Jazz for aficionados
I am afraid I'll have nothing to contribute. May I please remain in 50's and 60's? I have not reached the music of 70's yet, somehow I feel I would not at all. I'll just repeat my last posting, Orpheus, maybe it will make you reconsider and return back 'on the track'... http://youtu.be/ftRd77HPpEs http://youtu.be/-jdSgSSciM0 |
Gato, 'The third World'. People have been arrested for less. Soundwave generators. Not Music. I confess to having at least one of his LPs. WTF was I thinking! GroverWashington: "Inner cityt blues" Not a bad player. Made enjoyable music. During the first heart transplant or artifical heart implant in the US, the Doctor had his "Inside Moves" piped into the OR. Not Jazz. Again, I confess to having some of his stuff. "Then and Now" and "Mister Magic" on CD. Also the Pop CD "Winelight". Soon you people will tire of trying to re-define the music. |
Well aficionados, as much as we liked those decades, it's time to move on to the 70's, and examine that decade in detail. There was a problem that began in the 70's, and continued on until this very day; "Is it is, or is it ain't jazz"? I might like this music, and that music; whether or not they are both jazz, I'll leave to the "jazz identifiers". While "Wikipedia" might consider them both jazz, some aficionados wont. I'm going to begin this discussion with two artists whose music is clearly jazz. "Gato" ushered in the 70's with a new sound that blended South America with modern jazz. Grover Washington Junior came on the scene like a blinding light; while some nit picking aficionados found fault with Grover's music because he was too popular, it suited me just fine. Let us begin with Gato; I have most of his records from 69 on into the present, and "The Third World" was the first album I acquired; it sounds like the title. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5XcEi8cvc I began with Grover in 1970, and continued buying his albums all the way until his death. Let me began with "Inner City Blues" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLncRYHH4qI Enjoy the music. |
You know you like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xrQY_FLM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzNeh4Mq1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfYZ6qxet8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXRnxieda34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6blBC9Vo904 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SazTdJxwLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbaSh8i5eyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Lh4MFiw08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWJVfEU0Mec Cheers |
Miles Bootleg 2, is two nights in summer of 1969 with the" Lost Quintet",prior to Bitches Brew and two shows after the recording of Bitches Brew. The sound is not as good as Bootleg one, but a fasinating transitional time, with the previously unrecorded band. Before BB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sayOJKN6yuo After BB.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efi1qLzDQlI |
***** I would have thought that by the time the 50's ended and the 60's rolled around rock and roll and crooners was the menu in jukeboxes.****** In my neck of the woods typical JukeBox fare at upscale hip bars, was like: Cannonball, Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Smith, Dianh Washington, Nancy Wilson etc.... along with some R&B and Bossa Nova stuff. 45rpm of course Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmwsQ_dHrFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4rXEKtC8iY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR3rm-4ZiFo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKLB71QE4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmBxVfQTuvI When I was broke, which was often, it was back to John Lee Hooker and the boys. Cheers |
Decades ago I saw Roy Clark the main man on the "Hee Haw" hillbilly TV show , on one of the late-night TV shows. Roy was a trained musician and a good guitar and mandolin player who played jazz guitar for years before switching to country where the cash is. The host asked Roy why there were so many jazzmen in country,Roy, who was more than a little drunk, blurted out"because you have to be really good to play out of tune ALL the time " . |
Frogman, The Sidewinder is a 1964 album by the jazz trumpeter Lee Morgan, recorded at the Van Gelder Studio in Englewood, New Jersey, USA. It was released on the Blue Note label as BLP 4157 and BST 84157. The title track, "The Sidewinder", was one of the defining recordings of the soul jazz genre, becoming a jazz standard. An edited version was released as a single. The album became a huge seller, and highly influential - many subsequent Morgan albums, and other Blue Note discs, would duplicate (or approximate) this album's format, by following a long, funky opening blues with a handful of conventional hard bop tunes. Record producer Michael Cuscuna recalls the unexpected success: "the company issued only 4,000 copies upon release. Needless to say, they ran out of stock in three or four days. And 'The Sidewinder' became a runaway smash making the pop 100 charts." By January 1965, the album had reached No. 25 on the Billboard chart. The title track was used as the music in a Chrysler television advertisement and as a theme for television shows. Enjoy the music |
Frogman, a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or past time is an "aficionado". A person who puts a quarter in a jukebox, may or may not be an "aficionado". All those guys were on jukeboxes in San Antonio, Texas in the late 50's and early 60's; that's not the hippest city in the world. I believe Rok, was around that part of Texas at that time. When people come into a club, have a drink and put a quarter in the jukebox, I don't call them aficionados. They were on jukeboxes in all major cities at that time; that's where I'm coming from, I don't mean the public that was looking at "I love Lucy". I think we're splitting hairs in regard to the public; maybe I ran into a hipper "general public ". Not only that, but all those musicians were on somebody's TV show at that time, this certainly gave them a wider exposure than just aficionados. Enjoy the music. |
