I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Rok, Peter Crosby is a nobody who posted that rant in his personal blog. His ill-informed opinions reveal a lack of depth of knowledge and feeling for what the music is really all about, and the attempt at an "authoritative" style in his writing cannot make up for the shallowness. Sounds familiar.
For me, the proof of my contention is demonstrated most obviously in two items in his writing: one, some would dismiss as a simple oversight; but, for me, is a sign of lack of attention to detail which will inevitably be demonstrated in the thought process. One would think that anyone who devotes so much energy to putting down Wynton would know the how to spell his brother Branford’s name. The other is far more important:
****Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.****
Arturo Sandoval ?! Is he kidding? I don’t consider Wynton to be one of the great jazz trumpet players and have said so before; but he can play and is a brilliant trumpeter (among other things). But, let’s try and keep things in perspective folks. Sandoval ?! First, he rants against Wynton’s supposed "overplaying"; but, Sandoval? Also a very accomplished trumpet player (but without Wynton’s technical finesse), but who’s playing is usually tasteless and bombastic while leaning on his amazing technique and taking every opportunity to show off his super-high chops even when it’s completely inappropriate musically. One of the least impressive of the top current jazz trumpet players; unless one likes bombast.
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but he thinks very highly of himself. A not uncommon problem. I was impressed, however, that he mentioned Blue Mitchell as one of the greats 😉
Rok, the aristocracy has made the decision in regard to Wynton Marsalis; I guess that's because he can play classical music and went to Juilliard.
Everybody, including me, put Wynton in the class with all the past mentioned great trumpet players when he left Blakey; it was Wynton's albums when he got out on his own, that told who he was; he was a we wanted him to be, that didn't have it.
The aristocracy needs some kind of hand in the works on jazz; the aristocracy wants a foothold in everything, but at the end of the day, the same people who have always had the final decision in who's who in jazz still have it, and what the aristocracy says is "counterfeit".
They can put it in every news headline if they want to, and it will still be "counterfeit". Who's who in jazz is determined by the people on the street, not by the aristocracy.
The reality of a any highly regarded jazz artist; they had the talent, plain and simple; "either you got it, or you no got it". I can think of an artist who got world wide publicity, went to Julliard, played with the very best jazz artists around, but didn't measure up when he had his own group, and got out on his own. He could play the trumpet better than anyone around; nobody disagreed with that, not even other professional trumpet players, but leading your own group means coming up with your own original music that's good "sometime"; like Horace Taveres Silver.
SUBMITTED BY PETER.CROSBY ON DECEMBER 31, 2008 - 11:47AM
On December 29th, Freddie Hubbard, one of the last great jazz trumpet players, died after a heart attack at age 70. Growing up, I was a huge fan of Freddie. I used to listen to his records and play along (did I mention that I started playing trumpet when I was nine? Cuz I did).
I liked his fat tone and his melodic solos, but ironically, hated his song choices. In fact, I felt that he played best when he soloed on other people’s songs (“Zanzibar” by Billy Joel, for example).
But what upsets me the most about his death is that the Media—when they learn a jazz musician has died or done something newsworthy—immediately phones up the only jazz musician they’ve ever heard of, Wynton Marsalis, to comment. I swear they have the guy on speed-dial.
And, while Wynton is a skilled musician and brilliant self-marketer, he is not a brilliant jazz musician (unlike his older brother, Bradford). You see, whereas Freddie’s playing style was languid, relaxed and fat, Wynton’s style is overly busy, uptight, stilted, soulless, cold and technical. As a classical trumpeter, he’s extremely proficient. But Wynton’s forays into jazz are like Paris Hilton’s forays into acting—painful and unnecessary. So asking him to comment on jazz is like asking Britney Spears to comment on parenting.
What’s worse, he doesn’t just show-off by playing too many notes himself, he teaches upcoming young trumpeters to show-off by playing too many notes, too. It’s like the way Whitney Houston, albeit unwittingly, taught a generation of young girls such as Christina and Britney how to “sing” through their noses.
