Hi O-10 - I have heard Sidewinder; I bought it on LP for my trumpet playing (not professionally) brother once, though I don't have my own copy. I have not heard Search For The New Land. Lee Morgan is one of his favorites, too.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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Hi Rok - Frogman is correct. Most Beethoven symphonies are scored for only two horns. The exceptions are #3, which is scored for three, and #9, which is scored for four. Sometimes you will see more than two players, though. In these cases, some of the sections of the work are being doubled - many conductors like to do this, though the players themselves almost never like to do that. Sometimes you might see three people out there in a piece scored for two, or more commonly five players out there for a piece scored for four horns. In this case, the extra player is called the assistant. They don't have their own part; they are there to assist the other players, mostly the principal. Many principal players would use an assistant for such a difficult work as the Beethoven 7th, though there is not being one used in that particular clip. By the way, another reason that the conductor could be turning over many pages at once is if they are going back to take a repeat. Or, they could have put a cut in the work. In either case, you will see many pages being turned over at once. |
Watched this Movie on DVD today. A must see movie. GREAT theme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HtHEgINHO0 Cheers |
Rok, if memory serves, only two of his symphonies (3&9) use more than two horns. (Learsfool?) Prominent in scoring not necessarily in numbers. Conductor/score: As is pretty common with a work this popular, the conductor is conducting from memory. So, he conducts each movement from memory, but turns the pages to the beginning of each movement "just in case"; a security blanket if you will. Look closely, when he turns pages at the end of the first movement, you'll notice that he hasn't turned any pages up to that point. One of my very favorite orchestras, btw. |
Learsfool, here's some more information on "Search For The New Land". It's an album by jazz trumpeter Lee Morgan; a hard bop set with a group of well-known jazz musicians, Search for the New Land was recorded before The Sidewinder was released and is considered more abstract than its popular predecessor. Although it was recorded in 1964, the album was shelved for two years, then issued with the original catalogue number 84169. It is described by jazz commentator Scott Yanow as "one of the finest Lee Morgan records". All songs composed by Lee Morgan. "Search for the New Land" – 15:45 "The Joker" – 5:04 "Mr. Kenyatta" – 8:43 "Melancholee" – 6:14 "Morgan the Pirate" – 6:30 Personnel Lee Morgan – trumpet Wayne Shorter – tenor sax Herbie Hancock – piano Grant Green – guitar Reggie Workman – bass Billy Higgins – drums That boss guitar solo that comes in at 9:18 is Grant Green; ain't it nice. I was wondering where Lee got that beautiful tone; he took lessons from Clifford Brown, where else. There is no more beautiful tone. Herbie Hancock really shines on this tune; as a matter of fact, all the musicians shine on this tune, thanks to Lee Morgan's beautiful composition. Enjoy the music. |
Voted the best orchestra in the world by BBC Music Magazine a while back. They play like they are indeed. The Frogman: Only two horn players. I always thought the horns played a prominent role in the 7th. I thought there would be more. At the end of movements at, 14:19, 24:09, and 34:11, The conductor turns not one page of his score but many pages. You have any idea what's on the pages he is bypassing? Cheers T |
So much conveyed by so few. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_87wul09cuA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiyO_NfPzDI Cheers |
Learsfool, Lee Morgan is so fantastic, that I can't think of a bad cut, when I've heard bad cuts by Charley Parker. Picking out the best is quite a job, but I pick the album, "Search For The New Land", every cut on that album is boss. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDfkkRa1VA8 Enjoy the music. |
Loving the discussion of classical. When I invite a friend over for serious listening we always start with jazz. I play a cut, he plays a cut, etc. Then we find the blues, a little r&b and then classical. Sometimes opera and then make our way back to jazz. I've been fortunate enough to have had friends that teach jazz at the college level and very often they will ask their student in a jazz band to "sing their part." This is done for a variety of reasons I won't go into here. Bobby McFerrin takes this to a whole new level. This is a fun clip. Bob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klc6nH8E_Qw And for those that are curious; some of my favorite classical composers are Steve Reich, George Rochberg, Schoenberg and Frank Zappa. |
