I just plunked down $15.94 for "7 classic albums" by George Russell.
Cheers
Cheers
Jazz for aficionados
Once, when i was in a used record store, a man and I started talking about Jazz. I told him I was new to Jazz and barely knew anything. He said, " if you buy anything today, buy George Russell"s recording Stratasphunk" I plunked down my $3.99. Sweet! http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=g1feYNzVunI |
On Ran Blakes latest record,( sorry no YouTube yet), Ghost Tones, " Portraits of George Russell" there is a story of when Russell's recording " Jazz Workshop" went out of print in 1959, Ran Blake went around getting jazz people to commit to purchase it if RCA- Victor would re-release it. The people who signed it are a who's who of Jazz. Some are Jaki Byard, Ornette Coleman, Chris Connor, Bill Dixon, Eric Dolphy, Sweets Edison, Nesuhi Ertegun, Gil Evans, Jimmie Giuffre, Charles Mingus, JJ Johnson, Baroness Kathleen Annie Pannonica Rothschild , Barbara, Nellie, TS, and Thelonious Monk, and so many more. They have copies of the actual sheets and it is very cool to look through the signatures. RCA producer George Avakian replied that he would forward the list to higher ups. It wasn't released until 1987. |
That's what happens when you're in a hurry. This is what should have happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03juO5oS2gg Enjoy the music. |
Here are examples of the music "So What" by Miles and "Impressions" by Trane. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU[url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03juO5oS2gg>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k94zDsJ-JMU[url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU[url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03juO5oS2gg Enjoy the music. |
Modal Jazz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz This is what George Russell is known for. As usual, it seems as if no one person is solely responsible for innovations. Started in Puerto Rico?? Frogman, Where is 'Modal Jazz' in today's Jazz scene ? Cheers |
Frogman, this is the cut Rok spoke of, it's pretty good. Is there anything academic on this record you would care to point out? The recording quality is exceptional, all things considered. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yGof9LU73c This is what you posted on another thread, I like it; this connects with something in the back of my mind that I'll have to catch up with; the bottom line is we never got real Cuban music over here, just some kind of filtered jive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUjpFi9NRNM&app=desktop I'm thinking about going into the best jazz bass player next. This came to me when I was listening to the reel, and thought "that guy on bass is out of sight" and I still don't know who it was. As I explained before, I listen to my PC play list, and reel a lot, therefore I don't have who I'm listening to in front of me. It seems I'm stymied by bass players more than on any other instrument. Best composer who plays bass, might not translate into best bass payer; Just a thought. Enjoy the music. |
Re George Russell: ****I never heard of him....**** Actually, George Russell has been mentioned at least twice on this thread. A while back I posted a clip of the TV show "The Subject Is Jazz" from the '50's and which featured a band led by Billy Taylor. The episode I posted included an interview with George Russell in which he discussed his Lydian chromatic concept. Imagine a TT show that discussed jazz theory! How the public has been dumbed down re the arts. The other time the actual mention was not by me, but by Phil Woods. In the clip that I posted of a Phil Woods master class, he talks about the origin of the rumor that he had and played Charlie Parker's horn. Apparently, George Russell erroneously mentioned in a book that he wrote that Woods had Bird's alto. Woods used to tell a very funny story about being fed up of setting the record straight, and finally when his wife Chan (Bird's widow) sold the horn to a museum for $140,000, when asked he would respond: "I only have a couple left...would you like to buy one?" :) |
Rok, I can hear one of my childhood friends laughing 0n that record; he must have painted a mustache and wore a big hat to get in the Pershing because he definitely wasn't old enough. I would know that "donkey" laugh of his anywhere. I don't know exactly where on the record this appears, but listen for an unmistakable "donkey" laugh and you'll know that's him. You most certainly would not have minded getting kidnapped by "Legba's" lady who "Tubs" tried to rescue, she was incredibly beautiful; look it up on "you tube". I never heard of "George Russel", but I will see what I can find by him; what I found by him on "you tube" sure sounded good. From what I read, that you pointed out, he was most certainly what you would call a musical genius in the academic sense. Enjoy the music. |
Listened to an old favorite today. "The 100 Best Jazz Tunes of the 1950's" Played disc #7. All Great tunes. One was by George Russell, "Manhattan". I Googled to find out who is/was George Russell. This guy is one of the most important figures in Jazz. You should Google him and learn his story. Reading about him makes you want to know more about music in an academic sense. Nuts and Bolts??? :) The 100 best tunes could be the only Jazz CDs a person needs. Great Music and Sound. Cheers |
