Jazz for aficionados

Genius! 

I always find it interesting to read what musicians had to say about other musicians. This is what Trane told Art Pepper, "Why don't you straighten up ? You have so much to offer. Why don't you give the world what you can?"

Art said Trane was so successful that everyone always expected him to be in the forefront. The music he had developed, he could no longer play because that wasn't new anymore. He was continually trying to change, and do the avant-garde thing. He strived so hard for this that it killed him.

BTW Frogman, Art seems to back you up in regard to practice; since he hadn't practiced before that recording, he knew it was impossible to carry it off, but it was already set up, and he had no choice but to go through with it.

Once when he was in the hospital, and couldn't pay the bill, Roland Kirk, and some other musicians got together and played to raise money and help him out. He says what's so unique about this is; he had never met Roland Kirk.

This is for Roland Kirk;

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7E


Enjoy the music.

O-10, c'mon now, there was nothing "sneaky" about it; I think I was pretty direct about it.  It is the gross over-simplification of these topics that I think makes it pointless to discuss; that, and, as I said, the staunch adherence to certain misconceptions.  To use Bird as an example of these "special musicians" (which he of course was) and then dismiss Bird's own assertions about the relevance of "schooling" strikes me as highly ironic.  Beyond that, I don't disagree with your comments "back to the subject of music", I just don't understand what any of that has to do with your initial comment about practicing/rehearsing, your initial comment; it doesn't. This is what, for me, makes it pretty pointless to discuss; hence my comment.  Personally, I would prefer to comment on the Jarrett clip, the great drumming, or the "fly on the wall" moment that I pointed out.  

Miles said the only thing that made a note right or wrong was the note played after it.

Frogman, that was kind of sneaky the way you discussed both drug use and practicing, while suggesting we not discuss the subject any more.

I'm thankful that although we don't see drug use among jazz musicians, it is a serious problem in this country from North to South, and East to West. From time to time, we have wandered off the subject of music, and I have no objections to that.

Back to the subject of music, and special musicians; I had to laugh when "Bird" emphasized the aspect of schooling, like he had been to Juilliard School of Music. Of course schooling is important, but special people like him have done quite well without it, because they loved music and had the desire, drive, and ambition to succeed, even though school was unavailable due to economic reality.

In small "hard bop" jazz groups, spontaneity is the element that makes them sound so fresh. What they played depended on what was played just before their solo. Herbie Hancock told of the time he "goofed" and played wrong notes, but Miles came right behind him and made it come out beautiful.

In music, what ever the situation calls for, is the thing to do.



Enjoy the music.

This (and the dope issue) has been touched upon ad nauseum here; unfortunately I don’t believe that there has been substantive actual discussion. On the issue of "practicing": for starters, there simply isn’t enough commonality in commentators’ understanding of what "practicing" actually is for any discussion to be significant. It would be nice if there were more openness to a point of view based on facts; instead there is staunch adherence to certain misconceptions based on the romance of the tortured artistic savant. Re drug use: while it is undeniable that some jazz musicians, like every other segment of the population, will be driven to drug use because of personal problems, it is a well documented fact that many started using simply because they wanted to emulate everything that their musical heroes (Bird) did; including, and sadly, drug use. Given all this, I think it’s probably best if the topics are dropped. Just one man’s opinion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL08wkpFF-0UWOIRiIj0OiUdM30HlnvzVM&v=Jq7H2E4q83c

Coincidentally, I listened to this great record today. First the important stuff: the subject of drummers has been discussed recently. Jack DeJohnette is a genius and one of the most innovative and influential drummers in jazz. As an aside, while I may have been a bit tough on Ginger Baker, my comments were based on my sense that the sophistication in his playing is nowhere near that of a Jack DeJohnette. Keith Jarrett, the leader of the date, is a rather polarizing figure in jazz. I think the issue is that he has a very unique sense of what the rhythmic feeling of jazz is "supposed" to be for some. I love his playing; after I make the adjustment to that other rhythmic sensibility which is not "swingy" in the usual way. Fantastic ensemble playing with tremendous synergy. Why coincidence? The not so important stuff:

Listen at the end of this great performance of "Stella". At 7:34 we hear Jarrett say "I hope they taped that". Why is he hoping? Aren’t they there to record? Yes, but that was not supposed to be a take; they were rehearsing/practicing. It is not uncommon for recording engineers to have the tape rolling during rehearsals and sound checks so as not to miss a potentially great performance. This was a perfomance of a standard tune with no unusual arrangement. Imagine if Jarrett had brought a brand new composition that the other players were seeing (on the printed page) for the first time. They practice.  (Oops, I guess I didn't drop it 😉)

Acman, no one can get to where these special people are without practicing; no more than a professional tennis player can get to where he is without "practicing"; but, after a "special" musician gets to be a professional musician, when he's performing, he's also "practicing".

