Frogman, My favorite composers are Bach, Mozart, Schubert and Brahms.
IMO. and it is essentially a mystical one , is that
Bach and Mozart, while not egoists, did have one.
Schubert was the very soul of humility , God was able to use him as a direct instrument. Perhaps only Bruckner rivals Schubert in that regard.
Bach and Mozart were infused by him.
Brahms agrees with me. |
If only I could do it all over again, I would be a Tangoing fool; that has got to be the most sensual, romantic dance ever invented, it speaks of love; other "sexy" dances don't even compare, and I like the music.
Enjoy the music.
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Schubert, I completely agree about Schubert; no other explanation for possessing a gift such as his was. Same can be said of Mozart and there is no dispute about that. It's difficult to understand what goes on in mind of such incredible ability. I suspect that his comment meant that as prodigious and accelerated as his output was, so was his ability to work at and hone his craft. |
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How very beautiful Orpheus 10.
Reminds me of partner dancing in the USA before the plague of rock and individual exhibitionism struck.
Not that the music was ever that good or dancing that skilled.
Save, Fred A. of course, he did what he did better than anyone I ever saw do what they do. |
Ok, he wrote it in his head and then wrote it out.
I would not believe any human who said "nobody" in any context .
One about there can be no dispute is Schubert.
There are testament after testament of him leaving the room
and coming back 10 minutes later with a Masterwork Lieder in hand.If Beethoven had died at the same age we would have
his 1st Sympohony. Schubert did 9 and trios, quartets, quintets,sonatas and Masses as fine as any written.
Not to mention the heart of him, 700 + lieder .
The best teacher in Vienna at the time said of the 9 year old Schubert , every thing I teach him he already knows, I learn more from him than he from me. "God is his teacher" .
Schubert did say it just came to him,my only point is there are a dozen or so outliers in human history for whom there is no explanation save divine intervention. |
****Yes, Mozart was unbelievably talented; but he worked damn hard at his craft, and THAT is why his music is so great****
"People err who think my art comes easily to me. I assure you, dear friend, nobody has devoted so much time and thought to compositions as I. There is not a famous master whose music I have not industriously studied through many times." - WA Mozart |
I agree with you totally Learsfool and have said so many times. I referred to Mozart only. Yes, "Amadeus" was a wretched movie but I read Mozart's comment many times in both English and German long before that.
Look at a uhr Mozart score in Salzburg, there are no corrections on great scores that were written in 15 minutes.
A long career is a choice you make but not the only choice available. |
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Frogman has written another excellent post!
@Schubert - I'm pretty sure that Mozart never actually said that. That line comes from the play/film Amadeus, and in my opinion that attitude (promoted by the character of Salieri, mainly) is one of the worst things in it (I love the film, despite it's major historical inaccuracies, and the soundtrack is great). Yes, Mozart was unbelievably talented; but he worked damn hard at his craft, and THAT is why his music is so great. There are SO many talented music students that get by for a while on their natural talent, but once they figure out how hard they really have to work to actually have a career, they fall by the wayside. No matter how much talent you may have, you still have to put in the work if you want to be truly great, and a VERY great deal of that work is very mundane indeed, as Frogman pointed out. And it is daily work, and continues throughout your entire career. Some people don't like athletic analogies to music, but they are very apropos here - just like an athlete must do their daily exercises and stretches, etc., the musician must do the same. And we work with much weaker muscle groups (especially the wind players like Frogman and myself) that have to last for much longer careers. |
Good story before I forget{again}.
Years ago I saw the talented country banjo and guitar player, Roy Clark, best known as the host on the long-running TV show "Hee-Haw" and member of the County Hall Of Fame appear on a late-night show, I disremember which.
Roy had had a drink or seven and it showed, the host brought
up that Roy trained as a Classical and Jazz guitarist and asked Roy why he was now a country player.
Roy said, " because it pays better and you have to be real good to play off-tune all the time'. |
Orpheus10, the Ike Quebec LP i scored at Goodwill is "With A Song IN My Heart", Blue Note Classics LT-1052 , a 1962 Rudy Van Gelder production.
