Alex, don't change your romantic perspective on the Blue Note label. It was founded as a true labor of love and, as you know, produced some of the greatest music ever. I am always mystified by what it is about human nature that causes some to be so cynical and see only the negative in certain things, even the music they claim to love. Great reading about Alfred Lion that clearly shows he was a jazz lover and treated his musicians well: http://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=112 |
*****
Musicians were supplied with alcoholic refreshments, and recorded in the early hours of the morning after their evening's work in clubs and bars had finished. The label soon became known for treating musicians uncommonly well - setting up recording sessions at congenial times, and allowing the artists to be involved in all aspects of the record's production.******
Seems like they got everything except money. Esp money commensurate with their importance and their contributions to the business. I guess the alcohol was considered adequate reimbursement.
Reminds me of Chess records in Chicago. The Blues label. Also owned by some refugee from Europe. He paid his artist in Cadillac automobiles. WTF!!! Haven't these people heard of Money, and Royalties?
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Kindly explain to me how this goes counter to my contention that the founder Lion was a jazz lover. *****
Never said he was not a Jazz lover, and the article never said he was. It said he was exposed to it in Berlin. My contention is that they saw an opportunity, an opening, a market that was under served, and they took advantage of the situation. Nothing personal, just business.
Cheers |
From the very Wiki article you site:
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Lion first heard jazz as a young boy in Berlin. He settled in New York in 1937, and shortly after the first From Spirituals to Swing concert, recorded pianists Albert Ammons and Meade Lux Lewis in 1939 during a one-day session in a rented studio. The Blue Note label initially consisted of Lion and Max Margulis, a communist writer who funded the project. The label's first releases were traditional "hot" jazz and boogie woogie, and the label's first hit was a performance of "Summertime" by soprano saxophonist Sidney Bechet, which Bechet had been unable to record for the established companies. Musicians were supplied with alcoholic refreshments, and recorded in the early hours of the morning after their evening's work in clubs and bars had finished. The label soon became known for treating musicians uncommonly well - setting up recording sessions at congenial times, and allowing the artists to be involved in all aspects of the record's production.
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Kindly explain to me how this goes counter to my contention that the founder Lion was a jazz lover. Moreover, that, at least this particular label (BN), treated their musicians well. So, not only does jazz need "saving" now, but it needed saving back then. I get it 🙄 |
I always thought they just filled a niche that no one else was interested in filling. After reading this wiki thing, I see I am right. If other established labels had been willing to record Jazz, there may have never been a BN. Of course all this was brought about due to 'social conditions' and 'race' music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Note_RecordsThe article says Lion was drafted in 1941 for two years. That would mean he was discharged in the middle of the war. WTF? There no easier way to make money than having an entire market to yourself. I wonder why we always think BN was run by Jazz lovers, but don't think DG was run by Classical lovers. At least I never did. Of course they are all now part of faceless multinationals. O-10: Aficionados of the world, UNITE!! You have nothing to lose but your LPs. Cheers |
As is usually the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Heads of jazz record labels tend to indeed be jazz lovers. Why else would someone start a jazz record label? Plenty of better and easier ways for entrepreneurs to make money. I don't know if they love money more than the music, but I do know that to run a viable business of any kind one has to make money; otherwise, you don't help anyone.
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Being a musician does not make you do drugs, nor does being a human being, but I would never try to take advantage of a person who's as low as he can go. Maybe society will change it's attitude about drugs now that it's not just "jazz" musicians. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TgqWbfga7oAfter looking at that, what's your attitude now. |
Junkies:
Being a musician does not make you do drugs, or give you the 'right' to be an addict. There were thousands of men going to work everyday at jobs all over NY, and the country for that matter, who did not do drugs.
Musicians have a talent few people have, if they can not see that, and be thankful and make the most of that, then shame on them. Save your pity for the innocent people close to them that really suffered.
I think the OP is addicted to Kool Aid.
Cheers
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O-10, yes, a flat fee was often the case for players without a lot of clout. Some players were "taken advantage of"; some let themselves be taken advantage of.