Hard Bop jazz musicians are in no way similar to "concert" musicians; they do not play the same thing time after time; their minds are as active as their fingers, searching for something new and different.

Did you see the intensity of concentration on Art Peppers face when he was with the rhythm section? Got to be right on time, not a split second early or late.


Enjoy the music.

Maybe so O-10.  I apologize for letting past arguments filter into the current conversation.

Kind of ironic.

If I said anything that would be contrary to what "Bird" said, I would of course be wrong.

If you think I said something contrary to what "Bird" said, you misinterpreted what I said.


Enjoy the music

We seem to loop from time to time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsqYo9r_dE

Ellis Marsalis

It's a funny thing about dope and jazz musicians; most people think that somehow the dope helps them to become fantastic musicians. I don't know how they can think that, when the musicians themselves will tell you otherwise. "Bird" was a "junky" before he became a musician, and he told other musicians not to do what he was doing. "Lady Day" would have been a "junky" if she never sang one note because of the gigantic mental problems that were caused by incidents in her childhood.

If you have read books related to all the different reasons people use dope, you would know that none of the reasons say becoming a jazz musician will entice you into using heroin, and make you a dope addict.

Most of the jazz musicians who became junkies, would be junkies if they never blew a horn.

Now that heroin addiction is a nation wide problem, maybe people will discover there's a better way to solve that problem, than incarceration.



Enjoy the music.

Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section is a 1957 jazz album by saxophonist Art Pepper with Red Garland, Paul Chambers, and Philly Joe Jones, who at the time were the rhythm section for Miles Davis's quintet. The album is considered a milestone in Pepper's career.

According to Pepper, the album was recorded under enormous pressure, as he first learned of the recording session the morning he was due in the studio, and he had never met the other musicians, all of whom he greatly admired. He was playing on an instrument in a bad state of repair, and was suffering from a drug problem.



                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC04bkiNrlc



Ghosthouse, what people don't realize, is the fact that these are very special people, special beyond many individuals comprehension; if they are performing on a regular basis, they don't have to practice or rehearse.



                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP5YBfFZvN8





Enjoy the music.

Sorry, not the way it was or is, O-10; and, certainly not for recordings. When hired sidemen show up to a recording session they have to rehearse and learn either new material (if the record will be of new original music), or new arrangements of standards. The rehersal takes place in the studio before they do a "take". Even if the recording is by a working band they usually rehearse before a recording session so as to be very sharp and not waste studio time. The sometimes maligned "alternate takes" were often nothing more than rehearsals.

btw, that clip was kind of interesting.

Speaking of rehearsals, the "greats" would meet at Rudy's, discuss what they were going to play, and jam for the recording; you might have one of those records in your collection.

Ray Charles hired a new musical director, who complained because David "Fathead" Newman didn't come to rehearsals. Fathead said "Talk to the man Ray". When Ray sided with the musical director, Fathead walked.

The "greats" don't think too much of "Rehearsals"; unless of course you're talking "Big Band", and my collection doesn't talk much big band.


Enjoy the music.

How's this for unusual music?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw9-RE80EEg

I had a feeling that being a guitarphile you would like Martino.  Probably my favorite guitarist ever; any genre.  Keep in mind that those clips are from his "fusion" period.  Martino is a bebopper (post-bop) all the way and hence the melodic sense you heard in those clips.  Considered "God" by many jazz guitarists he has a very extensive and diverse discography; check it out.  I posted this recently; astounding!:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqJwJzGB0g

I must say, I think this is the first time I have heard The Dregs referred to as a little boring.  Might explain why I consider some of Stevens' playing over the top.  Here's a couple more:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IrL4R9x9A14

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwsR1shno8

Btw, I had a feeling that the subject of Zappa would come up.  Colaiuta is a monster drummer who leans more to the fusion side of things.