*****I only realized from your posts how important "Nawlins" is to our musical heritage***** It's importance cannot be overstated. Not only did Jazz begin there, it is possible, that it was the ONLY place it could have been created. You could say Nawlins was the perfectly blended Gumbo. Just enough of the bad and the good. Too much of the bad, and we would not have progressed beyond the Blues. Too much of the good, and Jelly Roll and the guys would have been playing Sousa. Cheers |
This is just fun and wonderful!!!! Check out their other links. How music should be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c9-poC5HGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElrmDDjn6o Cheers |
Rok, Every time I see or hear one of the great one's, I have to check to make sure they're still with us. I'm glad to see that Aaron Neville is still touring. I only realized from your posts how important "Nawlins" is to our musical heritage. Going all the way back to my late teen years when I "snuck" into one of the larger "juke joints" where a blues band was playing. What I didn't know, was those slick piano licks he was hittin came from Nawlins, and they came there so long ago nobody knows where they came from, but whoever is playing the piano claims them; most say "the Professor" brought them to town. Dr. John is like a museum for Nawlins; he keeps all the old ways like "Gri Gri", and other "hoodoo" stuff alive. Baron Smedi, who is on the cover of "Creole Moon" was in an episode of "Miami Vice" where "Legba", a voodoo high priest from Haiti captured "Tubs" when he went undercover. Here's "Bruha Bembe" from "Creole Moon"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA-ZaD7QtGw Enjoy the music. |
I heard many a tale about '27 high water' when I was growing up. I think the Mississippi flooded from it's source to the gulf. This is my favorite version. A Boss CD also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0icuTyAvnPA Just found this. Very good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMktmt9H_2U Cheers |
It looks like this might happen all over again; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcASVdqUeOo Out of all the beautiful cuts by Eddie Harris, I think this is the most beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-RIqDbEl4k It seems I got stuck on Eddie Harris, that's easy to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBrV2XYJP7k Enjoy the music. |
*****When I went back to Chicago as an adult, the place had changed so much I hardly recognized it.***** The writer, Thomas Wolfe, nailed it when he said "you can never go home again". You did set me straight on one thing. I always thought the LP 'Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing' was recorded at a club in Pittsburgh. I guess I got my wires crossed due to Jamal being a native of Pittsburgh. I have hated on those people all these years because of the perfunctory applause he received for the tune 'Poinciana'. Along with all the chatter. Now I will have to transfer my wrath to Chicago. Thanks for the post Cheers |
Rok, if there were only two people I would want to say that I saw live, they would be Lou Rawls, and Nancy Wilson. When I saw them on DVD they projected as live, and Lou Rawls was close to live on records when he sang about the Chicago South Side. He brought a fantastic place to life, that is no more. "South Side Soul" is a record Alex brought to my attention of this fantastic place that is projected in the music of John Wright. They even honor John Wright to this day in Chicago for capturing the soul of "The South Side", and putting it on a record. Lou Rawls put "South Side Soul" on records in the form of his words and song. It was one of those places that is left to live in the memories of the people who experienced the magic of "South Side Soul", and nowhere else. This was the "hippest" coolest place I've ever been in my life, unfortunately I was in my middle teens and could only read signs like "Miles Davis appearing nightly"; and this was at a small club that I passed on my daily walks. Chicago nights were cool at that time, and I liked to borrow one of my cousins best sport coats, or sweaters and stroll Cottage Grove between 65th and 63rd street where the El Train ran. It was just as brightly lit at night as it was in the day, and you might even get a glimpse of "Dinah Washington" going to the Pershing Lounge; she both entertained there, and went there to be entertained; that's where Ahmed Jamal made his famous record, and he was also the "House Band". I think Dinah Washington lived in the neighborhood back then. When I went back to Chicago as an adult, the place had changed so much I hardly recognized it. We, all the people who rode on that magic carpet, still have the music of Lou Rawls, and John Wright. Enjoy the music. |
****Share your experiences of hearing fantastic unknown musicians live.