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Frogman, I don't think expressing points of disagreement is "throwing rocks", and apparently you don't either. What is "stereotypical" to one person is really "gittin down" to another person; that's because the other person hasn't heard as much jazz, consequently, what's old hat to me, is new to you, and you don't recognize it as "stereotypical" because you haven't heard it before.
Enjoy the music.
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TY- Rok,
I find it odd the things WM said about Miles and Pat.
I think that WM is truly steeped in the New Orleans Jazz tradition.
Maybe this is what he was referring? |
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Before moving on to fusion in 1976, I thought it would be good to look at some of what was happening in (unequivocally) jazz: Second only to Freddie, Woody Shaw, is my favorite of the more recent trumpet players. This record features one of the truly unsung alto saxophone heros Frank Strozier: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kf5txz0Bh-EHis last recording while still in Europe and making his acclaimed return to the USA. One of the true giants and the epitome of relaxed swagger in playing style. Straddles a fine line between relaxed and painfully behind the beat. Love Dexter: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBvM9WbMjcWhat was I thinking?! I missed this one for 1975: Beck has already been mentioned; monster! Dave Sanborn would influence the way the alto saxophone was played by countless young players. Even the diehard jazz guys can be heard to have Sanbornisms in their playing. As an interesting aside, Sanborn considers Stevie Wonder's harmonica playing one of his main influences:: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL61q9XLJ_eZCCacgEzQeh2GemoyYvdJyl&v=qRmEpnyNeJIAcman3, Holdsworth!....holy shit! Thanks. |
Ghosthouse, you got my day off to a good start; when I discovered that something I posted is not only benefiting you, but also someone in your family, that really blessed my day. This is another album by Didier Lockwood that impressed me; he can touch on so many different genres, and still stay in the framework of jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbsnoE4RvCk&list=PLehwxpvRcYAGVoOfi1iG4PzEvPoXWlRoUEnjoy the music. |
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Ghosthouse, yes it is dated, but I was trying to get Phillip Catherine from this period. Short window, but we can revisit him later. |
Acman3, loved the Herlin Riley clip. It should be pointed out that Riley is a member of the JALC orchestra and that many of the personal projects that the individual members of that orchestra are involved with are very forward looking; drawing from the past, but definitely in the present and pushing ahead.
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Frogman wrote - "What the purists don’t want to accept is that you can’t stop the evolution of the art form (any art form); it is always a reflection of the times. The purist thinks that he is "protecting" the art form by blanketly (?) rejecting the new. I think Wynton can take much credit for keeping the flame of tradition alive. However, one has to ask oneself the question? Ultimately, what does the most damage to art in the overall scheme of things? To try to keep the flame of tradition alive by rejecting the new directions that the art form takes; directions which are a natural part of its process. Or, to accept the new directions with the knowledge that accepting the new doesn’t have to mean forgetting about tradition, while holding the new up to the same standars for defining excellence. By doing the latter, what you end up doing is bringing a larger and younger audience to the art form who will end up discovering the traditional. There is always room for the new and the old, and excellence is not defined by whether it is new or whether it is old. "
Well said, Frogman. Great counterpoint to Wynton’s position and one, personally, that I tend to believe..."art will evolve" whether I want it to or not.
Acman thanks for the Jean Luc Ponty links. I had liked his playing with Zappa but limited sampling of his solo stuff (Cosmic Messenger?) just sounded awfully dated to me. On the other hand, the Blue Note recording (available on Amazon and I will order) did not. Seemed fresh. The King Kong it opens with is one of my favorite pieces from Zappa (to the uninitiated, see KK Variations on Uncle Meat). Thanks much.
Orpheus very much enjoying your Didier Lockwood link. Have forwarded to to family. My sister is a classically trained violinist but lately interested in other forms (Grappelli music book on the stand in their music room).
