So is no one interested in the topic I proposed?
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gSke2yogcw Way down yonder.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY_e6Sdh6Mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3IL8q8ahWI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFjTz68F-P4 Cheers |
Learsfool: I understand some folks, but I am surprised that you would consider this Wagner thingy anything but silly. Has nothing to do with him being a nice person. Has to do with him being dead 50 years before the Nazis came to power. A few facts: Prior to the war, Germany was considered the most progressive and liberal nation in Europe with respect to "The Jewish Question". They prospered there like no other place. You want balant anti-semtism, try France, Poland and Russia. When the Nazis, before the war, started "mercy-killing" of German people with mental defects, the German church community protested, and they stopped it. Hitler never did anything that he felt would anger the German people. No German soldier was ever punished for refusing to commit murder or any other atrocity. Many refused to go on the massacres by gun fire, and were not sanctioned. However, there was never a lack of willing volunteers. EVERY country that was occupied by Germany, provided SS Divisions to fight with the Germans on the Eastern front. France, Belguim, Holland, Norway, Russia, Croatia,Italy, Romania, Hungary. The European mind set of that time was Communism = Judaism. And the fought to "Save" Europe. The last soldier fighting in Berlin to defend Hitler's bunker, was a Frenchman. He survived the war. By 1944, the SS was only about 50% German. The Germans had local government help, in every country, in rounding up Jews. They could not have done it without this help. The most Obscene picture from WWII. They often did this to save bullets. One would kill baby and mother. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM2.N.SHOOT.WOMEN.JPG Maybe the soldier had just been fired up by a performance of "Die Walkure". What should be the take away from all this? Hitler and Wagner, didn't kill anyone. But still there are 50 million dead! Who did it? EUROPE did it!! Europe committed the Holocaust. And no one there, regrets what happened, to this day!! Cheers |
Schubert, I can't resist one more question - please explain to us how Wagner's music (or anyone else's, for that matter) can possibly be construed as EVIL (aside from the evil of using it torture Jews in the Nazi death camps by blasting it incessantly, but this is NOT the music's evil, nor was it the wildest intentions of the composer for it to be used in such a manner). Who is really making the sophomoric posts here? OK, that was two questions, sorry folks. Adam is right to pull this thread back to jazz. I have a suggestion for Frogman. If you were to suggest several albums to showcase/illustrate the development of jazz improvisation, which would you pick, and why? To clarify, I am not asking for a favorite list, or a top ten list, but a selection of albums for the study of improvisation and how it is done and how it has developed at the highest levels in jazz. Would others also be interested in this as a topic for this thread? |
A heart warming story. There's one thing that there can be no disagreement about and that is the depth of Wynton's love of the music and his huge heart. http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/jazz-greats-converge-hospital-play-happy-birthday-94-yo-maestro/ https://www.facebook.com/wyntonmarsalis/posts/10152832454392976 |
Beck was great on both clips. He always is. I confess, I was more taken with the babes!! There is a lot of talent today, they just need to sing the great songs, regardless of era. Classical players do it everyday. Speaking of Buddy Guy, earlier today, I almost posted him with Roland Kirk, of all people. The sound quality was subpar so I didn't. BTW, Etta James was known to threaten to kick folks' Ass for singing her songs. Esp if they did it as well as she did. Beyonce for example. But Etta is with the Lord now, so the danger has passed. Thanks for the clip. Nice to see Buddy get his due. Cheers |
Jeff Beck is incredible. If you like that, check this out: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw_zQIFAI4U Amazing guitar solo; simple, tasty; and no pick, for that great singing sound. |
I love this song. I remember the original from back in the day. It was nice, but nothing like this. The first time it grabbed me was when I was watching a TV Detective show, and a Female Impersonator was singing this in a gay bar. He nailed it!! Been a favorite of mine since then. This female looks much better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmMjhoyILLg Cheers |