****they seem to prefer "junkys"****.
Sorry, O-10, but that has got to be one of the most cynical comments. Junkies tend to not show up to jobs on time; studio time is very expensive. |
One story that circulated on Agon was that Grant Green would come to Blue Note with his 'substandard' junky music wanting them to record it. Grant Green didn't make substandard music even before he became a professional, and was just playing for the joy of playing and being heard.
I let the circulater know what I thought about him. He might just crawl out from under his rock and be heard since he knows I'm talking about him.
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Rok, I knew you would take that attitude, after all BN, did nothing illegal. But now almost every business is a predator, and you're the prey. Those laws on the books that protected you, are no longer there; that's because "We Don't need no stinking regulations", they ruin business.
No, I'm not getting on my soap box today, since we all have PC's, if you want to know what's going on, you can find out just like I did. Once upon a time you could get legal help when you got screwed by big business, but now all you can do is reach for a crying towel.
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*****
players deserving more recognition; one of the exceptions to my belief that "there is usually a reason why". It is important to remember that record labels, even great and art-sensitive ones like BN, are a business.*****
That sums it up. First there is always a reason why, good or bad, deserved or not, but there is a reason.
All these labels were / are in business to make money. Do not assume that the decision makers at BN loved Jazz. They may have, but they loved making money more. Business people don't always love or even care about the product that they sell.
For example, you'd be hard pressed to find an automobile aficionado among car dealers and salesmen. It's just a product. We may see the MBs and BMWs as wonderful feats of automotive engineering, but they could be washing machines as far as the average dealer is concerned. The bottom line is all that concerns them.
The owners at BN and other labels, did not see the players as we saw / see them.
Cheers |
Miles Davis should have held a business clinic, they rarely screwed him. Did he ever record for Blue Note? Miles wasn't a junky for that long, he was one of those able to quit.
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Frogman, There are things in that story consistent with other musicians; like music not being released until their "dead", they seem to prefer "junkys" who they could pay a flat "peanut" sum for a record, and not pay royalties. For some reason or another, I didn't know about Grant Greens best work, which were his early Blue Note recordings. That might have been my fault, but I don't have an answer.
For a fact I know about them paying someone a flat fee. Of course that was his fault, but that's the way they liked to do business; with people who are easily taken advantage of; oh I forgot "That's Business".
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You are wise to not draw any conclusions from one article, Alex. I would preface my comments (opinions) by pointing out that it was I who first mentioned Tina Brooks on this thread way back when, and then again more recently as one of the players deserving more recognition; one of the exceptions to my belief that "there is usually a reason why". It is important to remember that record labels, even great and art-sensitive ones like BN, are a business. As a business they have to consider things like whether there is room in their catalogue for one more hard-bop tenor player. All sentimentality and opinion of the article's author aside, as good as he was, Tina Brooks was not the unique and influential voice that (of the other mentioned tenor players) Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson was; or Lee Morgan for that matter. I put him in the same broad stylistic "shelf" as Hank Mobley; but, not quite on the same level imo. And even if he was arguably on the same level as Mobley, they already had Mobley. IMO, as far as unique and influential voices go, if Shorter and Henderson are level A+ players and Mobley an A, Tina Brooks was an A- or B+. Obviously just my opinion, but that is the kind of thing that labels and producers have to consider. Add to that the insinuated personality issues and it's possible to see why things went the way they did for Brooks. A shame, but I don't believe, based on what I know of the story that there is anything sinister involved. Why would they release his work decades later? Different economic and artistic climate and fewer big jazz record labels than decades earlier. Great player. |
I would not draw any conclusions based only on one article, but I must admit that story sounds sinister. If it happens to be truth, it might change my romantic perspective about the label. Would like to hear more facts, if someone knows, or opinions at least, about the subject |
Alex, I have Mosaic MR4-106, The Complete Blue Note Tina Brooks Quintets, it consists of 4 LP's and two booklets. Although there are many good cuts, my favorites are "Star Eyes" and "Stranger In Paradise"; Tina captures the beauty in these tunes far better than most versions I've heard, and considering all the versions of these tunes I've heard; that's saying a lot.