This was driven home for me when I recently attended a holiday concert at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco by Irving Mayfield. I had never heard of him before, but I wasn’t thrilled to learn that he was a protege of Wynton’s. Still, since Marsalis said he studied Freddie’s playing style without learning anything, I hoped that perhaps Mr. Mayfield was an equally poor student of Wynton’s playing style. No such luck. Mayfield has the same note-heavy, technical approach his mentor does.
Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.
And now, to that list, I must regrettably add Freddie.
Although these are Peter Crosby's thoughts, they are "sympatico" with my own.
"Blue Note" pushed their artists to produce original, visceral jazz of the sort attainable only with time and hard work. The music that arose in this atmosphere was like no other."
Does that mean that "Blue Note" can take credit for the music that was produced? "Blue Note" selected the artists who had a very rare talent, that no amount of hard work could produce. I was fortunate enough to know two of those artists personally, and my friend who didn't practice that summer was one of them.
"Too third world"; but I like third world, a drum hasn't been made that I don't like. I admit the guy on the cover didn't look much like Horace Tavares Silver, until you took a closer look, but everything must change.
I've been listening to "Bird's Best Bop", and I must admit, that was quite a switch from "Silver N' Percussion". That compilation brought up one question "How could one man turn the universe around in such a short time"? Birds music never gets old, and it's the only "Bop" I still like.
This is from "Silver N' Percussion" I think it's fairly interesting. It came out in 77 and not too bad for that time frame in his career. Babatunde Olatunji on percussion makes this one worth a listen.
Fabulous! Thank you for that, Alex. How can music that documents the beginnings of everything that’s talked about on this thread be "off topic"? It IS the topic. To understand and appreciate the music of that period is the way to best understand and appreciate the music of later periods. Have never heard Armstrong’s beautiful sound and fantastic rhythmic verve so clearly. Also never heard as clearly details like the way that the saxophone section match each other’s vibrato to create that wonderful sound like one instrument instead of three or four; practically a lost art. Important stuff. Thanks again.
Alex, I really enjoyed those clean recordings of Louis Armstrong; it's funny, but I'm so accustomed to the noise, clicks, and pops when I hear Louis Armstrong, that clean recordings of him sound strange.
In regard to the trumpet players, we share the same likes and dislikes; I think it's foolish to get in a who is the best argument, but I seem to get drawn into them sometime. I have heard some very good sounds made by FH, but he's a long way from my favorite.
Acman, I thank you for another fantastic contribution; Horace Silver is really digging in on this one; the way he's sweating, I hope that piano is waterproof. Everybody is playing at such a high energy level; I don't see how they can maintain the pace. Each individual artist is a star on this one. It's nice that "Song For My father" fell in after this one.
Keep up the good work; with everybody contributing we're getting everything we would want as a tribute to Horace Silver without all of it coming from one person.
*****
Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell?*****
Hmmmmmmmm If the choice is between those two, I would say, Louis Armstrong? Lee Morgan? Freddie Hubbard? Art Farmer? Roy Eldridge? 'Sweets' Edison? Clifford Brown? Clark Terry? Miles Davis? The JALC Trumpet section? And the list goes on and on.
4:58pm Yes I did. The cartoons were one of the best things about the magazine. That was back in the day when Audiophiles were secure enough to make fun of their own behavior. Before they got mean and nasty.
Acman posted "Graffiti Blues" by Blue Mitchell on 4/11/96, and it was released in 1973. Me and my buddies had what we called the jazz posse in 1973. When one of us bought a new album, the first thing we did, was to get on the phone and call for a gathering of "The Jazz Posse". Of course we did a lot more than just review a record, maybe we sampled some good wine, or whatever else that was available for sampling; anyway we really looked forward to these gatherings. One of the reasons I'm mentioning this, is because of the "alert" resources I had available in 1973, anytime a boss LP came up that I didn't know about, there was a very good reason for it; either it wasn't released at that time, or there was almost no exposure.
