Rok, for better or worse, I read your posts. '
So we can say that there would be no Jazz and also no "European Classical Tradition" without our log beater in Africa. I will agree that Jazz is a eventual result of the first human attempt to make music. That would be about 55,000 years ago. I think that predates Europe, let along the "European Classical Tradition".
If I may ask, does this mean that you think that jazz has no influence from Classical music ?
Or do you mean that had other important influences as well? |
Frogman, jazz can not be properly defined; if something can not be properly defined, how can it be objective? Many jazzmen have objected to the word "Jazz". As far as I am concerned, it only defines the music up until the 70's. Some want to argue whether or not Pat Metheney is a jazz musician, I don't because I like much of his music whatever you call it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUAK02_o9cII like this music regardless what you call it. I find "stereotypical" jazz boring. No I'm not defining jazz, I'm defining me, as you should define you. Enjoy the music. |
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Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it.*****
O-10, I don't even know why you bother. They are so arrogant. They will never understand, why do you waste your time, etc.........
hahahah sound familiar?
Cheers
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Alex:
*****
Everything is conected,and there are so many influences to music, and jazz is not an exception. I dont know why that sound so strange to you, Rok and Orpheus?
For example, if the events around WW2 did not make the largest migration of artists and intellectuals in history, from Europe to US, do you think that American musical culture would be the same today? After all, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Hindemith all went to States, later two taught in universities there.*****
If would be helpful if you would read my posts, and not respond to the straw-men arguments thrown out by The Frogman. I am quite capable of saying what I mean. I have said that all music is a great continuation starting with prehistoric humans.
We just don't buy into the school of thought, that the "European Classical Tradition" is the end all, be all, of human music. It was not Alpha and it sure as hell won't be Omega. Just a bump along the journey.
World War ll:
German and European Classical Music Culture seems to have fared just great since the war. And are you are saying we would not have had folks like: Stravinsky, Bartok,Schoenberg and Hindemith but for the war? If so, we suffered more than I thought as a result of that Damn EUROPEAN war.
Cheers
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***** Amazing music and incredible performance:*****
Just because you say it, don't make it so. I know that may be hard for you to grasp.
***** You’re cherry picking your lists and not accounting for the subjective nature of this silly exercise*****
I just clicked on the first three lists. Why would I cherry pick something, if I am seeking information for myself?
Any list may be subjective, even yours. Unless you know of a list that was handed down on Mt Sinai.
Cheers
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Like all people, musicians have been affected by the political, economic and social events of 20th century.The technological adavnces as well have brought music to larger audience than ever before, besides vastly increasing the range of music available. Can you just imagine the repertoary of recorded music, in oppose to past where one could here only live performed music? As early of 1904 music works have been recorded and radio broadcasts of live or recorded music began to reach large audience during the 1920s. Everything is conected,and there are so many influences to music, and jazz is not an exception. I dont know why that sound so strange to you, Rok and Orpheus? For example, if the events around WW2 did not make the largest migration of artists and intellectuals in history, from Europe to US, do you think that American musical culture would be the same today? After all, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Hindemith all went to States, later two taught in universities there. What about African American composers and performers? William Grant Still and his 'Afro American Symphony' ( from 1931) was the first composition by black composer to be performed by major American symphony orchestra. Its been said that he incorporated spirituals, ragtime and blues in his work. Is he the only one, that was influenced by many things? I doubt. Here is the link. https://youtu.be/4AkltZeVcJE |
Hi O-10,
I'm talking about both. How about we just call it 'musical anthropology', FWIW this is a a' defined' phrase. I guess you didn't know of its existence.
Personally, I can't begin to understand how you can separate the two words when that is exactly what you have been talking about, i.e. the history/developement of jazz. Though I must admit that I have thought myopia attractive at stressful times in my life. KTSS. |
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Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it.
Frogman, can you say "stereotypical", that was the sound of Phil Woods jazz. Did he do anything that was unique? He did his best to imitate "Bird", but so did a lot of other people; that was his claim to fame.