****Incredible album.....**** Yup! The tune "Giant Steps" would literally be a giant step for improvisers on all instruments; an amazing test of a player's ability to make music over an incredibly complex chord progression like never seen before. Even the great Tommy Flanagan struggles with the changes when he solos. He is tentative from the very beginning and one gets the feeling that he is saying "what the f&%k?", and by 3:30 simply gives up and just comps them. Hard to say wether they planned it this way, but Coltrane then takes over again like the phenom he was and finishes what should have been Flanagan's solo. Amazing stuff! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xr0Tfng9SP0 |
Today's Listen: The way she walks on stage tells you what the opera is about! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7dvk-pzzp0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S-j593g4K0&index=2&list=PLVNiahN25ReNYazG-Ddtqaswcc752Zhe6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tiyUt1SNaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYbH4dnjCCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNskXoj3H_U Cheers |
Incredible album Frogman .... I agree. Fantastic body of music ! I'm sure you're aware that, although "Giant Steps" was John Coltrane's debut recording for Atlantic Records as a group leader, he was concurrently performing and recording with Miles Davis. Did you know that within the space of less than three weeks, Coltrane would complete his work with Miles , Cannonball Adderly, Jimmy Cobb, and the rest of the boys on "Kind of Blue," before commencing his efforts on this one. Pretty awesome stuff ! |
Schubert .... I have no idea what you mean by your reply to my post. Anyway ..... getting back to the OP's original query about "must have" jazz albums...... I was four years old by the end of 1959, so I certainly don't remember these albums when they were first released. However, when I got my first "real stereo" in 1981 (Yamaha receiver, B & O Beogram 3404 table, and Mission 717 speakers), my Dad told me it was time to learn about jazz. Sure, he understood my taste in music during my high school and college days of the 1970's, and often paid for my purchases of records by Dylan, the Dead, the Allman Brothers, CSN&Y, Loggins & Messina, the Beatles, the Stones, Deep Purple, Moody Blues, etc., etc. ..... but he said that now that I had a "really good stereo system," I should start listening to jazz. He immediately bought me my first jazz record, an Illinois Jacquet album, and then told me about the "four great records" of 1959. So, it was with records like "Kind of Blue" and "Time Out" that started me on my long love affair with small ensemble acoustic jazz. I just turned 59, and although my system is better than it was in 1981, and my music collection has expanded to almost 2000 records and CD's, I'll never forget the first time the needle hit the groove on the classic jazz albums of 1959. I'm still loving those great tunes by Miles, Brubeck, Mingus and all the boys. Thanks a lot Dad ! |
Forgetting about Wagner and getting back to the original title of this thread "Jazz for Aficionados" ..... How about 1959 ? In one year, four of arguably the most important albums in all of jazz history were released. Dave Brubeck's "Time Out," Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue," Ornate Coleman's "The Shape of Jazz to Come," and Charles Mingus' "Mingus Ah Um." Oh man, what a year !! So come on boys and girls, pull out these records and treat yourselves to some amazing music. Truly, jazz for aficionados. |
Nice post Learsfool. I like to think of music as both an educational and healing force. Personally, I don't think enjoyment of an artists music is equivalent to liking them as a person. But liking them as a person is no doubt a plus. My reaction in this case is to want to listen to more Wagner in probably a futile effort to try to understand the person better through his music, for better or for worse. |
Schubert, I must protest that you go a little too far in your latest posts. Wagner never carried his anti-Semitism nearly so far as Hitler and the Nazis did. And yes, Hitler DID use Wagner's music at both his public rallies, and in the death camps (both well documented), thereby giving Wagner's anti-Semitism an even more horrific, exaggerated spin. Wagner would have been horrified by their death camps. This is of course NOT to justify or excuse or diminish Wagner's terribly racist views, but merely to say they did not go so far as the Nazis - he did not advocate actually killing/exterminating the Jews, even though he wished they didn't exist - those two things are NOT the same; Wagner never killed anyone, and his music certainly hasn't either. Much of the anti-Semitism of Bayreuth over the years came actually from Cosima, after Richard's death, whose views were more extreme than her husband's; if you have read her diaries (which were only published in the 1980s), this is made quite clear. And it was a couple of their grandchildren who were cozy with the Nazis, against the wishes of some of the rest of the family, who were appalled, and distanced themselves, though they did not go public. There is an interesting book on the subject by one of his great grandsons, Siegfried, who has been ostracized from Bayreuth for finally bringing out in public some of the embarrassing Nazi associations of his family - at least as