Another reason I'm mentioning this is because someone asked why didn't some of us buy "new" music. When I'm constantly discovering music like this, I don't have funds for new music, another reason is, this is so much better than "most" new music; not all new music of course, but rarely has anyone come up with any new music that's worthy of my limited funds.
Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell? Does it really matter?
Excellent playing by all, but not The silver we all know and Love. This one was recorded just before 'Jazz has a sense of humor'. The Silver CD I play the least.
Sorry, can't do. Attempts at dialogue with you, O-10, are utterly pointless. In my opinion you have shown that your intentions are not good. Either you deliberately distort what has been said or you are incapable of understanding. Either way, pointless.
"Should have stayed with Julien", you got that right. I can no longer afford the Kool aid, but once you start, you can't stop.
I long for those good old Stereo Review days, I still have a few; I really get a kick out of the low prices of equipment. Even today, the music reviews are better than "stereophile", and I really got a kick out of those "Rodriguez" cartoons.
"Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot! Blakey's version is too slow. There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me."
Above is exactly what you posted; when "Horace Silver" composed the tune; Horace Silver played piano on both versions; except, to me, Blakey and "The Jazz Messengers" kick it way up. How do you know that the composer didn't decide to slow it down a notch, since he was the same on both versions?
Evidently you're accustomed to teaching grade school kids who can't afford to get provoked. I'm going to leave it at that.
If you think Mitchell's version is better than Donald Byrds, put them up for a vote; we don't have no dictators here.
"either you are a person of extremely limited intellect to continually misunderstand and/or distort the meaning of things or you’re simply an ass"
If that's not provocative, I don't know what is; this can continue until the cows come home, and since I'm in St. Louis, that could take awhile.
"Nica's Dream" is very important to me for sentimental reasons. Frogman stated that his preferred version is the template by which all others should be judged "to paraphrase him" I strongly disagree.
This might be my favorite; he described it as "sleepy and lacking energy" If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. After that statement, I challenge his credibility as a "Jazz Aficionado".
Now what makes his statement so absurd, is that Horace Silver is on piano on both version. Figure that?
It seems that "Love and Peace", a tribute to Horace Silver; Dee Dee Bridgewater,done in 1994, was the last credited to Horace Silver. This is "Song For My Father" by Dee Dee.
Frogman, I've liked music all my life. When I became interested in audio equipment, I subscribed to "Stereo Review"; Julian Hirsch of "Hirsch-Houck Laboratories" was my guru, and his philosophy was; "if you can't measure it, it ain't worth talking about"; consequently I purchased my audio equipment based on specifications.
When my Phase Linear 4000 went on the blink, I decided to find out what those crazy people called "audiophiles" who paid crazy money for stereo equipment were all about. That's when I visited my first "High end salon", and I was blown away; this thing called a CJ PV 10 was a little pre-amp that sounded better than anything I had heard before, although it's specs were not as good as my Phase Linear.
After that, I discovered I could hear beyond what any test equipment could measure; that's when I became what I call a "subjectivist". Now, I base everything on my "subjective" senses, and it works for me, and I'll give you an example of how this worked just yesterday.
As you know, reel to reel tape decks are very complex pieces of equipment. My "pitch control" quit functioning properly and needed adjusting. The instructions in the repair manual were straight forward and simple, except for one thing; I didn't have the repair equipment.
(1) connect a digital counter to the output jack. (2) Set tape speed selector to 38cm/s (3) Set pitch control to on in center position. (4) Playback test tape QZZOW380EX (no problem if I had one) (5) Read the output frequency, and confirm that output frequency is 3000hz (6) If it is not 3000hz, adjust VR904 so that it becomes 3000HZ (7) After adjustment described above, turning pitch control to maximum and minimum position, confirm that more than 3180 hz is obtained at its maximum position,and less than 2820hz at its minimum position.