Dixie Dregs - yeah, okay. Excellent musicianship. REALLY good. Musically it’s a little boring (well the bit sampled here) BUT I’ll listen to more by them. Great drumming. Heard of Steve Morse, of course. On the other hand I never listened to them as a band! Always mixed them up with Dexys Midnight Runners and that horrible hit THEY had so avoided ’em. Totally mixed up and mistaken on my part, of course. Thanks for the links.

Pat Martino? - FREAKING A!!! Why was I not told about this sooner!!!
Those tracks are sublime. To me, more interesting than anything from Weather Report I can call to mind. Those are some complex (time signatures?). Not just technical excellence (esp. Pat’s guitar and his drummer, Kenwood Dennard) but somebody actually gifted with a sense of MELODY. THANK YOU much. If Joyous Lake draws me back for repeated listening, it’ll be a buy. Found it and saved it to my albums on Spotify. Listening to the whole thing now as I do some paperwork this AM.  Best thing that's happened so far today.

Frogman - I’ll comment here briefly on a couple of things from your latest posts. Will get back afterwards on the new links you included.

1) Pleased to read we share great esteem for arrangers. In the statement from me that you quote, might be more appropriate had I said, "the ROLE of the arranger...." since, as you know, it’s not always a separate individual but sometimes the actual composer, one of the musicians or the producer (George Martin comes to mind). Regardless, the arrangement can certainly make or break a piece or take it over the top in a good way.

Gil Evans on Sketches of Spain is a GREAT example. Someone on A’gon a (year?) ago posted notes that were written at the time of the SoS session(s). Some studio employee - an eye witness - documented at least one of the sessions in great detail...what people were wearing, the personnel, who played what, interactions between Miles, Evans and others. It’s a great read. I’ll look around for it but you do too. It is well worth it. A nice word picture of that time.

2) re Black Light Syndrome. Agree with you for the most part: an inconsistent effort by some talented musicians. Rocker Steve is over the top in a not so good way - esp. on track 1 and the closer. This brings up the matter of "taste" and artistry, I think - factors that derive from both objective and subjective elements but, to me, constitute a 3rd area of evaluation. See my 9/22 9:19PM post (unless bored with the topic!).

Honestly, while the sonics of BLS are very good, there are only a few tracks I listen to repeatedly for the the sake of the music: 3) Duende & 6) Book of Hours. Both display some flamenco influence. To a much lesser extent, I revisit 4) title track & 5) Falling in Circles. If the entire recording were up to the quality of 3 & 6, it would be a stellar album.

Situation Dangerous, the second by this trio, is also inconsistent from my perspective. I don’t think the sonics are quite as good, either. Seems little less airy and spacious.

By the way, not that I'm that big a Bozzio fan but I will say I think he is the real deal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcerKvzcyvQ&ab_channel=CalVid

Comments on the FZ composition performed above (The Black Page) in this mini-bio of another great drummer
http://www.lastudiomusicians.info/vinniecolaiuta.htm

I will check out those links you posted next. Good chatting.

Curious, what do you think of this?: 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61k627ElDLg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UM4TOcDuC14

****Might be the person I admire most in any number of musical endeavors: THE ARRANGER. So often they are the ones that bring the magic.****

So true, I recently made the comment that this might be a good subject to explore on this thread.  When this subject comes up, the first recording that comes to mind is always Miles' "Sketches Of Spain" and to a somewhat lesser degree "The Birth Of The Cool"; both , recordings which, at the end of the day, are arranger Gil Evans' records, eventhough Miles gets the attention.  Could Miles have been replaced by someone else?  Arguably, yes.  Could Gil Evans have been?  No way!

BTW, I listened to "Black Light Syndrome" in its entirety; the first couple of cuts twice.  Thanks for the recommendation.  Tough record to comment on.  I think it's a great record.  A great record by the standards of a particular musical sensibility.  Rock and roll sensitivity all the way; with a bit of "glam" thrown in (and more than a bit of Flamenco in one spot).  Steve Stevens is a very impressive guitar player.  The recording is really about him and his amazing virtuosic guitar playing; and, it is also, over the top.  Only because of the hype, I am less impressed with Bozzio and wonder what the band could do with someone like Dave Weckl.  Stevens has a very wide tonal palette with his use of distortion and effects; but, for instance, his use of the Whammy bar is way over the top and sounds tasteless more than anything to me.  A more contained and disciplined range would be more musically effective imo.  On the other hand, a "take no prisoners", "let it all hang out" attitude is part of the R&R ethos; hence the quandary.  I realize this may seem like a contradiction of my comments re the first Bozzio and co. clip, but still....For me, when I want those particular buttons pushed I would prefer something like these; which strike me as having a little more grit and a little less "look at me!" glam:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YHqXhwtsLxk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oN0qYUeV0KQ

Btw, I really like and admire your inquisitiveness and open-mindedness.  Regards.