Lee Morgan recorded prolifically from 1956 until a day before his death in February 1972. His primary stylistic influence was Clifford Brown, with whom he took a few lessons as a teenager. He began recording for Blue Note Records in 1956, eventually recording 25 albums as a leader. In 1958 he joined the Messengers, and was the featured trumpet on "Moanin", their best selling album. After his commercial success of "The Sidewinder", Blue Note encouraged it's other artist to emulate it's "Boogaloo" beat. According to drummer Billy Hart, Morgan said he had recorded "The Sidewinder" as filler for the album, and was bemused that it had turned into his biggest hit. He felt that his playing was much more advanced on Grachan Moncur III's essentially avant-garde Evolution album, recorded a month earlier, on November 21, 1963. In my opinion, formula and jazz don't mix, you're heading for a jazzwreck. Fortunately Morgan didn't listen too well, because he recorded "Search For The New Land" in 64 which is definitely not formula, but some of the finest jazz in my collection. Lee Morgan recorded so prolifically that I don't have a large portion of his works; normally I would scrutinize each individual album before purchase, but this time I'm going to see what I ain't got and get it. There are two things I'm concerned about, that's recording quality and music; his large box set has so much music that I can't go wrong there, and if the recording quality is not the best, I can re-purchase the one's I like most. Here is a link that will prove invaluable in helping you to fill in the gaps in your Lee Morgan collection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Morgan_discography Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I thought you were making more of a humorous statement than a serious one, and square pegs into round holes was meant to be humorous. I am not in a rancorous mood, and have no intention of getting into one; you're going to have to play this match with no one on the other side of the net. Enjoy the music. |
****Frogman, you really like to fit square pegs into round holes; "All I have to do is chisel off the corners, and I got a perfect fit"*** Not at all. The first problem with that comment is that you somehow equated "commonality of CORE values" with "perfect fit". The good stuff in understanding why the two things are completely different. Now, this is good; really good. I am being sincere, O-10; really good! What am I talking about? OK: I welcome your comments. You expressed your viewpoint and I can agree or disagree; and, as far as I am concerned, there then is the potential for interesting dialogue. However, it needs to be pointed out that there were three options for me: 1. I could just ignore the comment; what some might say is taking the high road (how boring). 2. I could retort, as I did, and hope for the mature, uncontentious, hopefully interesting dialogue. Or: 3. I could react by saying something like (and I will quote someone): "Why are you directing that BS at me" or "I was having a dialogue that you had no business joining" or "You're drinking the Kool-aid" or "You're just talking smack" or "You're phaking the phunk" or "Why are you always ready to pounce on me" or, or, or In the interest of better and more mature dialogue, O-10, I hope you get my drift. I prefer #2. Regards. |
Frogman, you really like to fit square pegs into round holes; "All I have to do is chisel off the corners, and I got a perfect fit" Vivaldi: Vier jaargetijden/Quattro Stagioni - Janine Jansen - Internationaal Kamermuziek Festival That music was just what I needed for checking out my speakers; there's such a fine line between screeching, and not screeching with violins. Since it was piped into the main rig, I was in the dark in regard to the visual, but I enjoyed the music more. Although it sent me into "sleep mode", I needed a nap, and it was still playing when I woke up. For a long time I had been wondering about my speakers, now I pronounce them fit to do battle with any genre of music.. Enjoy the music. |
I could always hear a little Jazz in this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRi6yhqmuxU&index=13&list=PLJnLi1aO2X3qW0DUAC5eHnOulg8nGkW-1 Now, let me go hide also. Cheers |
Vivaldi: Nice! First of all, if I were one of those players I’d be watching her bow as well as her....ahem....what a beauty and what a player! You made a comment recently about "heady stuff". Here’s some heady stuff: at the end of the day, as far as the CORE values of music making are concerned, there is FAR MORE commonality between this and the best jazz playing than there are differences. I’ll go hide now. |
"nice clip"/Stravinsky "Sacre" : "nice tune"/Ellington "Black, Brown and Beige" 😉 BTW, this was what I originally wrote and partially deleted before posting: ++++One of the very greatest 20th century works. Amazing piece of music! Up there with Classical works of.....well, let's go slow++++ O-10, glad you enjoyed that. I am looking forward to seeing Mavis Staples live this July. |
This amounts to a Classical Jam session. I love the facial expressions and antics of the Soloist, The Principal, and the female cellist. Notice how the Soloist and the Principal communicate without words. She seems to be watching the Bow of the Soloist. Love it!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzE-kVadtNw Thanks for the info on printing scores. ***** Stravinsky "Sacre": One of the very greatest 20th century works. Amazing piece of music! ***** A simple "nice clip" would have sufficed. Cheers |