As easy as falling off a log, providing you have the test equipment.
I put on a Nina Simone tape, plugged my earphones in, and proceeded to adjust VR 904. This was a live recording, and when I could hear the tinkle of ice cubs in the background, I knew I had it right.
I look and see with my third eye, and listen with my inner ear; my "subjective" senses do the measuring, and that's how I function.
****Sort of like Magic Johnson coming back into the NBA today and being MVP, leading scorer and average a triple double for the entire season. That would reflect badly on the current NBA players, or maybe, just reflect on the greatness of magic****
Good point and good analogy. And as much as we may resist the simplicity of it, and as much as we have heard it, isn't it amazing how it always comes back to this simple comment?:
"There's only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind".
Doesn't matter the period, style or genre; it either tells a good story or it doesn't.
Batons:
Even before I opened the link I knew it was going to be of Gergiev and his infamous toothpick. First of all, imo, and that of many many musicians, Gergiev is one of the greatest musicians on the planet; he is amazing. I had the great pleasure of playing under him once performing Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exibition" and I can comfortably say it was possibly my most memorable musical experience ever. The job of a conductor is far more than the waving of a baton. Much of the work leading up to the performance happens in rehearsal and even conductors with less than ideal conducting technique can conduct a fabulous performance because of a particular talent in conveying to musicians his/her musical vision for a piece of music and this sometimes has little to do with the waving of the stick. Some conductors don't use a baton at all and in the performance that I mentioned Gergiev didn't use a baton. He is known to players as having a very idiosyncratic conducting technique; especially this little "shake" that he makes with his hand which can be maddening since it can give "false cues". You mentioned "magic":
Some conductors simply have "the magic" to convey what they want from players and are able to establish a musical performance-relationship in a way that is hard to describe; sometimes they can put their arms down altogether and still convey a great sense of pulse with their bodies; the magic. The toothpick:
Think about it for a moment. If a player sees a conducting pattern that is, say, three feet wide in any direction, vs one which is only a couple of inches wide (toothpick), with which is the "margin for error" greater? A smaller beat pattern is more concise, lets the player see exactly where the beat is and creates a potentially more concentrated rhythmic pulse; which is what the opening of Bolero is all about. I will admit that his use of the toothpick is a bit extreme, but I believe that is his reasoning. Of course, with certain music ("Pictures") or parts of a certain piece, the toothpick won't work; notice how in Bolero, as the piece progresses, his pattern gets larger and the fact that he is still holding the toothpick is pretty irrelevant.
Just my way of saying, Silver was Silver, just as he always was, and his music was still better than most , or all, in my opinion, Jazz being played almost 50 years later.
Sort of like Magic Johnson coming back into the NBA today and being MVP, leading scorer and average a triple double for the entire season. That would reflect badly on the current NBA players, or maybe, just reflect on the greatness of magic.
The Frogman: I have seen conductors use the regular sized batons and even no baton at all. But this? WTF, over?
Rok, I LOVED that clip. Had not heard that record and one of the reasons that I look forward to O-10’s retrospective; as much Silver as I have heard there’s a lot to catch up on. I think the title of this record is perfect timing for the recent squabbling; always good to keep one’s sense of humor. I find your comments interesting and I agree that Silver’s "loudest voice" is as a composer/band leader and, as individualistic as he was, less so as a player; just a few bars of that tune and one knows it’s a Silver composition. You’re right, Kisor went on to JALC and he sounds great on this record. Jimmy Green also sounds very good. To be frank, I am surprised how good both of these guys sound. Another testament to Wynton as a bandleader; he certainly knows how to pick them.