That's not quite what O-10 said: ***When a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by jazz aficionados, that's one thing, but when a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by the general public, that's an affirmation of his greatness; such was the case with Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons.*** O-10, I am a little confused by that comment. Explain when and how "the general public" acknowledged any of the players you mentioned. I think that those who acknowledge(d) them are, by definition, "aficionados". I think that the general public, with the exception of players like Gets, Brubeck and a handful others who had jazz "hits" or were of extremely high profile like Miles would sadly not know (or have known) Silver or Timmons from Adam. What am I missing? |
Two more from The Best of the 1950's. Too much bass? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cytUz9KkK9M Another one that fell to drugs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD2l7VwQpbg Cheers |
Also loved the Miles! The band was insanely good at this point in time. They not only were finishing each others sentences, but a lot of finishing only implied sentences. The Miles Bootleg Series has been excellent! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLXwEmSs0oQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y55pjxb4JHA |
Rok, Blakey didn't always have control over who stayed and who left; musicians like Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons were bound to strike out on their own. When a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by jazz aficionados, that's one thing, but when a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by the general public, that's an affirmation of his greatness; such was the case with Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, regarding J.Lytle, his music has a such a good 'groove', no matter that is simple. Certainly I appreciate your opinion, and there is no such thing as 'too much knowledge', but sometimes, when the music is in the question, I allow myself some visceral feeling about it. Allow me to post two albums of now rather unknown guitar player that I like much, and who is rooted in the blues. Al Casey, used to play with Fats Waller, and later with other greats. http://youtu.be/ftRd77HPpEs http://youtu.be/-jdSgSSciM0 |
Thanks for the clips Alexatpos. Bobby Timmons was a great player with a great time feel and a kind of unassuming way with his style that always feels right and often surprises. O-10 is probably correct; but, if Bobby Timmons was the most underrated player in jazz, then Johnny Lytle was the most overrated. I just don't get it, and I would love to know the story behind his appearance on many of these records; there's always a story. He was featured in this thread a while ago and my reaction is still the same: a player comfortable in the simplest of jazz forms, the twelve bar blues, with a very undeveloped improvisation ability. He plays the same blues scale over the entire twelve bar progression, and seems to ramble without a clear sense of shape in his solos; some of his solos border on being b.s. in their lack of coherence and purpose. Even his time feel is unsophisticated with the notes on the upbeats being too close to the downbeats the way a young player plays when he tries to "swing". To my ears there's always a sense of relief when Timmons follows one of his vibes solos; "aah, that's what it's supposed to feel like". One man's opinion. |
Orpheus, I am glad that you like it. Pleasure is all mine when I read your true life stories about people that we all can only imagine, while listening their music. I wish that you open a topic only about that subject. To answer one your previous question about pianist John Wright, I have 4 of his albums, but I have never been to Chicago, yet, my visits to Usa were limited to NYC or L.A. I hope nobody will mind if I say that I more prefer the NYC. Here are couple albums of musicians, all from Chicago. Richard Evans trio, on piano is young Jack Wilson http://youtu.be/hWXVnz0UdNU Than, Norman Simmons http://youtu.be/92od-i-jtC0 ...and one, recorded more recently... http://youtu.be/Qz0okMYf1W8 |
Today's Listen: Art Blakey -- !!!!!impulse!!!!!art blakey!!!!!jazz messengers!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nghsczow3kM O-10, I agree with you once again. The best Jazz messengers group ever. Shorter, Timmons, Morgan and Fuller. I listened to it twice. Great playing by all. Why was there so much turnover in the groups? Did Blakey see that as his 'mission'? Was it by design? Talk. Cheers |
*****Not sure whether you are serious or not; it is, of course, not true.****** Comes under the heading of "messin' with The Frogman". However I have never seen a conductor act like that. I like a show. Remember the French guy? Lenny? Being our resident Guru, of course we expect an explaination. Cheers |
*****The people claiming to save it, will be the one's who put it in a museum for preservation.****** Some of the people trying to save it, feel that, just because some guy paints a Soup Can, you don't go throw the Mona Lisa in the trash. That's all. Come to think, Jazz could learn something from the world of artist that paint. They hang Warhol's Soup Cans right next to Picasso's Guernica, which hangs right next to Rubens' Nudes and him next to da Vinci's Mona Lisa etc...... They value their Greats. Cheers |
*****A simple yet incredible performance. Impossible for anyone to listen to this and not be moved I would think. Is it jazz?****** People of her era had to sing without the aid of electrical amplification. You filled the room by having a powerful voice. Sort of like Paul Robeson. Very moving song. Is it Jazz? I wouldn't say so. This and Jazz, are two branches on the same tree. But, she did perform at a lot of Jazz festivals, and that is The Duke on the cover. Let's just say, it's great music. Cheers |
One of My Favorites A simple yet incredible performance. Impossible for anyone to listen to this and not be moved I would think. Is it jazz? |
Bobby Timmons 'Workin out'album is a great one, and there he plays with Johnny Lytle. I will use the opportunity to point at couple of his albums as well. Timmons: http://youtu.be/ovPCAhzEvgw http://youtu.be/u58QYljKcf4 J.Lytle http://youtu.be/Hm5cXBulyaY http://youtu.be/PL5YmGFap-U http://youtu.be/VLddG-fDDuw |