I see that it's not a coincident that Blue Note had all the junkey musicians, and that story tells why. "The better to exploit you my dear". It's like finding a man in the gutter, pouring gasoline over him and striking a match.
Enjoy the music.
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Excellent! Will check him out. Thank you.
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Too many to lists, but will mention one particular artist that shamelessly was over looked, and neglected.
Frank Hewitt, and here are 6 of his albums:
We Loved You
Not Afraid to Live
Four Hundred Saturdays
Fresh from The Cooler
Out Of The Clear Black Sky
Salience.
His style definitely in the school of Bud Powell, another favorite of mine. Some backgrounds on this beautiful artist if you are interested:
"In New York City, the cabaret laws enacted in 1926 during Prohibition strictly forbade the gathering of more than three musicians and forbade the use of brass or percussion instruments, except in those few nightclubs that were specially licensed and regulated by the city. The laws were believed by many to be in part instruments for preventing the congregation of black people, and the mixing of races. Jazz was held as a culprit, a source of moral decadence, and the cabaret laws afforded the city the means to zone jazz into virtual extinction. The laws persisted on the books until 1988 when they were overturned on the grounds that they violated the constitutional right to free speech, as famously argued by Paul Chevigny. In the aftermath, myriad small jazz clubs flourished in a renaissance of jazz in New York. Smalls was notable among them.
Smalls, and its successor in the present day, Fat Cat, were the brainchildren of quixotic jazz-lover Mitch Borden, who wanted to build a club that would serve the needs of jazz musicians and enthusiasts. Artists of special merit were featured regularly, receiving the rare opportunity to develop their repertoires and styles to maturity. During the day, musicians would come to Smalls to rehearse, some even sleeping there when they couldn't find housing. Each night, music flowed until dawn -- and the price was right. As word spread, Smalls developed into the social hub of the NY jazz scene. A steady stream of musicians from around the world came to listen and to congregate in its fabled back room, which hosted long listening sessions, and a perpetual conversation about music and life. We who were involved with Smalls on a week-to-week basis formed a close-knit community, bearing witness to one-another's lives, loves, and sometimes deaths. We are the "we" in the title of this record, and we count ourselves fortunate to have had Frank working and living amongst us.
Frank Burton Hewitt was born in Queens, NY on October 23rd, 1935, and grew up in Sugar Hill, Harlem. His mother, a church pianist, exposed Frank to piano music and started him on lessons early in childhood. Over the course of ten years of classical study, he developed into a capable pianist. He attended the High School of Needle Trades, originally intending to become a tailor, but as a teenager he was increasingly drawn to the jazz piano. One night, while washing dishes for a church social at his mother's apartment, he heard Charlie Parker's "Dewey Square" on the record player. After all had gone home, he played it over and over again, ever more intrigued by its dark, subtle beauty, and the mystery of its melodic lines. This, he felt, was the kind of music he wanted to explore. Over time he met up with Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk, and Elmo Hope, whom he would later count as his greatest influences. By his early twenties, Frank was playing often as a sideman on the New York scene, appearing with such notables as Billie Holiday, Dinah Washington, John Coltrane, Howard McGhee, Cecil Payne, and many others. In 1961, he performed in The Living Theater's groundbreaking production of "The Connection." Over the years, he held down the piano bench at countless sessions, appearing often at Barry Harris' jazz workshops, at the University of the Streets, and at the Jazz Vespers at St. Peter's Church. He was also often heard accompanying the late underground saxophone legend Clarence "C" Sharpe, himself a direct influence upon many from the Smalls community, and the subject of a future Smalls Records project.
Frank was the featured artist at Smalls, appearing two or three times weekly for nine years running. During that time, he was heard by tens of thousands of Smalls fans, among them numerous jazz pianists from around the world who came to listen and learn. The history of jazz is often mistaken as the history of jazz recordings; but in truth, the history of the music is constituted by sessions, night after night, only a few of which are ever recorded. In a club like Smalls, where Frank was featured weekly, we had the unique opportunity to experience the long process of coming to appreciate the depth and breadth of his music, its expressive force, and its melodic and harmonic ingenuity. We cannot afford you the same experience on records. But we feel these recorded performances attain the highest level of achievement, and that repeated listening will yield continual rewards.