of a couple of years ago he is still an outsider. Unlike his successors, Wagner himself had no problem hiring Jews who were the best musicians, including Franz Strauss, the greatest horn player of his day (and father of the composer Richard Strauss). He premiered quite a few of Wagner's operas, in Munich and at Bayreuth. A Jewish conductor, Hermann Levi, premiered Parsifal at Bayreuth. Wagner did not like the fact these musicians were Jewish, but it did not prevent his artistic judgment from prevailing (despite his earlier views expressed in his bizarre pamphlet about the supposed reasons Jews could never be top rank artists). I won't argue with your statement that it is more important to be a good man than a good artist - but that is not really the issue here. No one is arguing that Wagner was not a horrible person, and no one is trying to justify his racist views. I certainly hope you were not referring to me - I prefer to assume you were not, since I would find that highly offensive, having as I said lost many distant cousins in those Nazi death camps. Again, I believe one must separate the art from the man. And there are a great many Jews and artists who agree - Daniel Barenboim has done much great work uniting young Israeli and Palestinian musicians, in part with the music of Wagner! Controversial, yes. Effective, unquestionably. Music should heal; it should not foster more hatred. Allow me to frame the argument in another way - should the world completely disregard one of its greatest artistic geniuses because he had some appalling personal views? Are you seriously advocating this? Are you not in fact therefore advocating censorship? Where does this line of thought stop? Is this type of reasoning any different from say someone who decides they don't want to hear Tchaikovsky, or Schubert, for that matter, because they liked young teenage boys? Or to hear Bruckner since he was supposedly a necrophiliac? Should we not listen to Gesualdo since he was a murderer? Should we not listen to Miles Davis because he used drugs? We could continue this indefinitely to complete absurdity; but to not listen to Wagner's music because he was racist does not make any more logical sense to me than any of these other examples. |
This is supposed to be a music thread(conversation). Jazz in particular. And since none of you, save Learsfool, have the slightest clue about the subject of which you speak, get back to music or go back to your 'Audiophile' hangouts. Don't you have some wire to discuss?? Perhaps the latest cable lifters? Are you sure you have covered ALL tubes? To clear the air of hate and genocide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-37y9GhAA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSTzSEiZ2c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en6kmiX0SDc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZyCPhVvvM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08CqZaP0EuA Cheers |
ONE problem with you line of thought Learsfool. It is far more important to be a good man than a great artist. Wagner was NOT used by Nazi's ,in fact they toned down his anti-Semitism .You do NOT grasp the extent that Wagner made them possible in Germany. Music is God's gift to man but it is not God. That much is gray, does not make everything relative. No one would die if Wagner's music vanished into the vapor forever. |
Lots of interesting posts here lately, sorry I have not been able to respond sooner! Frogman - clearly, I have not been listening to much Mel Torme. Your comments that he could swing his ass off and scat almost like Ella blew me away - I have never heard him do anything of the sort, and wouldn't have believed him capable of it, based on the little I have heard. Clearly, I am ignorant of much of his work, which I will remedy at some point (I haven't yet listened to your link - I'm actually in the process of figuring out setting up a new computer based audio chain for my digital listening). Frogman's Sinatra comments are dead on for me - very well described. Schubert - Wagner always sets off controversy - I am somewhat of an expert on the subject of Wagner, actually. Mapman is correct when he says Wagner was used for political purposes later by the Nazis, though you are also correct to say that his views are horrid - many people think he just hated the Jews, but he hated pretty much everything that wasn't German. These views are indeed despicable. That said - there has been some interesting discussion here about an artist's personality influencing one's views of his/her work. Another of my favorites, from the literary world, James Joyce, believed very firmly in the total separation of the artist from his work (in this sense we are speaking of, that is). In the case of Wagner in particular (someone who Joyce was artistically heavily influenced by), this is an obvious necessity. I do understand why someone subjected to it in a death camp would never want to hear it again. I had many distant relatives die in more than one of those camps. However, as an artist, one simply cannot ignore Wagner. This is