****Always Suspected They Were Superfluous.**** Not sure whether you are serious or not; it is, of course, not true. If you would like to know why it's not true, I would be glad to tell you; just don't want to waste time in pointless arguing. BTW, the Miles clip is fabulous. My favorite band in all of recorded jazz. They played with an obvious connection to the past as well as an open window to what the future of jazz would bring. |
O-10, understood; our listening room should be the place where music provides whatever it is we want from listening. I would only point out that it is not only musicians who don't shy away from having to make an effort to hear it. I have met many non-musician avid music lovers who appreciate being challenged by the music; it's a personal matter. |
The whole paragraph is true, not just the last sentence. Jazz can never stand still, and in this constant movement there is bound to be mistakes and successes. Anything truly free to change will do that. It will be messy,like the people playing it and listening to it, but to make rules to protect it is, ironically, the only thing that can kill it. The people claiming to save it, will be the one's who put it in a museum for preservation. |
O-10: I decided to try "This Here Is Bobby Timmons". His stuff is getting to be expensive on Amazon. Found this one in my collection. they were really Young when this was recorded. Great notes by Cannonball. He speaks of these guys as if he is introducing them to most of us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kazM1KlaImY Cannonball also said this: "Modern Jazz obviously cannot and will not stand still. Modern Jazz traditionalists must realize that the music of Bird is only a logical stepwise development of that which has gone on before. Conversely, the Avant-garde cannot expect basic stylistic changes to develop among mature players through artifical stimuli; for the hysterical cry for change tends to give sancturary to charlatans." May be a little dated, but the last sentence is still very true!! Cheers |
Coltrane, "My Favorite Things" is so timeless; it sounds as good today as when I first heard it. McCoy Tyner's solo was even better. They didn't have Eric on that set, he adds an interesting touch. This is the third and best variation of this tune by Trane that I've heard, it never got too far out. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: Did you notice how Clark Terry and Muddy Waters meshed so effortlessly? Someone once said, Cannonball maybe, "It's not the same thing, but it's from the same thing". Speaking of Blues and Jazz. Cannonball loved to talk. Two guys from the 50's that were rumored, to be able to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVFLYz0SdKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH3JpqhpkXg Aaron Copland - "Is there a meaning to music? Yes. Can you state in so many words what the meaning is? No." Cheers |
Rok, I think the Bobby Timmons Trio's are the best for focusing exclusively on his music. The most amazing thing about his music, was it's instant ability to communicate even without words; take "Moanin" for example; somehow I heard the words before "Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross" sang it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldXi8bs6PSw Whatever the art, the bottom line is "communication". Bobby Timmons music was uncomplicated and it communicated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTsU_xoNyMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEnbXVqQ1go Bobby was not economically successful for a number of reasons that are too depressing to go into, and one of them was drug addiction. Heroin was very expensive, and it turned a man into a slave. While some jazz musicians had such heavy psychological baggage that it's possible they would have used drugs whether they were musicians or not (Bird and Lady Day) others, such as Bobby Timmons had no such baggage, neither did Tina Brooks; I'm referring to the sociological background. I suspect the availability of drugs in New York and the influence of other musician addicts precipitated their use of drugs. One time and a person is hooked, there's no turning back, and then there's the living death before actual death. In regard to music, they couldn't play "Jingle Bells" when they got high; it always amounted to a "no show". Fortunately, that problem is not prevalent with today's musicians. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, thanks for the clarification. Issue of semantics and personal definition at work here. For me, "cerebral" and "cerebrally" would seem to mean the precise opposite of your definition. While I do agree with your description of the process of listening, it is (again, for me) applicable only some of the time. Being that music being listened to is someone else's expression of their experiences and memories, there are times that what the music precisely demands of me is a concentrated effort to hear it. |
Who is Frogman? There are many Frogmen inside "The" Frogman, all stored in the recesses of his mind. When the music is resonant to some memorable experience, it will excite that memory. Frogman doesn't make a concentrated effort to hear the music, he lets it come to him. That's when it will excite the emotion associated with the memory of some long forgotten event. That's what listening cerebrally is about. Right now "Last Tango in Paris" is on my rig, it's the lush one associated with the movie. I see Marlon Brando and his lady without a name doing the Tango in Paris. This music excites all the memories I can associate with that movie. I made no conscious effort what so ever for this to happen, the music excited the memory it was resonant to; that's what listening cerebrally is about, it's letting your psyche do the listening. I'll respond if this needs clarification. Enjoy the music. |
Acman3, that clip is an absolute gem; thanks for posting it. A TV show about Jazz that even teaches the viewer about some of its fundamentals!! Amazing! And what a great reminder about our changing times. George Russell's comments at 14:15 are especially good. Biggest surprise: A young Doc Severinsen (before he was Doc) improvising on the first tune. Who knew?! |
Rok, you are definitely back on the track, especially with Kenny Dorham; but you ain't heard the blues until you hear them in a "Juke Joint". Albert King liked juke joints so much, I believe he regretted becoming famous; even after he became famous, he still lived in "Lovejoy, Illinois" which was in close proximity to a lot of juke joints. Enjoy the music. |