Stravinsky "Sacre": One of the very greatest 20th century works. Amazing piece of music! Huge orchestra. Yes, the music dictates that; that is how the composer scored it. As you say, eight horns; and, two of them double on Wagner tubas. Two of the trumpets double on bass (!) trumpet. This is a brilliant piece of orchestration genius and definitely not a case of "let's throw everything in there but the kitchen sink" resulting in many fantastic colors and textures. As an aside: this being a work written for a ballet and ballet orchestras having to be in a pit, there is a version of this work (done by Stravinsky himself) for reduced orchestra in order for the musicians to fit into the typically smaller space in a pit. Good question re the printing of the music. That is one of the jobs of a good editor and printer (publisher), to account for precisely what you describe. It is the bane of every player's existence when a publisher does NOT do that and the music is printed in such a way that you have to turn the page in the middle of a passage. They usually try and have the music at the end of a page end with a rest. What you saw from the violinists is standard protocol; the stand partner turns while the other player keeps playing. BTW, Van Sweden will be the NY Phil's next music director beginning 2017. |
Frogman, That was some of the most moving music I've heard. That kind of social interest and motivation that existed then is dead and buried. If you want to understand the "antagonist", the people responsible for the social injustice, read "The Collected Short Stories of Eudora Welty". That woman understood southerners better than they understood themselves. Eudora Welty was born in Jackson, Mississippi in 1909, and died in 2001; she lived a long time, and she spent all that time observing and writing mostly about Southerners. Not until you truly understand what motivated Southerners, can you truly understand their actions. She could illustrate in her short stories, better than anyone else I've read, how people in Mississippi were raised from the cradle to the grave, in a fashion that motivated them to do the things they did. I really enjoyed the music. |
Water Music: You would not believe how many performances of this music I own. I love it. I like this one even better after seeing the video. My first, and still my favorite, was by The Academy of Ancient Music with Christopher Hogwood. Still has the Tag from The German store where I bought it. Radio Pruy, 35.80 DM. Marvis Staples: Gotta have it!! She hit most of the Anthems of the Civil Rights Movement. All very well done. Born in Chicago, which is not her fault, and since Pops Staples was from Mississippi, she is authorized. Questions to The Frogman: I 'stumbled' upon this on youtube. Surely I wouldn't seek out Stravinsky. :) This is a HUGE orchestra. They have at least 8 horn players. Does the music dictate this? When the players have to turn the pages of the music, is any consideration given, during the printing of the sheet music, to what is being played by a particular instrument at the end of the page? IOW, would the sheet come to an end in the middle of a very difficult passage? I noticed the violin player sitting next to the Principal, stopped playing, to turn the page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UJOaGIhG7A |
**** I spent the day listening to my recently received "Water Music" by the Akademie fur Alte Musik Berlin.**** What’s the verdict? Speaking of Mavis Staples: In spite of my general skepticism about pc (perhaps because of it?), I always hesitate posting music with such a strong social consciousness message since some things are too deeply personal for the impersonal nature of the Internet, but I love this record’s music and production (Ry Cooder) and I love this woman’s voice: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ7QPuvv91Js9joIUEy40HWLH4i2lQTOU |
O-10, nice tribute to Gladys Knight. I’ve always been a fan and although I’ve never heard her live I am not surprised to learn that she is such a warm person; that smile says warmth. Made me think of this old record of mine by another R&B diva: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeNfB-tb7g |
Rok, nice tribute to Gladys Knight. I’ve always been a fan and although I’ve never heard her live I am not surprised to learn that she is such a warm person; that smile says warmth. Made me think of this old record of mine by another R&B diva: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeNfB-tb7g |