It must have been near his last, if not his last, recording.
It is the best Jazz LP I have ever heard, both in sound and performance. My copy appears unused, in any event not a tick or pop on it !
I paid $1.50 for it, it would have been a bargain at 50 bucks. |
Frog," upon reflection" ,my answer is most of us do not become anywhere near as good as we can be so we make others better than they are as a projective compensation.
If you don't look death square in the face without blinking on a daily basis you will conserve your energy as if you will need it for your 150th birthday bash.
There is no day but this day, no minute but this minute. |
WEll said Frogman, when all is said and done, the only way you can make somebody "big" is to make yourself small.
As Mozart said, the music comes from God, I just write it dowm . |
****Why this untruth is so widespread here despite being contradicted by every actual musician on this board is a continuing mystery to me, and a fascinating one. ****
A couple of related untruths are the idea that musicians (any genre) don't listen to recorded music and that most audiophiles don't really care about music; nothing could be further from the truth. Musicians listen to a lot of recorded music; and, while some audiophiles (equipment geeks) are, in fact, clueless about music, most that I have known are music lovers.
One of the reasons that these ideas get promulgated is, ironically, the emotional power of the very music they love which sometimes keeps many avid listeners from being able to see the middle ground (the gray) of so many of these issues. It can cause a tendency to want things to be entirely one way or the other; to make things the "best" or the "worst"; to become very polarized and overreact when a criticism is expressed by someone about a particular favorite recording. The KOB/SE debate was a perfect example of this. Two of the acknowledged greatest jazz recordings; yet, so much arguing about which was "better" when the dissenting voice (me) made it very clear from the start that both were great, but only in one or two specific areas was one considered somewhat better than the other while never declaring one as superior overall. Unfortunately, when hearing one listener say that X drummer sounds a little sloppy compared to Y drummer, instead of listening to the two examples and trying to hear what is being said, the focus becomes: "oh, he thinks X drummer is no good" and the fact that there are musically important stylistic differences between the two is missed.
The strong emotional response that music can have in a listener causes a tendency to "see" artists as dealing only with the emotional realm and to resist the idea that essential elements for artists to be able to reach that emotional realm and express their artistic vision are things that listeners sometimes perceive as very mundane and unemotional: study, practice or listening to recordings; things that can be misconstrued as not being in keeping with the mistaken idea that creativity is only the result of the calling of the artist's "muse". Most listeners would be amazed and their heads would spin at how much "technical" speak goes on in musicians' conversations (yes, even jazz musicians), wether it be about equipment, practice techniques, recordings that they are studying and analyzing, as well as musical issues at a level of subtlety that may seem incomprehensible. Music lovers tend to want their favorite artists to be "above the fray" of the mundane; truth is, they are people too. |
Learsfool, I'm listening to "The Film Music of Bronislaw Kaper", played by the composer, in celebration of what I learned from you. Two of my favorite tunes by him are; "Invitation" and "Green Dolphin Street". While Miles with Bill Evans is my favorite version of "On Green Dolphin Street", there are so many versions of "Invitation" I like, that I would prefer you choose your favorite version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nic4lb02ANwEnjoy the music. |
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Hi O-10 - my point is that all professional musicians must have a variety of equipment to listen to music on quite early in life (while students). A healthy percentage will have at least good mid-fi equipment, figuring since they have to have something, might as well get something at least decent. I had most of the mid-fi system I mentioned before I graduated college (and how I wish I had bought many more records back then, sigh). Again, this percentage would be quite a bit higher than in any other profession (quite often, the main concern of music students from my generation and earlier and long after, when choosing a living space, was where were the speakers going to go - some settled for bookshelves, or just used headphones, but a great many of us had to have floorstanders). And later on, another healthy percentage of those musicians who can afford it will also go on to purchase high end equipment, at a higher rate than non-musicians. A musician's priorities in choosing what equipment they use are often quite different from most "audiophiles," but a large number of them, no matter what kind of music they play, love to have great sounding systems to listen to when they are not working. There is a perception here on this board in particular that musicians do not care about or understand high end audio - not only is this simply not true, it really doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Why this untruth is so widespread here despite being contradicted by every actual musician on this board is a continuing mystery to me, and a fascinating one. I have several different theories, but this is not the place for them. You asked what I was talking about - I have answered. Now let's get back to the jazz. As I said, this is the best thread on any audio forum on the web - I have learned a great deal and been exposed to many players I had not heard before. You are to be commended for starting it, sir! |
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Ike Quebec died January 16, 1963; "Heavy Soul", my favorite album by Ike was recorded November 26, 1961, although it was not released until 62. I've forgotten my source, but they had gotten the news that Ike had lung cancer when they recorded this; listen at how sad, but beautiful, Freddy Roach's organ sounds on almost all the cuts. Can you imagine them recording this album with the knowledge Ike wouldn't be with them much longer. It's impossible for something like that to not come through in the music; listen for it on your copy.