Newbee, are we talking about anthropology or music?
Where is Learsfool? That's all we need to complete the 'wackery'.
Enjoy the music.
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Dude, now you’re really getting silly. First of all, there he is on your own first list at #15; although I (and many others) would place him higher. You’re cherry picking your lists and not accounting for the subjective nature of this silly exercise. He is clearly on most lists of best, greatest, most influential, etc. "Best"? We’ve been down that road before; no? So, by your approach there would be the "best" 10-15 jazz players or composers and everyone else is bogus? C’mon! Still waiting for your informative thoughts re Phil’s arranging skills. As the Count used to say, "One more once!": just because anyone person (you) can’t understand the music does not make it less great in the scheme of things. I know, I know,the great unwashed and all that nonsense 😊 |
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Newbee, I'm what you might call a "regular extra"; saxophone not being a regular instrument in an orchestra, although I have played and recorded on bass clarinet with them as well. Sorry, moment of weakness; I think I can safely say I don't blow my own horn too often this way ☺️. Fantastic orchestra and fantastic concept; conductor-less orchestra. |
Jeez, if I had known about the Grammy Award first I'd probably never have listened to it, let alone recommended it. :-)
But I'm glad I did. Are you a regular member of this group? I think I have most of their recordings which I highly value BTW.
Rok, just in case you want to pass on my recommendation because you don't want to hear Frogman blow his (own) horn, you can listen to Tango on a solo piano in a disc of 'Dances' by Kathryn Stott on Chandos.
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Funny, I search "Best Classical Composers" (not that I needed to) and he comes up in just about every list; and in the top 10-15 every time. Hmmmm, indeed. |
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Rok, FWIW I can hum Stravinski. :-)*****
AAUGH!!!! |
I googled Stravinsky to try and figure out his standing among Classical composers. When the 'BEST' were listed, he didn't make the list (best 10 or 15), but when the 'Most Famous' were listed, there he was. Hmmmmm there is that 20th century hype machine at work.
Cheers |
Interesting questions, Newbee. Pretty well established that "European Jazz" owes mostly to American Jazz. Of course, with its own European flavor throw in; much to the dismay of some purists.
"Shadow Dances": As you say, great Grammy nominated record on DG. As a self-serving note; I play saxophone on it. |
Rok, FWIW I can hum Stravinski. :-)
If you care to hear something less heard by his occasional listeners who only know him from his to Ballets, pick up 'Shadow Dances' by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra Orchestra on DG. His Tango in cut 1 is (for me anyway) worth the price of the disc. Enjoy....
BTW, where/when do you think Jazz, as we know it, diverged from the music of Africa (which became music of the "European Classical Tradition").
When did the music of the Far East diverge from the music of Africa. Or did it split off the music that became the music of European countries. Is there an Asian Jazz?
Did the music of the countries of Europe split off music we now know as 'European Jazz' or did Jazz in Europe evolve from the Jazz which developed in the Americas'.
Almost a racial thing isn't it, we can speculate that Africans were black, that caucasians became white from lack of sun in the North where they migrated, but what I can never figure out is why Asians developed their unique eyes. It's a puzzlement (quasi quote from Fair Lady, I think). Pretty shallow thinking isn't it. |
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but there existed a European Classical music tradition long before any European set foot on African soil. *****
Go back and re-read the article. You missed the historical time it was speaking of.
Cheers |
We always knew The Frogman was an excellent Jazz and Classical musician. We can now add Tap-Dancing to his skill set.
The more I read his response / posts, the more I have to turn to The Book of Job for the strength and inspiration to carry on.
Cheers |
Rok, I realize that this stuff is very difficult for you to grasp, but there existed a European Classical music tradition long before any European set foot on African soil. It can be said, however, that there also would be no jazz without your log beaters; but, you already told us way back that you don't believe that. Try for some consistency; please. As far as Phil goes, as I pointed out to O-10 (I think) recently my words were: "there is USUALLY a reason why........". Now, let's keep things interesting and relevant: I just posted two clips of Phil's writing. Tell us in a way that is informative, why you don't think it is at the highest level of writing and arranging. |
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To say "we are not talking about harmonic concepts, we are talking about jazz" is like saying we are not talking about food, we are talking about gumbo****
No, it means we are talking about the finished or final product.