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Fantastic interview clips, Acman3. They should be required watching for all on this thread; the Crouch/Mtume debate in particular. Here's part two of that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jAtaxon9t5gIts late so I'll check out and comment on the music clips tomorrow. Thanks! |
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One of my favorite vocal albums is one I've been listening to a lot lately; it's "Film Noir" which was nominated for the Grammy Award for Best Traditional Pop Vocal Performance. This album is by Carly Simon, who has been all over the place in regard to musical genres. This album, Carly Simon and her vocals seem to bring a part of my past alive, and back to the present. Have you ever heard a song, or an album that you felt was made especially for you; every song in this album reaches me in that manner. The very first cut on this album grabbed me; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wta3xkqJo&list=PLF8ORYKG1eEqjPegl49CHYc_Scqa40vDmIt's like when you were with one woman but thinking about another, and this other woman seemed to have the audacity to be looking over your shoulder and telling you "You Won't Forget Me". Fortunately this album comes with a video, I think you'll like it. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, that sure sounds good, I completely missed that one. This is what I'm talking about when I say you think you got it all, when something by one of your favorite musicians pops up that you never heard before.
Enjoy the music. |
The surgeon that performed the first, or one of the first heart transplants in this country, had this music piped into the operating room as he performed the transplant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv35zFXXLGMCheers |
****Stay tuned****
Nah! He doesn't pay enough ☺️
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"Grover Washington Jr." was certainly popular in the 70's. That's when I was traveling a lot between St. Louis and Atlanta, and Grover Washington was very popular in both places. He was one of the most consistent musicians when it came to good sounding music; that continued up until his death in 1999. In 1971, he came out with an album titled "Inner City Blues", and there was not one bad cut on it; as a matter of fact, I have to present 3 cuts on that album: Inner City Blues; Mercy Mercy Me, and Ain't No Sunshine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxHao8aZPI&list=PLutzgs53WVha-XVfWBt4zEqpnhCfoiMl5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXWsVg3ZC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKfiyY9UcpIThose three cuts were from the same album. I bought that album when it came out, and it is well worn. This is what "Wiki" says about Grovers style; Fusion, Jazz-Funk, Smooth Jazz; I'm not quite sure I know what all that means, but when Grover does it, I like it. One last time for Grover; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeEEqA3pPsEnjoy the music. |
If Wynton was from St Louis and was a drug addict, caused by BN of course, he would be O-10's boy also. Esp if he was cheated by BN and had great record sales in Japan.
Cheers |
I suspect that In the not too distant future, I will click on the latest you-tube from JALC, and there, in the Tenor Sax chair, will sit, The Frogman. At that point all the boos, hisses and cries of outrage directed at Wynton will cease. Wynton, at that point, will be The Frogman's boy.
Stay tuned.
Cheers |
C’mon Rok, we’re all big boys (and girls?). It IS possible to have interesting discussion about something without complete agreement. There was no "bashing" in anything I wrote. However, in that comment is found the real issue; the swing (pun) to an "all or nothing" attitude. Wynton is great in so many ways. But is he deserving of total and complete adulation and worship? Is there no room for disagreement about specific areas?
Me and O-10, "birds of a feather"? Yikes! I don’t think so. We may agree about Wynton in a very general sense, but that’s about it. What I mean is, I don’t consider Wynton’s playing "stereotypical" AT ALL (!). I (and many) just don’t think his jazz playing is very interesting by the standards set by the great jazz players of the past.
Ellington:
Fantastic! Your description of that music is spot on. The Duke was brilliant.
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*****
If there was an award for the most "stereotypical" jazz of the year, Wynton Marsalis would win it every year.*****
Well, adding your opinion to that of The Frogman's, doubles the total number of Wynton Bashers in the Jazz world.
Cheers |
*****
Orpheus and Frogman agree on something*****
Birds of a feather. What else is new?