Frogman, when I saw Trane in 63, this is about how long he played "MY Favorite Things". They began just like it sounds on the album and they continued after that. Trane went on until he lost McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones. They decided to stay together and let Trane come back to them. The lady I was with, wanted to know if Trane was on something, but the musician at the table assured us he was clean. Right now I'm trying to find some music that resembles what Trane was playing, and this is it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjDrkTmqxQk This is "The Olantunji Concert", This is what Trane was playing after he had worked "My Favorite Things" as far as it would logically go. This was recorded in 1967 and it 34:38 long. This is what Trane sounded like when he lost Elvin Jones and Tyner in 63. I said it once, and I'll say it again, he should have stopped before he got this far out because he was pleasing no one but himself as far as I can see; but I know you being the "alpha musician", scratch that "the consummate musician" can enlighten us farther, and explain how this was the way to go. Enjoy the music. |
Now that I'm out of that state of transcendental meditation, it's time to get back to the state of jazz, where the word on the street in the late 50's and early 60's was "Lee Morgan" was the best trumpet ever; he certainly got my vote. Right now I'm examining this box set. For once I'll have to ask Frogmans advice. Frogman, what do you think about Lee Morgans "Blue Note" box set The one where you get 6 CD's for $15.00? When I look at these box sets, I see too much that's missing, and I think the recording quality might be better by just buying the CD's with favorite tunes? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QR1JYUI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687442&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-st... Can I get the Frogman's invaluable opinion? Enjoy the music. |
I hate to disappoint you Frogman, but the Art Blakey story is a sad one and I've had my fill of sad stories. I think I'll even switch genres today, how about some "World Music". How about "Jai Uttall", what a name; although he grew up in New York City (you might have known him Frogman) Indian music touched him at 17, and he moved to California where he studied under the famous Sarod player, Ali Akbar Khan. He later began regular pilgrimages to India, living among the Bauls; they're wandering street musicians. He became deeply absorbed in the practice of kirtan, the ancient yoga of chanting, or singing to God. This form of prayer became the core to Uttal’s musical and spiritual life. I have this CD "Beggars and Saints" of his that appeals to me. Here's "Be With You", it speaks of long lost love, the kind one never forgets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VyIlINNME4 Now we get into the real deal, "Shiva Shankara"; anytime you hear the name "Shiva", you know you're deep into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnMbMxQFk40 This music will make you forget whatever ails you, it might even cause you to go into a state of transcendental meditation and never return. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHIgJlDH2dM Enjoy the music. |
O-10, there is an important difference between setting out to "teach" and simply correcting misstatements in order to keep a discussion relevant. I hope you are able to understand that distinction at some point. No, I don't think you are "bad,bad, Orpheus hindering" anyone. I don't think about these things that way and anyone participating in one of our discussions can choose to ignore my point of view, or not. However, just as you are free to express yourself about this stuff, so is anyone else, myself included. Whether you want to accept it or not, what I write about music is not "talking smack"; I do know what am talking about. I hope you will at some point stop being so reactive and simply take this as an opportunity to, if not learn, have the satisfaction of knowing that you are presenting ideas that are factual. Please try and read what write a little more carefully: I never said that there was a "standard" framework for improvisation; my comment was: ****and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation. I'll stop there unless you want to know more.**** The last sentence goes to the fact that there can be different frameworks and that if you want to know more I would be glad to explain. I look forward to your stories about Art Blakey. |
"I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music". Why do you direct this BS at me? I'm hindering all the poor people who want to learn music on this thread; bad bad Orpheus. If it wasn't for me, you could teach em to blow like Miles. Teach on professor Frogman, you have my blessings. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, since this thread began, you have talked about anything you wanted to talk about, why should you stop now? Sometime there are two or maybe three different conversations going at the same time on different subjects; maybe Rok and Learsfool are engaged in a conversation about classical music, that I couldn't care less about. Your last paragraph would seem to indicate that you wrote the book on "improvisation" and you even know how every "hard bop" artist improvises. Considering all the different artists I've heard, and the fact that you're going to give some standard framework for improvisation, I think you're talking smack. Enjoy the music |