Cheers |
"Music is found in every known culture, past and present, varying widely between times and places. Since all people of the world, including the most isolated tribal groups, have a form of music, it may be concluded that music is likely to have been present in the ancestral population prior to the dispersal of humans around the world. Consequently, music may have been in existence for at least 55,000 years and the first music may have been invented in Africa and then evolved to become a fundamental constituent of human life."
So we can say that there would be no Jazz and also no "European Classical Tradition" without our log beater in Africa. I will agree that Jazz is a eventual result of the first human attempt to make music. That would be about 55,000 years ago. I think that predates Europe, let along the "European Classical Tradition". Nice try.
*****
Unfortunately, Phil Woods was hugely unrecognized as a composer and arranger. *****
"If they are unknown, not respected or ignored, it's for a very good reason"
The Frogman's First Law of Musicians.
Cheers
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****The most interesting thing about this music is that the composer considered it Jazz. This begs the question, where did he get his concept of Jazz? Not from Pops I would wager. This says a lot about what we talk about often on this thread i.e. "what is, and what is not Jazz. I am absolutely sure, that as far as he was concerned, the music qualified as Jazz by some definition to which he had been exposed / taught .**** You would, of course, be incorrect about this; and the reason I bother responding to this is that there is much truly interesting stuff that would be overlooked and misinformed if there were no response. There is a gulf of difference between being influenced by, having elements of, and "considering it jazz". Dig deeper and read about the influence of jazz on Classical composers (Shostakovich, Milhaud, Copland, Stravinsky, Ravel and others) at the beginning of 20th Century and you will see that an absolutist and protectionist attitude does not apply. These composers had no illusion that their music was jazz, but used elements of it in their music; and did this, if anything, as an homage to the "new" art form. This goes to the issues being discussed here recently and which are not understood: how does a music come about?, the evolution of the music, influences on styles, etc. Very little of this happens in a vacuum. My earlier comment in response to yours about how Classical composers "steal" from jazz was to point out that there would be no jazz as we know it today were it not for the harmonic concepts of the European Classical music tradition. I know some will bristle at this notion; but it is absolutely true. Again, nothing happens in a vacuum; and, as always, one has to have a notion about what harmony is all about and its role in jazz to appreciate this idea. To say "we are not talking about harmonic concepts, we are talking about jazz" is like saying we are not talking about food, we are talking about gumbo. Btw, one could point to as many 20th Century jazz composers who "stole" from Classical composers as the other way around. Which brings me to this: I point this out, not to personalize matters, but because if explains (to me) where some of these notions (and ultimate disagreements) come from. I always find your choice of words very telling: you refer to this interactive relationship between genres and composers as "stealing", or that the accurate observation that jazz composers studied the work of Classical composers as "wishfull thinking". The composers themselves (any genre) did not hold these attitudes and were much more inclusive. These composers (any genre) were/are musical giants with giant intellects and to suggest that they did not have a more fair and evenhanded grasp of all this is ridiculous. Some fun and interesting reading: http://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/2004/01/great-encounters-1-when-charlie-parker-played-for-igor-stra...http://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2013/05/26/186486269/why-jazz-musicians-love-the-rite-o... |
I'm sure there are plenty of recordings of African drum beating, but if you have have a penchant for vinyl recordings seek out "Professor Johnson's Amazing Sound Show" on Reference Recordings I believe. It has some 'amazing' displays of solo African Drumming'. Turn up the volume, bring down the house! Love it. This is really exciting, primitive, stuff , especially for us knuckle draggers. |
Mary Lou Williams:
Mary Lou is as great today as she was yesterday. I think you have been smitten. :)
Cheers |
*****I think. That's what makes much of his music so humable.*****
I agree. Being to able to hum, and the desire to hum, is a sure indication of music that has reached people.