Cheers |
Today's Listen: Duke Ellington -- LATIN AMERICAN SUITE If, like me, you thought this would be The Duke's band with 30 guys on percussion instruments and 40 'Latin' trumpets, you would be wrong. Written soon after his Band toured South and Central America. It was originally going to be called "Mexicanticipacion". Mercifully, the name was changed to "Latin American Suite". This music shows why this man was such a special composer. He heard the sounds and rhythms of South America and expressed them in such a delicate and sophisticated way. With a lesser person, this could have been Santamaria on steroids. This tune was recorded in 1970. So there was Jazz being made and played during the 70's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W1vR3D6S4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD5PVfMyvUs Cheers |
Easy, O-10, lets not exaggerate; not the only time we've agreed. I did think you were pretty good doing that rain dance 😅 |
"Aficionados"! On this day, Friday, the 20th of May, 2016, Orpheus and Frogman agree on something; ditto on Wynton. Don't be surprised if a volcano somewhere erupts, or some other cataclysmic event occurs.
If there was an award for the most "stereotypical" jazz of the year, Wynton Marsalis would win it every year.
Enjoy the music.
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Food for thought (hopefully): There is a viewpoint that says that Donald Trump has no intention of building a wall. All politicians, however well-intended or deluded, sometimes say things that they know will have to be amended over time in order to "gain some traction". From Wynton’s own website: ****Two rising stars of jazz will lead the Miles and ‘Trane celebrations in Dizzy’s Club Coca-Cola. On May 13 – 15 at 7:30pm, trumpeter Keyon Harrold – called “the future of the trumpet” by Wynton Marsalis – will lead an expansive exploration of Miles Davis’ music in Iconic Miles Davis. Like Davis, Harrold is an eclectic, genre-hopping, and convention-spurning musician whose music ranges from unadulterated bebop and straight-ahead jazz to electronically-infused R&B and hip-hop.**** Hmmmm.......interesting! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oaGIbgNOUFcJazz?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZiVpwrPhY |
Ghosthouse, thanks for the Andy Summers clip; I enjoyed it. |
Some further thoughts on the topic of Wynton:
Rok states:
****The criteria is drawn from his background. He Comes from a very distinguished and established musical family, in the birth place of jazz, New Orleans. Knows the history of the music, from it’s roots and beginnings. Is a virtuoso on his instrument. Holds the most important position in the world of Jazz today, leader at JALC. Is the media’s go to guy for all things Jazz. Very articulate. Very personable. Educated. Can talk about, explain, and teach the young about the music.****
Everything that Rok says is true. However, notice the conspicuous absence of a comment about his jazz playing. It would be an exaggeration to quote the old adage "those who can’t, teach", but I think it’s important to put Wynton’s sheer credibility as a jazz player as part of the backdrop before accepting everything that the guy says as gospel or that he has THE definition of jazz.
There is an interesting irony in what Wynton has accomplished in all the ways already described. Here we have an art form that has been traditionally and staunchly resistant to the rules of "the establishment" and things like "jazz education"; a music which is deeply about self expression and soul. Yet, Wynton, himself, has become "the establishment". He holds, as Rok points out, the highest "position" in jazz. Who woulda thunk? A "position" in jazz? When and how did that happen?
What the purists don’t want to accept is that you can’t stop the evolution of the art form (any art form); it is always a reflection of the times. The purist thinks that he is "protecting" the art form by blanketly (?) rejecting the new. I think Wynton can take much credit for keeping the flame of tradition alive. However, one has to ask oneself the question? Ultimately, what does the most damage to art in the overall scheme of things? To try to keep the flame of tradition alive by rejecting the new directions that the art form takes; directions which are a natural part of its process. Or, to accept the new directions with the knowledge that accepting the new doesn’t have to mean forgetting about tradition, while holding the new up to the same standars for defining excellence. By doing the latter, what you end up doing is bringing a larger and younger audience to the art form who will end up discovering the traditional. There is always room for the new and the old, and excellence is not defined by whether it is new or whether it is old.
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Rok -
Not much time this AM. Will write more later. Great answer. Knew of the man but not much more. Have to say again, I enjoyed that video of his jazz band's performance that you posted. Do you not think Wynton has any peers in today's jazz music world? No other equally qualified authoritative voices? If I were serious about pursuing this topic would have to read Marsalis...try to see if he wrote specifically about defining jazz. "I know it when I hear it" doesn't do too much for me. OK. Later and Thanks. |
Jafant asks:
****Over what subject matter?****
Jazz; or, more specifically, the idea that the music that Metheny and (late) Miles played was not jazz.