I am...lets just say..."intrigued" by your comment:
****It’s a sad indictment of modern Jazz that this was as good as anything else being played at the time it was released. You would have thought Silver would have been considered ’vintage’ by 2000.****
If we agree that this is good jazz, why the "indictment" of modern jazz if there is modern jazz as good as this (there is)? Moreover, much has been made on this thread about jazz "not needing to change". Here we have a great example of really good jazz in a more traditional hard-bop style and recorded in 1999. I don’t see the problem. I think the moral of the story is that "vintage" and "modern" can live side by side as long as the quality is good. Thanks for the clip and the introduction to the record; this is one I have to get. Speaking of vintage (very!) and "side by side":
No, O-10, that may be what you feel; but it is not the case. Why, then, do you ask the questions; if you don't want the answers? I'll make you a deal, don't ask me questions directly and I won't give you any answers directly. I am sincerely sorry if our interaction causes you to not have "fun"; that is certainly not my intention.
The "problem" can be boiled down to a couple of basic things, and this has been discussed (argued) before: Jazz and any other serious music is high art with a tremendous amount of very interesting "stuff" going on; it resists being kept only in the realm of "fun". I think that your idea of "fun" in discussing jazz is, in part, to be able to postulate and present things in a manner that conveys a certain sense of "authority" and ignore much of this interesting stuff; and, then, you recoil and take matters very personally when there is disagreement. The disagreement leads to attempts at discussions and these "discussions" lead to the opening of many "cans or worms" (those pesky things called "facts"). Underneath all this is the basic conflict created by your stance that it is one's subjective impressions that tell the whole story and the stance that considers subjectivity as only part of the story. I do have to say that I find irony in our recent discussions and your refusal to accept my subjective opinions while demanding answers to why I feel that way (Thomas' yodeling). Lastly, when there is disagreement, there is a tendency to lace your comments with a certain amount of sarcasm and provocation. This last thing is relatively unimportant as we are all, hopefully, big boys and girls, but this doesn't promote good dialogue.
So.... there, that was my analysis of the "problem". Once again, what you may feel is another long-winded anti-fun comment. From my perspective, if one can't identify a problem and see it for what it is there's no chance in hell that it will be solved. And, I am truly interested in solving the problem because as I have said many times before, this is your thread and I respect and commend you for starting it. As before, and in deference to you, if you want me to simply go away I will do so; just say the words. In the meantime, I encourage you to return to your retrospective on Horace Silver; as Rok said, there is much work to do and I look forward to your comments.
Frogman, you're turning what should be a pleasurable experience into a job; I'm retired and have no desire to work, not even for money. Call me when this gets to be a fun thing to do.
O-10, I asked you for musical yardsticks; iow, pertaining to the playing of the two trumpet players in question. Stylistic, command of the language of jazz; harmony, rhythm, inventiveness etc. You have provided none. While things like the number of recordings as a leader are certainly important, that fact says nothing specific about a musician's playing. Still, let's look at a yardstick you are using anyway: Blue Mitchell recorded 27 records as a leader and more than three times that many as a sideman; a pretty impressive recording resume by any standard. Now, here's the punchline: Mitchell died at age 49 and Byrd at age 81! Makes whatever leg up Byrd may have had in number of recordings pretty irrelevant as far as far as I am concerned. This still says nothing about who the better player was; a contention that you raised, I simply said that I liked Mitchell's solo on Nica's Dream and you went on to compare it to Byrd's solo on a different version of the tune. Importantly, FOR ME, Byrd recorded many records, particularly late in his career that were....well, let's just say, as Rok would say, that "left the farm". A term that I frankly is rather kind; I would say a lot of those funk/disco records were simply jive. Your own words about Byrd:
****Once I accepted the fact that it ain't jazz, I listened to it for what it is. While most of this new music is geared to someone much younger than me, I'm not so old that I done forgot what it's like to have wild hormones****
Not much of an endorsement for some of his "body of work". I can't think of any Mitchell recordings as a leader that were as ji......er, that left the farm as much as some of Byrd's 😉