**** Never had the opportunity to hear much Jazz live. I used to frequent a nice Jazz club in Tuscon, Arizona. Very nice bands, but I have no idea who they were. A few Jazz bands played the Military Club system in Germany, but again, no names I can remember. Also great Blues groups in El Paso, Texas. The best live music I have ever heard was from 'soul' bands out of Yugoslavia, playing the U.S. Military club circuit in Germany. They sounded, live, better than any Motown I have ever heard on LP/CD. Great stuff. Not being a member of the Warsaw Pact, they traveled freely in the West. The only Big Time acts I have heard/seen live, Lou Rawls and Nancy Wilson. I am sure I have heard folks like B.B. King, Lightin' Hopkins, Bobby Bland, Howlin' wolf et al. The only thing is, I was too young to get in. Had to listen from the ouside. Cheers |
*****Rok has sometimes alluded to the issue of "too much knowledge". While I don't agree that there can ever be too much knowledge***** Of course as a professional musician, you cannot have too much knowledge of music. But in the sense I was speaking I offer three examples: (1) Watching people prepare your food in a restaurant, or the old thingy about making sausage. I think we all know what I am speaking of here. Also, think chicken farms and slaughter houses. (2) Flying on commercial airliners. Watch a few episodes of AIR DISASTERS or WHY PLANES CRASH, and I guarantee you will never sleep or rest easy on one again. The things your life can depend on.!! (3) Music: This morning I was listening to The Barber of Seville. Thomas Allen, Agnes Baltsa, St Martin in Fields -- Marriner. (Highlights) My favorite operatic recording. All Opera should be this well recorded. I always listen to it from start to finish. Today I just went to amazon to see if my enthusiasm was shared. It was, but, one reviewer gave the Highlights disc one star. Went into chapter and verse on how the opera was butchered by the cuts made. I am sure he is correct, but it is also true that, I was/am blissfully unaware of anything he was talking about. Cheers |
Let's take our present conversation into relatively unknown musicians, you saw live, that you thought were fantastic. Fantastic female vocalists don't make it when they're not pretty. "Koko Taylor" must have gotten her start before television. Rok, when you lived in Endicott, N.Y. you liked the house organist; that's what I'm talking about when comparing live versus recorded. The range of an organ is too great for any recording equipment; that guy you heard probably sounded better live, than Jimmy Smith sounded on record. I saw a blues guitarist in Lovejoy, Ill. that was too fantastic for words. Albert King lived in Eagle Park Acres; that was a suburb of Lovejoy, Illinois; talking about the boonies, when it got dark in Eagle Park Acres, bright headlights was like lighting a candle. That must have reminded him of Mississippi; but it was an easy drive to St. Louis. Share your experiences of hearing fantastic unknown musicians live. Enjoy the music. |
*****Wynton Marsalis***** Love the guy for what he does for the music. I shudder to think where we would be if the 'wrong' guy had the gig at Lincoln Center. He is a great ambassodor for Jazz. His playing? I don't think Be-bop/hard bop is his natural element. He is the obvious and rightful heir to Louis. He is at home with the founders in New Orleans. It shows in his playing and the way he lights up when talking about them. When he plays that style Jazz, his horn sings like no other!! He ain't the angry inner city player. Cheers |
*****I was only feet away from both players when I heard them; no recording, and no recording equipment can duplicate organ, not even high end.***** I agree. When I lived in Endicott, NY, my favorite Bar, in nearby Binghamton, had a house band based around the organist. Wow!! Live definitely makes a difference. Cheers |
Alex, thank you for the thoughtful post. Please understand, my primary motivation is not to "teach". Like all of us on this thread I share my thoughts and likes and dislikes. If, given my particular background and perspective, anyone finds value in what I have to say, that's great. However, like all of us, I have to be honest with what I think about a topic or player and try to explain why. I too can and do learn from your posts and others'. Rok has sometimes alluded to the issue of "too much knowledge". While I don't agree that there can ever be too much knowledge, I think that there is a lot of value in understanding why certain music or artists may appeal to a listener who has not had any formal training or experience in music or performance. This is not a condescending attitude, but an honest acknowledgment of the value in a perspective that is more emotional and less "encumbered" by "facts". I hesitate to say this because, in the end, facts (objectivism) matter a great deal. The subject of objectivism vs. subjectivism has been the topic of debate many times on this thread. As with most things in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I think the main sticking point in our recent disagreement has to do with the degree to which you and I feel we are being limited by where we draw the "greatness" line. I don't agree with your stance that where I am drawing the line (as you see it) limits the listener to just "a handful" of artists; quite the contrary. First of all, I completely agree with you that there are many jazz players that deserved more recognition. I am simply saying that, USUALLY BUT NOT ALWAYS, the less recognition a player received the farther from "top tier" status they usually were; based on ability. I must also say that, since your first post on the subject, your posted examples of players have gotten progressively better, imo; players like Phineas Newborn and Clark Terry are hardly "unknowns" and are fantastic players. So, just how much are we limiting ourselves by "ignoring" some of these least pkayers. Let's stick, for a moment, to trumpet players since Dave Burns relates to all this and was one of your first examples. Let me also say that, for me, the line is drawn, first and foremost, at a player's ability to project an individualistic sound or style; iow, does he have something to say that is unique or his own. For example, I can hear just a few measures