I don't think folks hum Stravinsky. :)
Cheers
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'We'd like to have you all join in with us on this one, and help us find the groove, by patting your feet, or popping your fingers, or clapping your hands, or shaking your heads, or shaking whatever else you want to shake... while we do a little thing we call "Filthy McNasty".
https://youtu.be/TTYtZa2XrDQ |
Rok, Re Beethoven's connection to my African log beater - think 'rhythm'. Ludwig really understood the use of rhythm. It dominates his music - its what really grabs your attention, especially in his 5th, 7th, and 9th, in particular, I think. That's what makes much of his music so humable.
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Rok, there is no way I'm going to respond to anything, the "wire worshipers" utter. If I had not seen your post, I wouldn't be responding today; as a matter of fact, this post is not in response to anything. Mary Lou Williams was one of the greatest musicians ever. She had almost no formal training; at age 3 she picked out a melody while sitting on her mothers lap. She began earning money at the age of 6, when she was known as "The little piano girl" Duke Ellington said,"Mary Lou Williams is perpetually contemporary, her music retains and maintains a standard of quality that is timeless. She is like soul on soul". I could write a book about Mary Lou's qualities as a jazz musician, but I would rather present some of her music and let you be the judge. Yesterday, I received her CD, "Black Christ Of The Andes", and it's as awesome as any jazz written today; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNd-X2uMM1k What is your opinion of this timeless music. Enjoy the music. |
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Where does Rok think that the concepts of harmony in jazz came from if not from the European "Classical" tradition? *****
We are not talking about harmonic concepts, we are talking about Jazz. Unless you are saying "harmonic Concepts" is the definition of Jazz.
BTW, I don't Alex agrees with you as much as you think.
Welcome back.
Cheers |
Shostakovitch Jazz Suites:
I posted this a few weeks ago. The most interesting thing about this music is that the composer considered it Jazz. This begs the question, where did he get his concept of Jazz? Not from Pops I would wager. This says a lot about what we talk about often on this thread i.e. "what is, and what is not Jazz.
I am absolutely sure, that as far as he was concerned, the music qualified as Jazz by some definition to which he had been exposed / taught .
The guy also turned against other composers in order to please Stalin. Many of his peers went to the gulag, or the wall.
Cheers
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*****
Composers and performers of all styles of music have been quoting each other's music and style since a man in Africa started beating a log with a stick. :-)*****
This most likely is very true. Keeping in mind that in order to quote something, you have to have heard it. In fact I posted something very similar to this a while back.
If you want to say all music has a common source,(Humans) I have no problem with that. But humans have been around a lot longer than the 'European classical tradition'.
But, I have never heard anyone say that Beethoven's Ninth can be traced back to that log being struck. But I am sure folks in some circles will say that's where 'Satin Doll' originated. Man on a mission.