O-10, I mean no disrespect and I certainly don't want to "violate" any unwritten set of rules that you may have envisioned for this thread as a thread of recommendations of recordings and nothing more. I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music". First of all, I don't see how it's possible to have any kind of substantive discussion of anything or any artist by simply keeping the thread's posts to "I like" or "I don't like", personal anecdotes and nothing more. Personally, I think it would be a pretty boring thread. But, let's assume that we agree to those "rules". I think that the reason we seem to be going around in circles about this is that, first of all, you yourself keep bringing up technical aspects of the music and that there is a basic misunderstanding about some....basics; and the misuse of certain key terms. The only alternative would be to let those misstatements slide and continue a discussion based on a mistaken premise; not a reasonable proposition I think. Take this recent issue of improvisation: Even in hard-bop there is no such thing as "improvising beginning to end" as you wrote. Moreover, the issues around this disagreement about improvisation applies to ANY style of jazz, not just hard bop. I think that a good place to start clearing up this confusion is by recognizing the mistaken notion that because there are no sheets of music in front of them that the musicians are necessarily "improvising". This is not the case. There is, first of all, the "tune" or melody in a hard bop performance which is not "improvised", and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation. I'll stop there unless you want to know more. Regards. |
Acman3, excellent Renee Rosnes clip; up there with Bill Charlap (her husband) as one of my very favorite of the new crop of piano players. There is a truism in music, applicable to any genre, that a musician plays the way that he/she is as a person. Rosnes is a wonderful player with a clear Bill Evans influence who plays in a way that is, dare I say it?, feminine in the approach to the keyboard and to rhythm. Lest I upset those with a pc sensibility, I mean that only as a compliment based on my sensibilities and I am obviously generalizing; I appreciate the differences between the feminine and masculine approach to things. There is a gentle and "sexy" approach to rhythm in her playing that I love. She is the opposite of percussive on the keyboard and her rhythmic feel has a wonderful light touch that draws you in and doesn't hit you over the head. Beautiful player. With her husband Bill Charlap on the Joe Henderson classic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dsiDkEuxM1c Would love to know the inside scoop of the reason for the choice of this tune on their album together: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xgya62mb1NU Also, thanks for the Lage and Frisell clips; great stuff. Lage has such a distinctive tone; and Frisell is, of course, brilliant as always. |
"Aficionados", I seem to write a lot about big time musicians I've seen live, and I was wandering; what have I written about Art Blakey? My memory is not as good as it once was, and I don't like to repeat myself; I was hoping that you might help me out before I attempt to gather my thoughts about the time I saw Art Blakey. Enjoy the music. |
Acman, you do have an ear for new music, new to me anyway. I listen on a regular basis to one of your recommendations; the controversial one. Renee Rosnes is very pretty; unfortunately I wont be seeing her beauty in my listening room, but since she also plays beautiful music, that will suffice. I'm looking over her discography in order to select a purchase. Thanks for the heads up. Enjoy the music. |
Learsfool, we're talking about "hard bop" where you improvise from beginning to end, as in a "Jam Session"; like the one's Miles, Bird, and Diz engaged in, not just improvising in a standard piece of music. I am not even hinting that you are not the most competent of competent musicians; what I am saying is that you would not be able to engage in a "hard bop" jam session. Enjoy the music. |
Hi O-10 - as Frogman and jzzmusician pointed out, your post in response to mine was quite wrong. There is nothing you mentioned about improvisation that a classical musician cannot do, even if we assume that we are only discussing the style of improvisation that you are talking about. Any competent musician of any genre can do that, with some practice. All it requires is some basic knowledge that you are not interested in. We get that you don't want to be taught anything. However, you will have to accept that therefore there are things you will never understand and will continue to be wrong about; and that we will continue to correct misinformation you keep putting out there because of this. |
In the talent deserving greater recognition category. Listen to her other Youtube video's if you don't own her work. Always wonderful! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI3XxvLwoHg |
Rok, I thought I had answered your question. Yes it does make a difference; Rudy discovered that if you cut down the volume, that gave you more room for dynamic range. The difference between soft and loud can be very distracting when the volume is high; recording level is a tricky issue. Enjoy the music. |