****Why?****
Its actually quite simple. In the case of Miles, because it was Miles who first criticized the young Wynton, who was being touted as the next big thing, because (and to quote Miles) "he ain't saying shit". It is only human nature that there would be some resentment there on the part of Wynton. Obviously, I can't get inside Wynton's head, but I do agree with the assessment of many in the jazz community that Wynton's rep as an important jazz PLAYER was seriously overstated. This has been commented on many times here and certainly elsewhere. Wynton is a force of nature as virtuoso trumpet player, champion of jazz and its roots, jazz educator, and more; all of that is undeniable and he deserves tremendous credit. However, in my opinion and that of many, Miles was right; he just doesn't have "the thing". His jazz is impressive for what he can do with a trumpet, not for his ability to tell a story when he improvises. He has built an empire around the "preservation" of traditional jazz. I believe he is totally sincere; but, as with the rare well meaning politician, the lines get blurred and it's only natural to fall into the trap of condemning what does not fit his formula.
****Coming from Wynton, it cannot be ignored.****
Of course it can be. It usually isn't ignored; however, not being ignored doesn't necessarily mean being correct. |
*****
not trying to be a provocateur *****
Don't worry. This thread is lousy with those.
*****
But is he "keeper of the flame" as it were? *****
Yes. For all practical purposes, he is.
*****
I'd be real interested knowing what criteria he's using to arrive at those judgements...which is just another way of asking, has he got a "definition" of jazz? *****
The criteria is drawn from his background. He Comes from a very distinguished and established musical family, in the birth place of jazz, New Orleans. Knows the history of the music, from it's roots and beginnings. Is a virtuoso on his instrument. Holds the most important position in the world of Jazz today, leader at JALC. Is the media's go to guy for all things Jazz. Very articulate. Very personable. Educated. Can talk about, explain, and teach the young about the music.
As far as slamming Miles: Coming out of New Orleans, with his pedigree, he was not / is not, intimidated by Miles or anyone else.
He is so important, we have to think in terms of who will be his successor.
We don't think that way about any other player.
Knows how to dress. Looks, talks and acts like a Jazz player.
He is Da man!!
Cheers
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rok - not trying to be a provocateur but why should anyone care what Wynton says about who is playing "Jazz"? Granted he is a talented jazz musician...an accomplished, celebrated artist. But is he "keeper of the flame" as it were? I'd be real interested knowing what criteria he's using to arrive at those judgements...which is just another way of asking, has he got a "definition" of jazz? I am NOT trying to bust your chops on this...thinking it's a discussion worth having is all, touching as it does on some of the recent music suggestions appearing on this thread. |
*****
why did Marsalis slam Miles and Pat? Over what subject matter?****
What is, and what is not, Jazz. Said Pat and Miles were not playing Jazz. Did allow that Miles USED to play Jazz. Whew, thank God for that, seeing as how I have a billion CDs by Miles.
Cheers |
Now, back to the Jazz discussion at hand;
why did Marsalis slam Miles and Pat? Over what subject matter? |
Guys,
I, too defend the U.S. Constitution at all costs. This is the only thing that separates us from the Communist! Hint: we do have many communist in our USA. |
Jeff Beck:
Great ROCK guitarist. The best ever.
Cheers |
The Brecker Brothers:
Virtuosic Funk ? Loved it. And they have managed to avoid the dreaded Wrath of Wynton.
Cheers |
Pat Metheny:
Slammed by Marsalis in the same sentence in which he slammed Miles.
Coming from Wynton, it cannot be ignored.
Cheers |
We have all heard the thingy -- "A Face That Only A Mother Could Love"..
In the same vein, We can now add -- "Music That Only A Musician Could Love".