I purchased the album at the end of the summer in 62, I know this because I recall "Heavy Soul" coming on like a cool breeze at the end of a hot summer day. This was an album I played repeatedly for a long time; especially during the winter of 63.
Enjoy the music.
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Schubert, not too long ago, there were no LP's or CD's by Ike available. I got a store owner to make a tape from his LP. After that, no CD's were available, I had to pay $35. for an LP, when I wasn't even into vinyl. As you can tell, I'm 100% into Ike Quebec; I just wanted you to know how the music world goes in circles.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I grew up on a farm 5 miles from Quebec border, I know how to pronounce it -LOL.
I thought he was great on slow stuff myself even knowing as little as I do about jazz.
He must have been a hell of a musician to arrange on Blue Note ! |
Schubert, Quebec ("qeeubek") sounds good indeed! Big, breathy tone and sounds fabulous on ballads; I really like his style. A little known factoid about him is that he was an uncredited arranger on a lot of Blue Note sessions (that he didn't play on). |
That painting, plus the music, make a statement too powerful for words alone; I certainly can't find them.
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Stanley Turrentine "I Told Jesus":
Great tune, Even greater painting of the church women. I think I will have to find this one for my collection.
The Good Lord and Jazz, a match made in heaven.
Cheers |
**** him and his aunt Corrine are playing games with me.****
You better stop messin' with that woman. I suggest you sprinkle some Snake Dust all on your floor, and get you a black candle, and a Catfish fin. Then you might stand a chance. But if you find Dr John sitting on your front porch, it's toooo late.
Remember, Miles woke up one day, and found himself dressed like Sinbad The Sailor. Taught him a lesson. Or as they say down home, "That'll learn ya"!
Cheers |
Is that 'Prez' on the Basie clip?
Cheers |
Today's Listen: This has been a good Jazz week for me. All my recent purchases have been killer, and I have 'discovered' two new artist. Gregory Porter and Cecile Salvant. Both seem to be a breath of fresh air in the classic and traditional Jazz genre. Julia Fischer -- BRUCH & DVORAK This clip is from the Proms, but the CD has her playing the same Music with the same Orchestra, but not in front of a live audience. I love it! Why? We'll let The Frogman tell us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bCksc4TgUMCount Basie -- ATOMIC SWING The clip is not the CD. Could not find one. But it is Basie!! The CD is very good, but does not swing as hard as this clip. The sound quality is EXCELLENT. You don't often find big band music recorded this well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLbrZAko7ECheers |
Cool to see some love for Stanley T. A CTI record was the 1st Jazz record I ever bought; California Concert. It was the 1st time I'd ever heard Freddie Hubbard, George Benson, Stanley T., Hubert Laws, Ron Carter, Airto, & Hank Crawford. I was already into Billy Cobham (was one of the main reason I bought it!). The primary complaint about the CTI catalog was that the majority of the releases were over-produced, often featuring full orchestras + strings. I got that but still very much enjoyed most of their catalog. California Concert is just the band, no embellishments, and is absolutely kills! Although I've rarely seen it mentioned anywhere, I think it's one of the great Jazz records! |
Rok, I was just looking at some old DVD.s of Miami Vice, and who should I see but "Miles" as Ivory Jones, a pimp. I just can not get away from that guy; him and his aunt Corrine are playing games with me.