Ok, the Blakey thing:
O-10, with all due respect some of your comments are simply not focused enough to have a substantive dialogue about some of these topics; to be blunt, they are sometimes all over the place. Example:
IT WASNT I WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BLAKEY PLAYING BEHIND OR AHEAD OF THE BEAT. Once again, it was YOU who said that, in reference to something you said someone else altogether said. I have said only that Blakey's drumming sounds lazy sometimes and that I like a different style of drumming better; drumming which is more crisp and organized and with more forward motion. As concerns Nica's Dream, I said that it was the choice of tempo, NOT NECESSARILY BLAKEY'S DRUMMING, that made the tune sound sleepy and was too slow (something you agreed with: "languid"). Still, if you want to know what is meant by playing ahead or behind the beat all you need to do is read some of my comments of about two weeks ago. However, I will repeat myself:
Playing ahead or behind the beat applies mostly (not always) to players other than drummers since it is usually the drummer who has the main role in establishing the pulse (beat) in a jazz band. In some bands the player most in control of the pulse can be the bass player and the drummer plays more TO the bass player's pulse. Still, in some other bands it is more democratic and the rhythm section establishes the pulse together without anyone player having the upper hand. Blakey, to my ears (especially when he plays brushes) tends to play in a style that is very relaxed and which doesn't propel the pulse as much as other drummers. Hence my use of the term "lazy". I prefer a drummer who plays more incisively and with a lighter touch and more forward momentum. At the opposite end of Blakey's style is a drummer like Buddy Rich who played with an almost manic sense of forward motion; I dislike that as much as the lazy approach. I love drummers like Max Roach, Tony Williams and Roy Haynes; crisp, light touch, lots of forward momentum; but, controlled.
"The beat" is the pulse that an ensemble establishes during a performace of a tune. A horn player has a certain amount of latitude on the front side of "the beat" as well as on the backside and a little latitude is not perceived as behind or ahead of the beat, but as a stylistic choice to play in a relaxed fashion or in a rhythmically aggressive fashion. At a certain point too much deviation from "the beat" established by the rhythm section is perceived as obviously behind or ahead of the beat and COULD be considered objectionable:
One of Silver's last recordings (1999). This is 46 years after he started with the Jazz Messengers. As you can hear, he didn't change his style of playing. I am beginning to think he is like Mingus in the sense that he is a composer first, player second.
I think with some players, the composition of the group, sidemen, is more important than with others. With Silver the group personnel is critically important. Seems incorrect to call them sidemen. Since he mainly plays with a stabbing staccato style (drumming), some one has to play the melody and carry the essence of the tune.
Ryan Kisor on Trumpet. I think he is another one who is now with Wynton.
I like this CD. It's a sad indictment of modern Jazz that this was as good as anything else being played at the time it was released. You would have thought Silver would have been considered 'vintage' by 2000.
After all of this, it would really be a waste not to understand "before and after the beat", but it would have to be explained by example. In regard to a "yardstick", there would have to be a number of them, and finally to take them all into consideration; for example, one of them would be how many albums an artist has made as leader. Another would be how many tunes he has composed; but since I'm a total "subjectivist" that's sort of moot because then we would have an "objective" measurement of music, and I say which ever artist you like the best, is the best.
Horace Silver is coming after you have explained "before and after the beat"
**** What happened to the complete, detailed, in-depth, comprehensive, time no object, thorough, and exhaustive review of the music of Horace Silver? ****
Excellent question!
O-10, if your question about Blakey's drumming style is an honest one, I would be glad to go into more detail; and, you could also explain your "yardsticks" comment as I asked you to previously. But really, I think it's time to stop this silliness; I will, anyway. I think it's obvious our personal agendas here are very different and, unfortunately, diametrically opposed; so, I would prefer to not distract you from your work on your exhaustive review of Silver's music. Regards, and I look forward to your review.
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