Cheers |
Frogman, Perhaps Rok was thinking about Shostakovitch when he said 20th century classical composers stole from jazz. Actually I think his attempts to compose 'jazz' might be more accurate, especially his jazz suites, which while pleasant enough don't really float my boat. I'm not aware of other quotes from 'jazz' in his music but I'd be surprised if they don't exist. Composers and performers of all styles of music have been quoting each other's music and style since a man in Africa started beating a log with a stick. :-) |
Alex, you have made some extremely thoughtful and open-minded posts recently. You addressed many of the issues which have been the source of contention on this thread, and I find it impressive that you did it while, at the same time, acknowledging your personal preferences and the possibility of new understanding. I promised you a response to a couple of your thought provoking comments: ****and why they value the idea behind the music more than its aestetchics (correct me if I am wrong)**** The overall premise of your entire comment is entirely fair and correct. However, I will correct you on this one piece of it. It is not that we value the "idea" more than the "aesthetics". This would presume that we value the aesthetics of more modern styles of jazz less than that of the more traditional styles; speaking for myself, I do not. The best explanation can be found in a recent comment by Newbee, the idea that ****musicians don’t have a chronological anchor**** What I believe Newbee means and which is entirely correct is that, as has been often said, there are only two kinds of music, good and bad. The place of any given music in the chronological landscape (style) is not important; whether it is composed/performed with integrity and at a high level of craft is. In other words, most musicians find aesthetic value in Benny Goodman’s Sextet as they do Bird, Miles or in Brad Mehldau. To dismiss one or the other as "soulless" or "too intellectual" says much more about the listener than it says about the music. ****Also, I think, by learning and later perhaps knowing or recognising ’their point’ can open the whole new world in appreciating the music that now stays beyond our understanding.**** EXACTLY! And the point that I’ve tried to make countless times and to which there has been much resistance. No one has ever suggested that there is anything wrong with having a preferred style; we all do. To not have a "chronological anchor" does not mean that the chronology should be ignored; quite the opposite. To appreciate and understand the chronology is the key to understanding the evolution of the music, the inevitability of the changing styles and why and how it got to where it’s today. As has also often been said: Art reflects the times; whether we like what it’s says or not is a separate matter. All this leads to something that I feel needs to be cleared up re a comment made by Rok in response to my comment that "musicians are teachers by nature". I will speak for myself; but I think that I can speak for Learsfool also. We never set out to "teach" anyone. Like everyone else, from the start of my participation on this thread I wanted to share music and discuss topics that may come up. The problem always arises when disagreement that is backed by verifiable information becomes a major bone of contention and rancor ensues. There has been just as much vehement "disagreement" by those in the "subjective" camp as there has been by those in the "objective" camp. Yet, when the objectivist offers explanations backed by verifiable data all hell breaks loose. Seems to me that this is simply a way to shut up the dissenting voice. The only alternative then would become to not have dialogue at all; an unfortunate situation in my view. An exchange between Acman3 and Rok is a good example: ** Study the origins of Bebop, then come back. They were studying everyday what the classical composers of their time were doing.***** This is what is called ’wishful thinking’ . (1) Name me some classical music that you can point to and say, "this is the origin of be-bop". If anything, 20th century Classical Composers stole from Jazz.**** Well, what to do if there is to be dialogue about this? One could ignore the fact that there is truth to what Acman3 is saying and leave the matter in the realm of "opinion". Or, one can ask the question: Where does Rok think that the concepts of harmony in jazz came from if not from the European "Classical" tradition? (teach?😁) Of course, there has to be at least a minimal understanding of what harmony is if this is to make sene. If one ignores the facts then it becomes easy to fit all that one WANTS music to be into our own personal agenda for it. Anyway, Alex, please continue posting thoughtful comments and I am glad you are participating. One of my very favorite lesser known tenor players, and one of those sessions that one gets the feeling that all the stars aligned. Blue Mitchell is absolutely brilliant on this record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLB2C2CCC049C7989B&v=SRFhsMvWKmM |
Thanks for the lineup.
This year is the 50th year, of the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra . Thad left in 1978 and the Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra lasted until Mel Lewis's death in 1990. They changed their name to the Vangard Jazz Orchestra . Still going strong.
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Mel Lewis (d), Jim McNeely (p), John Lockwood (b)
saxes, left to right:
Joe Lovano, Kenny Garrett, Dick Oats, Gary Prebeck, Gary Smulyan
bones:
Earl McYntire, Doug Purviance, John Mosca, ? (don't recognize),
french horn:
Barbara
trumpets:
Tom Harrell, Earl Gardner, Joe Mosello, John Marshall (I think?)
I agree, nice solo by Kenny Garrett. Band sounds great. Thanks.
