"The Delta Rhythm Boys and the foxes by a landslide". Who said life was fair?
Anita O'Day is the jazziest jazz singer ever; she sang a song I've never liked, but when she sang it, it knocked me dead. The lady got style; the way she walks, talks, everything about about her says she is one jazzy lady, did you dig the way she scatted on "Tea For Two"?
"Afro Cuban All Stars", I'll get back to you on that one.
Frogman, could you lead us into new Cuban music and musicians?
Enjoy the music.
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I completely understand. I'm not exactly constantly running for my Dolphy records when I can listen to so many others. But, man, that solo in that Mingus clip is so out and bizarre that I can't help but love it; or his solo on Nelson's "Blues And The Abstract Truth". What would life be without Rocky Mountain oysters? :-) |
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*****Like a strange new cuisine; strange flavors and too hot, but after a few bites you understand and appreciate it:*****
I have been trying since the 60's. I bought a lot of his music thinking I would grow into it. It does not sound near as strange as it used to sound. A guy once told me it was great music to play while reading 'Naked Lunch'. :)
I'll get there. To my ear, His 'At the Five Spot' is more assessible.
Cheers |
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