a man who I would (and have, formally) argue influenced music more than any other artist has ever influenced his or her art form. For decades afterwards, composers had very strong artistic reactions to what he did - music after Wagner fundamentally changed forever in many, many ways, splintering off in all kinds of directions, all of them in some way a reaction (positive or negative) to what he had done (and not in the way he himself predicted, either). It is only in the last few decades that this has not been true anymore. I must stop myself here, or I will type an insanely long post. I will conclude this one by imploring you and everyone else to give his art, his music, a chance. If you do not listen to Wagner, you are denying yourself some of the greatest and also some of the most beautiful music ever composed. As abhorrent a human being as he was, he was also undeniably an artist of the foremost rank and genius, matched by very, very few others, in any art form. |
Wagner was apparently controversial at a minimum in this regard based on various interpretations of his words, not based actions. So the case would not seem to be clear. I don't like his music much anyway so not a biggie for me. Many others did much worse. They weren't famous composers though. I can certainly understand how such things might affect ones musical preferences. How many artists are also saints though? I find it uplifting whenever one is able to create great or beautiful music. |
John Wayne might be interpreted as "glorifying war" but I cannot find anything to indicate he was a draft dodger. To the contrary I read he sought entry to the Naval academy and was denied and was not draft eligible when Pearl Harbor happened due to age. Those with financial interest in him at the time might have actually provided some resistance but not Wayne himself. At least that's what I read who knows. Hitler and the Nazis used Wagner's musical legacy for propoganda purposes but I think it is controversial at best whether or not his views were much different from much of the publics during his time. One might easily argue that Wayne's persona and legacy was hijacked perhaps by others with agendas at various times over the years, but not sure I can blame him for that. BEing controversial, I suppose one can easily draw their own conclusions based on life experience. Agree totally with the Torme and Mozart comparison. Making enjoyable music seemed to be most effortless and natural for both. I am not a huge fan of either, nor do I hold any unique grudges against those two. |
Frogman, just so. What I meant was Mozart and Mel both make it sound easy and off the cuff , no sturm und drang, just music that is so beautifully crafted it never occurs to you could be any other way. Every thing I say is a generalization and off the top of my head. What is an open mind at 20 is an empty mind at 80. |
Alexatpos, what you say is so 99% of the time . My refusal to listen to Wagner stems from being a serious student of German history and is shared by not a few Germans.He is the only composer I will not listen too. Only actor I can not bear to watch is John Wayne, he was a draft dodger himself who I know, fact certain, played a large role in the deaths of untold numbers by glorifying war. I'm not the only combat vet he thinks so. There are things that are beyond the pale. |
As with most things of great value, music, the artists and their personalities can be very complicated; how and if that personality is reflected in the performance is equally complicated. With some artists their work is an open window into their personality while with some their work is paradoxically different. Coltrane was a deeply spiritual individual and this was clearly projected in his playing. Louis Armstrong was always jovial as an individual and I can think of no other player that could more easily put a smile on one's face by the way he played. Yet, you have a beautiful player like Stan Getz who was known to be a very difficult and abrasive individual and some would say a jerk; yet, his playing could be so gentle. I think Sinatra was one of those performers whose personality was clearly reflected in their performance. Alexatpos, I also think that a distinction needs to be made between a difficult and unpleasant personality and a troubled one. You are correct, many great artists were/are troubled individuals. Some would say that is the reason they need to perform; as an outlet for their troubles. But a troubled personality is not necessarily an unpleasant one and just as we each react differently to a given performer's musical style, we each react differently to an individual's personality traits. Schubert made what, at first, seemed like a pretty wild comparison: Mel Torme compared to a Mozart concerto; and, earlier, his dislike of Sinatra with a reference to Wagner. They are actually pretty apt comparisons and give me an insight into how he listens to music. Generalizations to be sure, and obvious issues of relative greatness aside, the music of Mozart can be characterized as uplifting, buoyant and lively and generally easy to listen to. I think that Mel Torme's singing style could easily be characterized the same way. Wagner was known to be an extremely controlling individual and perfectionist with a strong sense of self-importance; Sinatra has been often described the same way. I think that, wether we realize it or not, when we don't like an artist or his music we are sometimes reacting to that artist's individual persona. |