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See if you can locate the various greats from this band. Nice solo by Kenny Garrett. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwR6jeSnE8I Rok, I am still trying to get through the Bernard Perdie CD. I have Soul to Jazz II. Will report back once complete. |
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Hi O-10 - thanks for the response, which again is quite good, as far as it goes. The problem is, as Alex tried to point out, it doesn't really go far enough. As he says, you have dismissed many things without explanation that others have written on this board, because they don't fit in with your perceptions. Sometimes, this is perfectly fine, as when we are speaking of personal taste, something truly subjective. But other times, what is being discussed is something objective, but which you do not understand - so you say that it must really be subjective. That's where the problem is, in a nutshell. You do not really know the subject, so you sometimes cannot tell whether something is objective or subjective. It is clearly incorrect to dismiss anything you do not understand and label it subjective, which is basically what you have done. Those who are knowledgeable on the particular subject see this immediately, but you do not and cannot. For instance, take your "nuts and bolts" comment in one of your later posts. You said "In regard to the nuts and bolts, those who regard such in their "jazz" music, make it quite clear, because some of their preferences sound like it." This makes absolutely no real sense - you know nothing of the "nuts and bolts", and do not want to. Fine - this much you understand. Problem is, what you do not understand is that your perception of the "nuts and bolts" is false - it is obvious to anyone who does know even a little about the "nuts and bolts" that you have absolutely no idea of what effect they have (or have had) on anyone's playing, or the music they make, or the sound they make; yet you speak as if you can tell how someone's preferences sound in reference to that. This is just one example. |
Rok, answer to your first question. I used Jarret Evans comparation as metaphore. Sometimes I meet people who 'listen jazz' and have lots of Ecm records, which is ok. But its been known to happen that those same people often have very strong opinions about artistic value of some performer, or about that music and its aesthetcs (which again is nothing wrong per se) but when I discover that their knowledge is limited to a very narrow time frame (usually the more recent one) I cant consider their opinion as a worthy, but just as expression of their taste. I guess that one cant play (or listen) jazz if does not know 'Body and soul'. Again, I used that line because here some 'new' music has been under heavy criticism, but the person (Frogman) who posted some of it, knows very well even the 'old' stuff and we cant play that card (limited knowledge) when he is keen to open some new windows. Its funny that I am acting as advocate to that 'new stuff' when in fact I am on constant search for long forgotten music and performers, but I am curios and I belleive that role of individual is to choose a dialectic method if we want to 'discover the truth'. Speaking of curiosty, I noticed that everyone likes Miles and Coltrane, up to a point. (Miles, for me, Prestige years and couple albums after) What if they would try to pursue some of you (us) that their later music has 'soul and beauty' as equal to their earlier work? Or that perhaps, they could not be tied to that simpler form of expressions? IMHO there are lot of intersting questions that jazz afc.could or should ask if they want to have better perspective on the subject, and we should welcome discussions, and not insist on uniform opinion or taste. As for your second question, I cant open those you tube clips. Maybe you could find some another? I will gladly share my thoughts . In the meantime here is one european artist (belgian, as inspector Poirot) Francy Boland (born 1929.) 'Playing with trio' from 1967. https://youtu.be/QyrARKhzsPghttps://youtu.be/ctL6coRgW8Ahttps://youtu.be/C4oCnGqZKg8 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn0LYrbQc_0 Sorry I was comparing the trio's as a whole, and mainly Evans to Werner. My bad! Forgot the initial point was the bass player. Marc Johnson played with Bill Evans from 1978 until his death. |
Acman, in your first post you stated this was a bassist that had attracted your attention, and I was primarily comparing the two bassist. As you noted, the two piano players are quite different. You said that was Bill Evans bass player, when Scott Lafaro was Bill Evans bass player. Was that Bill Evans bass player at another time?
Was there anything in particular that I missed about that bassist?
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O-10, other than they are playing a Bill Evan's tune, and Bill Evan's bass player is on bass, I don't think they sound much alike.
Mr. Evans has a soft touch and quite a different way of playing from Mr. Werner. Werner actually strikes his keys when they are bad. Evans always tries to spoil his keys with timeouts.
I do think they both would agree, less is more. |
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Anything but that! Please don't take away my aficionado card.
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