Cheers |
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1975: Fusion being what it is highlights what I think can be a subtle but still important distinction between the players: those that came to fusion mainly from the rock side of things and those that came to it from the jazz side. To my ears Jeff Beck, besides being a rock guitar God, is the most credible in fusion of all the other rock players who went to the genre. Amazing player with a very wide range of expression and what a tone! Classic record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLkCed3Lm7kme8h_-86GoEsZMNGV3bDxVh&v=LzJ2WA-ubMMThe Brecker Brothers release their debut album as a band. Consummate musicians who would be very influential in the evolution of the playing styles on their respective instruments. Coltrane inspired tenor playing and Miles infused electric trumpet playing in very interesting compositions: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MX3YpPpBydEThe next two records and two of my favorites from 1975 demonstrate how the lines between jazz and fusion, attempts at designation in general, can get blurred. I'm really torn about what to call them, besides simply really good music. I think they are unequivocally jazz, but also capture the spirit of the new genre: Pat Metheny releases his debut solo record with the great Jaco Pastorius on electric bass: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eciUMTPmzm0One of of my favorite unsung trumpet players: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hSAeK1zJOfc |
O-10, I have no doubt that you believe every word and that you would not have said it otherwise. I keep hoping that you will understand that it is always you that throws the first rock. Try not throwing the first rock and you'll see how nicely everyone can get along. 😘
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Frogman, you can not throw a rock, and say you want to avoid a fight; please point out the fiction in what I said, because I believed every word to be the gospel truth, or I would not have said it.
Enjoy the music.
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Don’t worry, I am well aware that CC was fiction. Besides, your statement contains other far more important fiction to comment on. I’m staying out of this one for now, so please leave me out of it. For the time being, I’d much rather post about fusion than fiction; 1975 is burning a whole in my iPad ☺️ |
Rok your first allegiance is to the Constitution of the United States, not to some criminal politicians in high price suits in Washington who no more respect the constitution than they do you and me. While crack addicts, and heroin addicts are addicted to dope, those politicians are addicted to MONEY, and whether you believe it or not "freeway Rickey" would be free if he had paid his dues to the people he was suppose to pay them to, and that's just a grain of sand on a huge mountain.
Who paid for Scott AFB and every plane on it? Who paid for the USS Bataan? Who Paid your salary while you were in the military? How much benefit did those citizens of New Orleans get out of the taxes they paid, and their ancestors paid. Those people paid for the USS Bataan, and they were entitled to benefit from it's use, as well as everything else that belongs to "Citizens of the United States of America"
The people where the Tsunami hit were not even citizens of this country; what entitled them to the benefits they received? Rok, your allegiance is not to criminals in expensive suits but to the United States Constitution.
This country as you believe it to be, has not existed since Charley Chan was a government officer. (Frogman, I know Charley Chan is fiction, but the fact that government agencies functioned like they were suppose to function is the point I'm trying to get across, please don't post that "Charley Chan is fiction)
I, Rok_____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
Think about the oath of allegiance and what is the first thing you defend.
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I never knew the political chain of RESPONSIBILITY ran directly from the 9th ward to the white House.
Now, we all know the local politicians were stupid, criminal and totally incompetent. But, the locals knew that when they voted them in office. They were good at being liberal pawns and good for blasting conservatives on TV, and fooling the poor folks in New Orleans into thinking they were working for them, but totally useless in a crisis.
Where were the cops and the firemen and the local emergency personnel. Right, It was every man for himself. It was, and is, a very CORRUPT city.
Who told all these people to go to the Super-dome? What provisions were made there? Why weren't they evacuated before the storm hit? Where was the Governor and the Louisiana National Guard? Natural disasters are right up their alley.
Katrina didn't just fall out of the sky one clear and beautiful day. Everyone had plenty of warning. Every forecast listed New Orleans as a possible target. What did the local 'leaders' do to prepare? They put ten school buses on 'standby'!!!! You may now laugh or cry.
Some real facts:
New Orleans is still 10 feet below sea level.
The Gulf Of Mexico is still there
Hurricanes still form every year
Katrina made landfall in Mississippi as a cat 3 storm, it just slapped New Orleans on the way to Mississippi.
If a cat 5 storm hits New Orleans head on, there will be no more New Orleans. When that happens, all the locals can do is hope a Republican is in the White House, so they will have someone to blame.
BTW, It seems as if Local politics have taken a new direction since the people realized how they were played. Good For Them.
Cheers
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