The two sessions highlighted here show Frank in two distinctly different moods, affording the listener new to Frank's music some appreciation for his expressive range. Frank is accompanied throughout by his long-standing bassist Ari Roland. They are joined on one session by veteran drummer Jimmy Lovelace, and on the other, by up-and-coming drummer Danny Rosenfeld. These two groups represent Frank's two working trios from Smalls. The level of interplay in these trios is very high, developed over many years together on the bandstand.
The sessions were run in the manner of a live performance and recorded and mixed live using no isolation. [We hope the listener will excuse the occasionally uneven quality of these recording experiments in lieu of their historical importance.] Frank never called his tunes ahead of time on these sessions, preferring to let his mood dictate the selection. Take special note of Frank's improvised introductions to each tune. Frank felt that the verse was an important part of a composition, and the introductions are original verses, which establish a thematic basis for subsequent improvisation. The thematic development in Frank's improvisations is ingenious, so much so that new listeners often underestimate him. We had the unfair advantage of hearing him night after night, which helped to settle all questions over time. Frank's ingenuity was all in the service of the poetic spirit, which is what makes the experience of listening to him such a complete one in the end.
Though Frank was the master musician in our midst, the major record labels overlooked him in their incessant quest for young, photogenic, crossover musicians. The crass negligence of the major labels gave rise to the moral imperative to create a record label for the Smalls community to ensure that Frank Hewitt, and jazz artists like him, would not be neglected in recorded history. We hoped to give Frank a few years in the sun, but tragically, he died on September 5th, 2002 before this record could be released. We'll miss you Frank."
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Maybe the piano player WANTED to teach. Not everyone is cut out to be a performer; a LOT of pressure. Maybe the organ player, had he gone to school, would have learned the importance of discipline; and, that may have kept him away from the bottle. Just maybe. |
Frogman, that guy on the subway "gravely voice" probably a wino and heavy smoker. He made me think about a guy I knew who was a St. Louis celebrity for a few minutes; he could really cook on the organ, and packed the house wherever he played, but he couldn't stay away from the wine bottle. You know the rest.
My stories are beginning to tie together; he's the same guy who learned music by watching my best friend's brother practice for gaining admission to Julliard. He could play on the piano, every thing he heard that brother had practiced.
Friends brother got a degree, and was very successful teaching music, but never played as a musician. The guy who watched him practice was a successful musician until he became a wino; life is weird ain't it.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, that's the first "Nature Boy" I heard, and I've been in love with the tune every since.
That guy on the subway knows it's about whatever works.
Enjoy the music.
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I want to thank you Alex for a very important story. I'll get back to you after I've had a chance to read and digest it.
Enjoy the music.
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Have you ever wonder why some of the great albums were not published when they were recorded, but years or decades later, sometimes even when the original artists were already dead? Intersting article on that subject, via perspective of Tina Brooks. http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~chambers/tinabrooks.html |
Learsfool, that was my attempt at humor. I've never heard of cool classical music. I really meant any classical music you like. Since I have jazz by Andre Previn, I tried to find some classical music by him, but this is all I found. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwEuR2TtW5cMaybe you could find some classical music by him and paste it so we can hear it. Or any classical you like best. Enjoy the music. |
Hi Orpheus - I just saw your question about what classical music would be cool. I have been sitting here for fifteen minutes trying to decide how to respond. This is actually a difficult question, as I have absolutely no idea what you would think is cool. I could give you a couple of recommendations of things I like, but if you didn't like them, then you might not respond well to further suggestion.
It would be better if you explored for yourself at first. The problem becomes then, where do you start? There are lots of different ways to approach that, too. One approach might be - what is your favorite instrument(s)? When you listen to jazz, do you like the pianists the best? Then maybe try some solo classical piano music, or some piano concertos. If you like the trumpet, then maybe find a recording of some trumpet concertos. Do you like the vocalists? Then pick either opera (again so many different places to start), or maybe some art songs, by say Schubert. If you went this route, then you are at least starting with something at least somewhat familiar, the instrument being featured.