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Frog, I just found an Ike Quebec record at Goodwill.
He sounds pretty good to me. |
Somebody done hit the sweetest sweet spot in jazz "Mr. T"; he's made more sweet sounding notes than any other jazz musician, and I ain't gonna take it back. His entire discography is boss, and what I don't got, I'm going to get. Turrentine received his only formal musical training during his military stint in the mid-'50s. In 1959, he jumped from the frying pan into the fire when he left the military and went straight into the band of the great drummer Max Roach. He married the organist Shirley Scott in 1960 and the two frequently played and recorded together. In the 1960s, he started working with organist Jimmy Smith, and made many soul jazz recordings both with Smith and as a leader. In the 1970s, after his professional split and divorce from Scott, Turrentine turned to jazz fusion and signed for Creed Taylor's CTI label. His first album for CTI, Sugar proved one of his biggest successes and a seminal recording for the label. He worked with Freddie Hubbard, Milt Jackson, George Benson, Bob James, Richard Tee, Idris Muhammad, Ron Carter, Grant Green and Eric Gale, to name a few. He returned to soul jazz in the 1980s and into the 1990s. Turrentine lived in Fort Washington, Maryland from the early 90s until his death. He died of a stroke in New York City on September 12, 2000 and is buried in Pittsburgh's Allegheny Cemetery. Although I like every cut on that album "Salt Song", this has got to be my favorite; it pictures someone who's done everything humanly possible to resolve a difficult situation, now there nothing left to do but "Tell Jesus". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4JP6JRv7k0Enjoy the music. |
Learsfool, "All", of the musicians I stated had good "midfi" stuff, but I thought we were talking "audiofile", and all the everything that goes with that, including, we absolutely must have a good "soundstage", and it took me dedicated years to get that.
What are we talking about?
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman is correct about my intended meaning - when I said musicians, I meant all types of musicians, not just classical. Of course, O-10, there are exceptions to every rule. There are many classical musicians who aren't into great reproduction, too, even though they can hear the difference. As Rok said, we hear what we NEED to hear on a boom box if we have to. But as a percentage, yes, there are many more musicians with better quality playback systems than the averages in other professions. They certainly don't all have five figure systems, it might be good mid-fi stuff, like what I started with after college - a Technics turntable, Harmon Kardon receiver, and Cerwin Vega speakers (and there are a great many audiophiles who would argue that the Technics was not a mid-fi piece, but that's another argument). Back in the day, that system cost me three figures. The average musician is more likely to own such equipment than the average non-musician.
Rok, I can see how my comment you quoted could easily be misinterpreted to be condescending, but I think you know it was not intended that way. I will certainly admit that there is a reason I am a musician and not a writer....not the best choice of words. Frogman is much better at writing clearly than I, that's for sure. |
O-10, let's put is this way:
I have, as LeArsfool reminded us, pointed out that, as a percentage of the population of musicians, there are many more musicians who are audiophiles than there are audiophiles in the general population. Additionally, and you will simply have to take my word for this: the average musician (jazz or otherwise) has infinitely better sound playback equipment than the average non-musician; even the average non-musician who can afford to be an audiophile. |
There's always something to buy! Never heard of this until tonight. Now I have to have the DVD, if it exists. Love Christmas music. I wonder if The Frogman is in this one? Am I the only one that didn't know of Ellington's Nutcracker Suite? Fess up! They seem to alternate between Ellington and Tchaikovsky. I have a CD titled 'Ellintgon's Suites', but there is no Nutcracker. Check out the introduction clip to this performance. Could be the Frogman speaking! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56axsTAmQXM&index=10&list=PLC4A8C3838EF48C81Cheers |
When CTI came on the scene, there were some "purists" that accused the artists on the CTI catalog of "selling out"; some of the jazz was a little "lite", but some was really funky and really good. For me, Stanley Turrentine was probably the only (well, Freddie Hubbard also) whose CTI releases were consistently great; even the "lighter" ones. Another fave; along with "Sugar" (Eric Gale kills): https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL69bb8FmwkGCFcej-Mxd-nQXPiwrI3OBg&v=JTBRiyB4KpU |
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Frogman, since I'm an "Audiophile", they don't have to prove anything to me in regard to the sound, but I bet neither Casandra Wilson, or Gregory Porter would consider themselves audiophiles. All I'm saying is the lifestyle of musicians I've known is more like the people in Rok's clip of Casandra Wilson. While anyone can find specific examples of almost anything, we're talking about in general.