of Louis Armstrong, Miles, Freddie, Lee Morgan (!!!), Dizzy, Clark Terry, Clifford, Woody Shaw, Dave Douglas, Kenny Dorham and be able to identify the player. To a lesser degree (takes longer listening and harder to identify): Nat Adderley, Tom Harrell, Randy Brecker, Red Rodney, Fats Navarro, Thad Jones, Donald Byrd. To an even lesser degree: Ira Sullivan, Tim Hagans, and the list goes on and on. When one considers how much many of these players have recorded, no, I don't feel it limits at all; I consider all of these players to be at the top of the heap and to have individualistic styles to one degree or another. In the case of Wynton (Rok, you can ignore this) I can always identify him by the sheer virtuosity and technical perfection in his playing. This all leads to Dave Burns since you asked: I don't hear an individualistic sound. I don't hear from him anything that hasn't been said by many other bop/hard bop players. Moreover, technically I hear a sense that, technically, he is not totally secure. Listen to the end of phrases and he "flubs" or slurs the notes. He can get around the instrument well, but there is the sense that he might lose technical control of the instrument sometimes and miss a note. Miles also conveyed this sense sometimes, but this was an artistic choice. It was part of his musical "attitude"; a kind of "fuck you" attitude and arrogance that went along with his habit of turning his back to the audience. Still, a genius who could play with technical perfection (or close to it) when he felt like it. Anyway, thanks for the dialogue and interesting topic. I think that if we have more agreement than disagreement. |
*****Sam Lazarr***** Nice enough, but the sound, mainly due to the organ, sounded muffled and veiled. You don't need the top end of the freq range to play this. The importance of dynamic range in music cannot be overstated. *****Eddie Fisher***** Same as above, but very bad recording. Organ player?? I recommend Joey DeFrancesco. Cheers |
The first Jazz LP I ever purchased. I think he liked trains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfl5AVTrMfE Cheers |
When you're young, the most important musicians are the one's you can see live. Famous musicians could be in town every weekend, but I couldn't afford to see them. Live beats famous all day long when your only option for the famous is what you have at home to play them on. Although we can't all share the local musicians I saw every weekend, I can tell you about them, and you can tell me about the musicians where you are. Of course Frogman is exempt since he lives in New York. "Leo's 5" was one of my favorite groups, along with the "Trio Trebien", I saw them quite often; this is when I was much younger in the 60's, and that certainly made a difference. "Sam Lazarr" was a local musician I enjoyed. This gives you an idea of what I heard. Nothing compares to being on a live set with friends or a beautiful lady, all dressed elegantly in the fashions of the day. It seems I particularly liked the warm sound of guitar and organ when it was below 0 and snow outside. There's something exhilarating about an organ that can not be duplicated on the set up at home, even when it's "high end". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-tAMbi54-0 "Eddie Fisher" was an artist I saw often, he could work that "Third Cup" in and out so many different ways for an hour, and nobody would be tired of it; that's the mark of a great musician. Everybody knew Eddie Fisher was a great musician except "Eddie Fisher". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuAQFFOuy3c As I'm listening to it, what it means to be on a live is coming to me; easy going soft conversation about the music and musicians, nothing ever loud enough to disturb the music. That warm feeling you get when you're in the company of like minded people. Alex and Frogman, you both came up with so many "truths" in regard to why some people make the grade in regard to great, that you agree on, why don't you let me deal with what you don't agree on. Enjoy the music. |
Sorry, this is a clip with the great cover,that I mentioned above https://youtu.be/dG-RLgDabRs The trumpets are played by Clark Terry and Snooky Young.The pair recorded lots of albums playing together, but Young did not make any album as leader untill 70's. |
*****Lorez Alexandria***** Nice enough voice. Born in California and seems to have stayed there. Should have moved to NYC / East Coast if a Jazz career was her goal. The Frogman pretty much nailed it. All the lesser knowns, are lesser known for a reason. Her case falls under my list as, (no drive ambition) and (wrong place/time). not criticisms. I understand she sang in the church. She may have been very happy. She recorded for the KING label. The last KING label I saw was on a 78rpm disc. I wonder what part Record labels play in success or lack thereof. Cheers |
Frogman, I am pleased that I can learn something from you, would not loose time in arguing, hope that I do not leave that impression. Regarding the subject, of players who were not appriciated enough. Hope that these words will finaly clear my point of view on that matter. I have suggested that here are numerous players in jazz, who did not get substantial recognition. You, on the other hand, think that everyone who had such destiny, simply deserved it, because was not good enough player, and that the great ones always will come to the top. I belleive that in term 'great' lies the root of our missunderstanding. For me, there are lots of 'great' players, for