Another way to approach it would be by picking a composer to start with, and listening to several different types of pieces by that composer. Again, there are many different places to start here, and I have no idea which composers or what era of music you might like the best - and by the way, that's another way to start - pick an era (Medieval/Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, etc.) and listen to several different works by different composers in that era.
I hope this is somewhat helpful. If anything above strikes your fancy, then maybe we could get more specific with recommendations. |
Range, Rok, range! 😔 As always, "there’s only two kinds of music.....(you know the rest). Actually, being the daughter of Johnny Copeland (Texas) means that she’s probably more from Texas than anything else; as far as her music genes go, anyway. Story that I think you’ll appreciate: So, I’m riding the subway last night on my way home after a job and, as often happens here in NYC, this alto saxophone player gets on the train and starts to play. I’ve seen/heard him about half a dozen times before on my train; late middle age, not quite down and out, real character. He plays the same tune EVERYTIME; Nat Cole’s "Nature Boy". The guy can sort of play; not too bad as is often the case and as one would expect on the subway. But, he plays the same wrong note everytime and it’s been driving me crazy. If you know the tune and the lyric it’s where it goes: "There was a boy, a very strange, enchanted boy. They say he wandered very far, very far..." Well, the note on the first "far" is supposed to be a half step below the note before it on (ve)"ry". It’s almost like a melodic hook and is one of the tune’s most identifiable melodic traits. Well, this guy plays it a whole step lower which sounds clearly wrong. When he finished playing one chorus of the tune he went up and down the crowded subway car with his hat in his outstretched hand. I always give him a few bucks and bite my tongue. This time, as I hand him a five, I said "it sounds really good, but you know you’re playing a wrong note". He responds in a funky gravelly voice: "yeah man, I know, its supposed to be a half step. You know, I started to play that tune before I learned to read music and get me my books and I learned it with that wrong note. The weird thing is that when I play it with the wrong note I make more money than when I play it with the right note". Cracked me (and others on the train) up. http://youtu.be/Iq0XJCJ1Srw |
I like Marcia Ball- she can really swing as well. |
Marcia Ball: Not everyone can sing the blues. It helps a lot if you have lived the Blues.
Paul Desmond & Dry martini:
Mission accomplished.
The Frogman Posting Shemekia Copeland:
WTF!!! oops She's from NYC. Never Mind.
.
Cheers |
Spring will be here soon. What are your fave Jazz albums/cds to kick off
the new season? Happy Listening! |
Frogman; I reported what I knew about, and I only knew about his practice habits for that one Summer. If I said he never practiced, I was reporting what I saw. Brubeck: I still have this memory of him coming up that long winding road to the top of the hill where the shrine amphitheater is, in a long limousine (is there any other kind). He was a distinguished looking gentleman with white hair, as opposed to the pictures I'm accustomed to seeing on albums (much younger) I don't recall any other musicians, just him on solo piano. Since the troupe of modern dancers, danced to the music, it certainly wasn't the jazz we're familiar with, or maybe it wasn't even jazz; Mr. Brubeck has a wide repertoire. Paul Desmond: A disc jockey who came on at midnight, used Desmond's "Desmond Blue" for his intro tune, and I was cruisin with my girl at about that time; consequently, even today, I love "Desmond Blue", I even love the album cover; Paul Desmond has the most romantic tone of all the saxes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT5zGYaUN_QI will in the future make every effort to prevent misinterpretation. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, to quote Rok himself in the Brubeck thread: ****First, this is not an argument. It’s a discussion. **** A very good discussion in that thread, btw; of the kind that, frankly, I wish we had more of here. To quote Rok again (imagine that ☺️), "words matter". Let’s try and not be so quick to blame others for misinterpreting what we write. I think it would be far more productive if we tried to be clear about with what we write so that we don’t have to keep going back to the same tired issues like that of your musician friend who supposedly didn’t practice. Again? Yikes! 😬 re Brubeck: I love Brubeck. Of course it’s jazz and it is obviously good jazz. I love Paul Desmond even more. But it’s a different kind of jazz that is more genteel and SEEMINGLY (!!!!) more disciplined and "controlled" than the jazz represented by...let’s, for lack of a better term, refer to it as "Blue Note" jazz. This goes to some of what is at the root of some of the disagreements here about jazz and segues nicely (I think! Coffee hasn’t kicked in yet this morning....sorry) to the Marcia Ball clips: O-10, your description of Ball and her possible influences is spot on; in answer to your question, I think you gave an excellent description of her music. The problem for me is that she, while she is clearly having fun and is a good singer, is just too....dare I say it?.... white, for that music; not enough grease in her singing (her tenor player has some grease ’though).. Grease: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=65nDprifGekOne of my all time favorite Jazz quotes: When asked how he got that amazing sound on the alto, Paul Desmond said: "I try and sound like a dry martini". Polyunsaturated: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ak2aOWiYUo |
Brubeck and the 2012 posts:
I am surprised I am / was so consistent. Would not change a word.