Now I don't know anything about Casandra Wilson, other than the fact that she can probably afford to be an audiophile. Since we're talking about musicians in general who can afford to be audiophiles, let's lay it all on the line for "Casandra Wilson". If she's an audiophile, me and Rok will concede, if not you and Leersfool will concede that musicians are less likely, than more likely to be audiophiles; go to work.
Enjoy the music.
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http://jazztimes.com/articles/17407-the-making-of-a-jazz-audiophileAlong with the mentioned: Keith Jarret Billy Drummond Steve Khun Carla Bley and others, I would like to add: Bob Mintzer Mike Migliore Chick Corea Christian McBride Ted Nash Jim Pugh Gary Smulyan Lawrence Feldman Larry Carlton Fred Hersch Randy Brecker I could go on, but I think I made my point. |
Learsfool, thanks for chiming in re the musician/ audiophile. You are, of course, correct. |
Rok, "the major problem" is one of personality. Here we at the same tiresome place again where you fail to see the hypocracy in your attitude and contradictions and lack of clarity in what you write. You often disagree and do so in an abrasive and condescending manner; yet, when "some people" disagree with you it becomes "nitpicking", you "meant" this or that, or you go to the fall-back position of audiophile bashing which is really sophomoric in its attempt at superiority, says little and begs the question: if you have such disdain for audiophiles, why do you post in an audiophile forum? I am often reminded of issues around child-rearing: they get the most obstinate and scream the loudest with those who they know, deep inside, are correct.
Classic Rok contradiction:
Your recent Bolero example where you accuse me of nitpicking and neglecting to understand that the musically mediocre Bolero that you posted was meant to be appreciated with the visual (the dance). Yet, this is what you wrote a mere few days ago:
****10-01-14: Rok2id
Southern Comfort-- I am always suspicious of music that "requires" visuals to make it seem complete. The wife likes it, but she likes recordings of birds and waves. :)****
I find it a bit humorous that you would think "some people" are looking for validation in a forum like this or consider their word to be "gospel". What was that term you used recently?.....oh yeah, "projection". I am flattered that you are so affected by my occasional disagreement, but all I can do is encourage you to be more secure in your beliefs.
Cheers |
The African Youtubes:
I agree with you. The sound is just too monotonous. Maybe the music is just not sophisticated in structure. Good for maintaining voodoo trances?
Damn. When I typed that, my keyboard stopped working for a moment. :)
On the positive side, she will not have to worry about being accused of sounding like Ella.
Do you realize that Acman3 submitted a post/youtube about Cecile over a year ago!! I was not paying attention. What do you think of Porter?
Cheers |
Rok, although I have Casandra's CD's since the beginning, this is my first time getting acquainted with her; she's infinitely more impressive than ever entered my mind.
Never heard of Gregory Porter, but the boy can "sang". I must say, Casandra is growing old quite gracefully; she's beautiful in many ways, I watched the entire 52:23 of that clip.
Since I've been looking at "Miami Vice", that offshore bank account thing was right on time, I'll have to check it.
Leersfool, when you say "musicians", you mean "Classical" musicians; the one's who can debate a "Basis super arm 9, versus "Vector" versus "Graham" tone arms. John Lee Hooker had 3 identical Adcom systems in his three homes; Max Roach had a most unimpressive system in his apartment over looking Central Park when he was interviewed by "Stereophile". If the musicians I've known were filthy rich, they would not be "Audiophiles"; setting up a brand new, high end analog rig, is too much like playing with electric trains; "When am I going to listen to some music, I'm tired of fiddling with this cartridge and tone arm, somebody call an engineer or Jeeves the butler."