...'I downgrade performers more than most if I don't like their persona'... ...'I won't even listen to Wagner because I loathe him as a person'... I am afraid that doing so, by not distingushing personalitys from their art, you are narrowing your choise, because, to say at least, there are so many artist who have been known as troubled individuals, if we are going to belleive to history books or to written observations from those who knew them. Among them quite a few jazzmen, painters, writers, film makers or actors. For exmp. Chet Baker, Salvador Dali, Caravaggio,Dostoyevski, Kusturica or John Wayne, just to name first ones that came to my mind. |
"P. S I don't have to imagine the Paramount in the 40's, I was in it then." Schubert I hear you, my father loathed him for exactly the same reasons you do and I certainly get the why of it but probably not to the same extent as someone who witnessed it first hand. The one thing I admire in Sinatra if little else, is his tenacity and belief in himself but conversely his pettyness. He was a very complex individual, generous on one hand, unforgiving and a bully on the other and I suppose this just adds into the equation of the enduring facination with his persona maybe even more so than his singing. I personally don't believe the two can be separate. If you take away the personality from the singer he, at least in my estimation, would have fizzed out long before his remarkable comeback. |
Frogman, thanks for the link, I don't even know how to do it. And he was an old man then. There was another clip on the right of Mel singing with his quartet decades earlier. At one point his piano player gets slightly ,and I do mean SLIGHTLY , behind and Mel instantly synchs to him , It was so fast I had to watch it 4 times to be sure I was hearing what I saw. IMO, Torme could constantly improvise without changing the intent , either in lyrics or tune, of the composer in a way I never heard anyone else do. I fully understand why folks think of him as just another crooner. you have to listen to him as closely as you would a Mozart concerto to grasp just how great he was. |
Schubert, what did you think about Charley Parkers music? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhNQCT6myRw Enjoy the music. |
Now Schubert I would only say this. Imagine, if you can, that you are a teenage girl and you and your girl friends are in the audience at the Paramount in the early 40's listening to your idol, Frank Sinatra swooning "Night and Day". Are you ever going to forget it? Would you care whether anyone else cares what is important to you? Whether you like Sinatra or not for whatever reason one thing is undeniable, the man worked hard at his craft and promoted it by whatever means necessary. As time went by he became a better musician because of it and he has to at LEAST be given credit for that especially after all the obstacles he encountered, divorcing his wife and the disfavor of the public after that. Me? I think he has nothing more than an average range but is the master of phrasing musically and self promotion and delusion (of the masses) at worst. One can thank Dolly for that, but what are mother's for? Ask all those American Idol participants. Sinatra is more than about his voice, it's about the American Dream, how even mediocrity can elevate itself to something special in it's own unique way. |
Schubert, while I don't agree that Frank Sinatra was a bad joke, I don't think you are delusional nor full of it. I never cared much for Sinatra's musical persona but recognize why he is considered so great by so many. He had a very straightforward delivery of a song with little embellishment or vocal affectations and a fantastic sense of rhythm. I have always preferred the young Sinatra from the '40's, before his voice got so husky and "masculine"; and before his Vegas "baby" and "broads" persona took over along with the sense that he was doing the listener a favor by letting him/her hear him sing. This is clearly a subjective reaction, but it has been there for me in most of what he did from the '50s forward. I often found his singing simply joyless; unlike a singer like Tony Bennett or Mel Torme. Sinatra and Torme were two totally different types of singers, and while I would never say that Torme was "better" than Sinatra I am surprised that Learsfool considers him only a pleasant voice. Compared to singers of that generation, Torme could swing his ass off and was a true jazz singer who could scat like no other with the exception of Ella. I definitely understand your reaction to both Sinatra and Torme. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vZlyfa28iQ |