Thanks. I enjoyed reading all that.
Cheers |
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Any Coltrane, is good Coltrane.
Get all of his boxed sets. Happy Listening!
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Frogman;
This debate boils down to one Letter of the alphabet in one sentence, not Wes Phillip's life history, and Rok spelled that out. This is the same as the last debate that revolved around 1 individual who did not practice for 1 summer when he was performing three times a week.
Serena Williams lost an early round match in Australia after coming off an illness that prevented her from playing in tournaments. When asked about that loss, she said she practiced hard and prepared for the match, but that's not the same as tournament competition. The only thing that can prepare you for that, is playing matches.
My friend was playing his instrument before he started school, similar to Mary Lou Williams; performing in front of a live audience is what he needed, not practice. Just as Serena Williams could only get tournament tough by competing in tournaments, he needed the live audience; that was his competition play, especially since this was new music. You and Learsfool took what I said, to mean that I said no jazz musician need ever practice.
What I said in regard to making a fire in the fire place was in jest, how else could I have had a September 97, magazine in my possession. Since I have many more before and after that date; evidently I consider the magazine worthy of better things than starting fires.
Have you ever heard the expression of "Making a mountain out of a molehill"?
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I doubt it; a great instrument always helps. This is one of those situations where, in my opinion, it’s important to understand the context. I am not going to defend Stereophile; it is an audiophile magazine and we are concerned about music first. Having said that, I have read some record reviews in that magazine that consider the music to a significant degree; iow, I personally would not be too quick to bash them. If insightful opinions about music is what I am looking for there’s much better sources out there.
Still, I know Wes Phillips from the days when he was a salesman at the original "Stereo Exchange" in NYC and and started writing for TAS, and I can tell you that the guy has ears and is an avid music lover and live concert goer. I cannot think of too many audiophiles (or even music lovers) who can name members of the NY Phil and is into jazz more so than most. That they credited the tune to the wrong composer is not good; but, again, "JazzTimes" probably wouldn't have. In keeping with the fact that he wrote for an audiophile mag, the comments about "Moanin" all have to do with "sound" and less about performance which was the reason I surmised he was talking about the piano: "rich trumpet tone", "power of the drums", "ambience", "decay", all audio-speak. |
Maybe if he had a"stellar" piano, the tune would not have turned out nearly as good. This music conveys the thought, and emotions behind the music better than any I've ever heard. Without the words, Bobby Timmons music tells a complete story; maybe a stellar piano would not have communicated the helplessness as well.
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*****
Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano*****
If he was speaking of his playing, he would not have included the letter 'a' in the sentence. He would simply have said "he was playing less than stellar piano".
He was speaking of the piano itself.
Cheers |
Frogman, This is the September 97, issue; Wes Phillips is the reviewer, and the context is in regard to the music, not the instrument.
On my first post, that paragraph is from the magazine; they gave "Moanin" to Benny Golson.
Preceding this sentence, they spoke of Morgan's rich tone. "It sounds as though Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano, but the power of Blakey's drums, which drive the show, is especially well rendered- with lots of room sound and natural decay."