you, there is only a handfull of 'the great' ones. With that I agree. (THE great) On the other hand, very few men can deliver the things that the 'The graet' ones can, and by messuring everything with that standards in mind, man can only narrow his musical choices. Thats what I ment when I have used the analogy with Rembrandt. Very few men in history of art had his skills, would that mean that their work is not great or impressive? But, let us not go into semantics. You have mentioned 'context' as well. If we look some players and their work in time when they lived, man could be surprised to find, that even Grant Green, for example, was not considered 'the top' player, and was deeply unhappy with his status. So, it was really tough world where they lived and it is no wonder that many lost their way or just remained in obscurity. Of course, I am very courious to find more 'hidden' music and to know more about it in general, and that is all I ever wanted to say. You may have found all music that you thought that is worth listening too, and thats fine. Certainly I will continue to try to look things from your perspective in order to understand better or to learn something new, and for that I am gratefull that you are writing here. As for George Benson, my thoghts are quite subjective, he is a very good player, but he never managed to 'touch' me, always he gave me the 'hollow' feeling, like his skills exsisted just because of them self,not because he was trying to transcedent some feeling with his playing. Kind of Al Di Meola, guy can play, but there is something missing. As for Dave Burns, you clearly are not his fan, maybe you could tell us why? You are quite happy to not have him in your collection, does that mean that you will skip the albums where he played or had some bigger part?Some of very fine Dizzy's, Moody's, Griffin,s Taylor,s and so on, list is long? I like the album, but the cover is great, looks like its have been made with some Edward Hopper's painting in mind https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s |
Mapman: *****I'm no expert but I have heard Oscar Peterson many times over the years and I always enjoy his recordings.***** You don't have to be an expert to love Oscar Peterson. I had decided to post asking everyone to state the three players they actually listen to most, by instrument. My Piano list included Oscar Peterson, Gene Harris and Horace Silver. cheers |
He may have. It's his solo and I'm not inside his head, but it's a predetermined amount of playing space (two choruses) and there is no musical distinction between what I imagined he was saying and what you imagined. It's a solo and that was the first note. You're thinking about it the right way 'though. |
Rok, it's the first note of his solo. Nice way to start a solo; economical use of just one note. Think of a solo in terms of speech; hence why it is referred to as telling a story. Listen to the shape of that opening musical comment that starts with just one note. Maybe Wynton is saying: "HEY!.......Rok is NOW calling" 😎 Each player takes two choruses of twelve measures each (twelve bar blues). Wynton's first chorus starts at 4:25; it's his turn to play at that point and he plays his first note, as you point out, at 4:26. If you want to feel the shape or form of the tune (twelve bar blues), find the beat, tap your foot on that beat 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4 etc. (each measure or bar has four beats) and start counting at exactly 4:25. You wil find that Wynton plays for 24 (12x2) measures of four beats each (two choruses). Btw, don't hate the band at all. Great feeling and they are having a blast. |
Rok, what are friends for; Boo! Boo! Boo!, Hss! Hss! Hss!. Now that I got that out of the way, I'll listen to the clip. "Just throw me back in the alley, and let me roll with the rest of the tin cans". The first time I heard that, I was two miles below "Tupelo". "Nawlins here I come". That's what I call fun music, and I'm going to just have some fun and enjoy it. They certainly had a good time. Enjoy the music. |
It seems to me that the musicians that didn't get their due recognition are "West Coast", and musicians I actually met in LA told me they were making a good living out there, and didn't want to hit the road. What they didn't realize is that most musicians are only hot for a short time, and they have to make the most of it because their going to live a lot longer than the short time their hot. Right now their doing benefits for local musicians who have outlived their popularity or are just too old to perform. Here in St. Louis our local jazz station has gotten involved. Enjoy the music. |
My favorite artist who should have gotten more recognition is "Lorez Alexandria", and this is my favorite version of "Softly As In A Morning Sunrise" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWXimvRssmQ This is the version that resonates with me personally; my only complaint is that it could be longer. Here is another one I like by Lorez. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH3own5sERU Enjoy the music. |
I know you all hate this group and this CD, so spare me your boos, hisses and cries of outrage. I have a question that only The Frogman can answer. It's driving me nuts. At 4:26, just as Marcus Printup finishes his solo, Wynton comes in with one note at 4:26. Is this note just the first note of his solo, or is it a musical thingy/event that has a name? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7eeb1MTkUY Thanks Cheers |