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool:
The major problem is that some people seem to think that every word uttered on this thread has to 'pass muster' with them, and some school house teachings. I beg to disagree. Read the OP's opening statement, which I just re-posted. This thread is about talking about and sharing music we love.
Now, to impart information in a courteous, and helpful way is one thing, and it's appreciated. But to say, I don't know what I'm talking about when I express my preferences and thoughts on certain CDs is just hubris. He is so quick to 'correct' everyone, that he misses a lot of that is being said.
EXAMPLE:
I submitted a post from the BBC proms. "Bolero" with the Spanish dancers. I had never seen it danced to, so I thought it would be interesting to share. (BTW,they also happened to be Stone Foxes.) What did the Frogman say? "That was not a very good Bolero". So he sends a clip of some uptight German Orch playing the 'perfect'(his word) Bolero.
The point was not the orchestra! Not the Bolero! It was the dancing!!! Hell, the orchestra was even blacked out. In the dark. It was the dancers!! He missed it. Didn't get it. He even said the horns were out of tune on the French orchestra's Water/Fire music thingy.
He has the Audiophile mentality that says, always criticize and nit-pick everything said.
You read the forums, you know what I mean. Someone says UP, the audiophile MUST say DOWN. You say Right, they say left. You say Left, then they say right. It's almost like an kneejerk. Read his post of 10-5-14.
No one said musicians don't like or listen to audio. The inference was that they don't waste time with, or believe in all the typical 'audiophile' voodoo / magical / nonsense.
The best example of this I have ever seen, was a photo of the Jazz group, Lambert, Hendricks and Ross, at work, All sitting in folding chairs listening intently to an LP being played on a child's toy record player, sitting on the floor. Something that can be purchased at TOYs R US.
The point is, what a real musician needs to get out of recorded music, does not cost very much.
***** who are willing to engage in serious dialogue with you about the music you love, why you do persist in making these type of statements?*****
That statement is very condescending, but, accurate protrayal of certain attitudes. It is also, at the root of most of the conflict on this thread. If I am WILLING, then you, should ........
*****Or poking fun because they don't have as expensive a system as you? They probably don't have near the income you do, either. *****
I am not sure I understand this statement. For the record, My 'expensive' system consists of a Harman Kardon receiver, and Polk speakers. I can assure you, it's the least expensive system on this entire forum. My income is Social Security. :( You must be talking about that guy with the off shore bank accounts, O-10! :)
Thanks for the post.
Cheers |
O-10 and Rok - I'm sorry, but I have to call you guys out again, if Frogman won't. Your comments on musicians not caring about audio are way out of line, and frankly insulting. As both Frogman and I have stated many times in these forums, there are more musicians who are audiophiles, by percentage, than in any other profession you care to name. O-10, I believe you when you say the guy you live with didn't listen to music when he was off, but I assure you he is an exception. Almost every professional musician listens to more music in their off hours than the typical audiophile does. Granted, much of that is for work and study purposes, but it is very often also for pleasure. When you have such a well respected jazz musician as Frogman (and there are several others in these forums who participate on a fairly regular basis, though some of them don't identify themselves as such), who are willing to engage in serious dialogue with you about the music you love, why you do persist in making these type of statements? Or poking fun because they don't have as expensive a system as you? They probably don't have near the income you do, either. Let's please keep this about the music - this is one of the very best threads that any audiophile forum has ever had. |
O-10: Another relative newcomer. You know much about him? Such as, why does he wear that silly headgear? The clip shows nice street scenes of NYC. Don't think I could live in a place with that many people. And of course, the great Cassandra Wilson. Another Mississippian. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g3kXyKNXsMEnjoy. Cheers |
Which African tubes? This is one of them, but it didn't really matter because the costumes and the dance was more interesting than the music; especially when some of them switched back to the village. Since there are no DVD's, so much for that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0HGdO42nMAHere's another one; after awhile, switching on those on the sidebar, they began to sound alike, that's when I left. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE4RkXO5IfUEnjoy the music. |