Since he spoke of "Morgan's rich tone", before "stellar piano" and the power of Blakey's drums, after "stellar piano". We clearly have the musicians performance before and after "stellar piano"; therefore it's impossible for me to assume that's in reference to an out of tune piano, although it's possible.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10, you could well be correct about what that reviewer meant, after all it's impossible to tell from a couple of words taken out of context, regardless of what I hear re the instrument. I would be very interested in reading the entire review. Kindly tell me where it can be read. Who is the reviewer? Thanks.
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"Long tall Marcia Ball"; that's what they call her down there in the swampland, and I call her music "Gator Boogie". She doesn't play the kind of music you expect to read about on a jazz thread, but occasionally I deviate. Marcia is influenced by the Gumbo Grooves of Dr. John, and the rhumba-boogie licks of Professor Longhair. When you add it altogether you got Louisiana "Honky Tonk". Let's check her out; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H240ErU_dtMDo you think I gave a good description of her music? Here's "Sparkle Paradise" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBRruP-_CYEMarcia really has a good time. Learsfool, why don't you hip us to some cool Classical music. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, Although I've heard a lot of jazz where the piano was less than perfect (good equipment reveals that) I interpreted "playing less than a stellar piano" as a judgement call in regard to Timmons playing and that's where "Stereophile" has often fallen short.
I don't know what's required to "hear" jazz, but they ain't got it. While I don't know music, I know good jazz when I hear it, and Bobby Timmons hit jazz licks as good as any I've ever heard. All things are judged through the prism of time, and the masses of those who are qualified to judge, and Stereophile has consistently struck out when it comes to jazz; they didn't even know who wrote "Moanin"; that spoke volumes for their qualifications.
Enjoy the music. |
O-10, re Mary Lou Williams:
Not much room for a "professional critique" in those two cuts, really; especially "Mary Lou’s Blues". What I mean is that I am reminded of the movie "Ratatouille" in which the restaurant critic "critiques" a plate of ratatouille; one of the most basic of comfort foods. Twelve bar blues is as basic and comfortable as you can get and Williams plays with a great sense and feel of the blues. As with a plate of great ratatouille the way she plays the blues feels just right; and with her own unique sense of rhythm, just like grandma’s ratatouille would be just right but still identifiable as grandma’s. I like the way she "floats" around the rhythm while still having a good sense of forward motion. I wouldn’t call "ML’s Blues" a "tune" at all since it is really just the piano player riffing on a blues chord progression and there is no identifiable nor repeated melody that would qualify it to be a "tune". Both "ML’s Blues" and "Blues" are twelve bar blues in the key of G with "ML Blues" being in 3/4 time (think blues waltz) and "Blues" is in the more common 4/4 time.
Stereophile and "Moanin":
While I don’t have any great love for the mag, I don’t share you disdain for it and, personally, have found quite a bit of useful info and even good music reviews in it; especially during the JGH days. I just listened to "Moanin" from that session and I think you may be misinterpreting what the reviewer means when he says that Timmons is "playing a less than stellar piano". He’s right! But, I believe he is referring to the piano itself (instrument) not Timmons’ playing. The piano sounds like a "less than stellar" upright piano and is obviously out of tune; especially the left hand portion of the keyboard. Believe it or not it happens; session is scheduled and the piano tuner doesn’t show up or is simply not a good technician, or it’s simply not a good piano. This can also have an effect on the player’s performance; although Timmons plays just fine on it. I would, however, agree that Morgan and especially Golson sound amazing on that cut. |
Great thread! Listening to "In a Silent Way" as I read through thread while thinking of any bases not yet covered RE "Jazz for aficionados". Have been on long quest for quality recordings that offer something different and gave remarkable sound quality. Here are a couple:
Billy Tate Meets Dollar Brand - Chiaroscuro Records, 1977
Out of the Storm - Ed Thigpen - Verve, 1966
Hope these aren't re-threads - Thanks for all the tips here. |
Rok, I have "Coltrane for lovers", and none of those songs appear on other CD's; but it states Coltrane Live has duplication that appear on other CD"s. From the description, it's probably best for "musicians"; while the cuts have the same titles, the music is quite a bit different, for example 40 minutes of "My Favorite Things".
Now that you mention it, Andre Previn does not travel far, "Like Young" is a record by him that I liked, it came out in 59, when "hippies" were "Beatniks", also check "My Fair Lady"; most of his stuff was West Coast".
Old Stereophiles are excellent for starting a fire in the fire place, or the Bar B Q pit.
Enjoy the music.
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Hi Newbee - I would say that your experience is quite common. Many people that don't think they like something when they first hear it change their minds later, after more exposure to things more easily understandable.
Artists, too, both composers and performers, react to each other all the time.
There is a movement away from dissonance in the classical music world as well - many of the current composers are writing much more tonal music again. Others are reacting against this.
I think much of it has to do with the times. You mention Berg and Schoenberg - they were living and writing in a time when the world was in the middle of two huge wars, and their music reflected that, as did that of many other composers, in different ways. Much of the minimalism that is being written today is a reaction against that type of music.
A lot more dissonance crept into jazz in the 50s and 60s, as different social movements for change happened, some of them violent. I think the smooth jazz of the 80s and 90s was in part a reaction to that.
An example from earlier in history - Richard Wagner changed music more than any other artist has ever effected his/her art form, though not in the way he thought he would, with his "Gesamtkunstwerks." But for pretty much 100 years after him, every composer had to deal with him and his ideas, and everything was a reaction to it. Music splintered off in so many different directions after that - it was never the same. Even Beethoven did not change music as radically as Wagner did. Ok, enough rambling for the night. :)
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Coltrane for lovers:
It's a compilation. I have found that I usually have all the music on the initial CD releases. I almost sprung for Coltrane's 'Heavyweight Champion'. But, like most one-artist compilation I had most of it, and just too many alternate takes.
*****
Since Previn goes back and forth between classical and jazz,***
He doesn't travel That far while going back and forth.
Stereophile:
I can't understand why you would read that rag for ANY reason. If they encourage people to spend serious money on wire, and every other audio con out there, why would you value their opinion on ANYTHING? Esp something as important as Jazz / Music.
Cheers |
Newbee, thanks for the recommendation. I had not heard this record eventhough I've been a fan of Haden and Rubalcaba for a long time. As you say, Haden was (!) a wonderful and extremely creative musician. Rubalcaba is an amazing virtuoso and one the very best younger Cuban musicians on the scene. "Esta Tarde Vi Llover" (trans: I saw it rain this afternoon) is a bolero written by Mexican composer Manzanero, but appropriated by Cuban singers and musicians and has become a standard in Cuban music; beautiful song. Joe Lovano sounds wonderful on this record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUwKNw3g48****but if it does could not the frequent whine of the demise of jazz actually have more to do with it than the actual, and continuing natural evolution of a music form?**** I think you're exactly right and precisely the point that I've tried to make many times here; I refer to it as the inevitability of the evolution of the music. As far as the listener goes, through an open mind and exposure what may sound like noise at first (Berg) can be appreciated for the beauty in its unique and strange musical language. |
Since Previn goes back and forth between classical and jazz, I can't account for his classical music, although I assume it's as good as his jazz. He was one of the early jazz musicians I acquired, and those records were excellent.
The music on Classic American Songbook is excellent. I don't think, if I like it, that's good enough for me. I like "American Classic Songbook", and I've always considered that music "jazz", although it can also be considered pop.
In regard to the evolution of jazz, or a general musical question, I'm sure others can answer those questions better than me.
Enjoy the music.
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I was perusing through an old "Stereophile" for music reviews when I ran across this:
"Moanin" was a swinging 1958 session featuring Lee Morgan and Benny Golson who put his mark on the band by composing three long time standards for it's book- the title track "Along Came Betty" and "Blues March". They go on to speak of how good the rest of the musicians are, except "Bobby Timmons" , quote: "It sounds as if Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano" then they go on to gush over everybody else on that album.
There ought to be a law against "Stereophile" ever writing a review on another jazz record.
First, they give "Bobby Timmons" tune "Moanin" to Benny Golson, and next they say he's playing less than stellar piano, when every time he strikes a piano key on this album, perfect jazz come out. It's for sure there are no "jazz aficionado's" at "Stereophile"
Enjoy the music.
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