Ghosthouse, no, it hasn't been done, and Frogman would be the person who could shed light on the subject.

During the time I was in close contact with a jazz musician in 69, he never rehearsed or held rehearsals. The first set I witnessed; him, and what's called "pick up musicians" gathered about an hour before the set, and discussed what was to go down. I listened intently, but understood nothing.

Professional "hard bop" musicians have a language that only they understand. Since he was a friend of mine, I was really nervous before the set kicked off; "Ain't no way this is going to come out right" was racing through my mind, because this was a hard bop audience, and the place was packed.

That was a memorable set, and it went as he knew it would; the musicians played as though they they had been doing it for a lifetime.



Enjoy the music.

Finding old jazz rehearsal videos might be tough.

Did find some interesting stuff while looking. Probably already known to the regulars here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sru1t6YpE&ab_channel=Milestones:AMilesDavisArchive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJj4YXWPLI&ab_channel=J%C3%BAlioPimentel

Ah...okay, Frogman. I’m thinking it might be the breathier reed sound of the sax that I picked up on. Didn’t realize one was in use. I heard a softer leading-edge texture and that's what made me think a synth had been used.

While I don’t know enough music theory to fully appreciate your explanation of the chord voicing, I think I DID actually notice it without understanding the "why". At one point, Frisell’s guitar comes out of the mix to solo and I realized it had been there all along playing chords (prior to soloing) pretty much in unison with the "horns" [what do you call it when it’s a mix of sax, trumpet, trombone?]

Might be the person I admire most in any number of musical endeavors:
THE ARRANGER. So often they are the ones that bring the magic.

Orpheus - How about some links to rehearsal videos? Show stuff being hammered out...who does what, who plays what, etc., etc. (apologies if it’s already been mentioned and done to death here).

Frisell: real brass all the way. Alto saxophone, trumpet and trombone. What’s really cool about the way he used the brass is that he voiced the brass chords in a similar way as a guitar player would play those chords on a guitar. Notice how similar the sonorities of those brass chords are to those of the strummed guitar chords. Don’t know for a fact, but I would bet that it was Frisell who wrote the horn arrangement.

@acman3  - 

...and for the Matthew Stevens recommendation.  

Thanks for introducing me to that particular piece by Frisell, @acman3. I’m enjoying it and have found on Spotify the full Blues Dream album it is from. That’s not anything I’d come across previously or had in my Spotify album collection. I do expect it’s something I’ll be spending time exploring in the next few days. Not sure it’s really brass (synth?) but I do like those "brass chorale" type chords he’s playing over.

(Thanks as well for the earlier links to Sao Paolo Underground and Kenny Dorham.  I'll be checking out SPU further.)

Beautiful Frisell, thanks!  

Thanks Frogman for heads up!


I wanted to play this for Ghosthouse. What would a world without Frisell look like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a23rsvk_Z8

Sorry for the double post (late night!); it should have been this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kqI5BHaDgj4

And while I'm at it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rkY_zTKzPCY

Today is John Coltrane’s birthday:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1kyN5puQjvQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w62Nr2r8PQE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1kyN5puQjvQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2HN2y0yV8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx-TxiBi43c

TRane/Bags

Alex, I've liked Flamenco since childhood, when the only time I heard it was in a bullfighting movie set in spain, or a cowboy movie in Mexico.

Rok, insisted on "classical jazz" because of the title of the thread, and that's how I got in the habit of posting nothing else, but my record collection is very diverse.

I thoroughly enjoyed all the clips you posted; those will be added to my collection.


Enjoy the music.

Orpheus, please dont get me wrong, this remark is written in a funny tone, but when I listen to your non jazz suggestions I would never guess that the same person stands behind them.
Some of the guitar and flamenco classics...

Carlos Montoya
https://youtu.be/h_SxWClCwcU

https://youtu.be/rMXQtOl8sM0

C.M. playing St.Louis Blues...interesting?
https://youtu.be/Ko-pTH3xwno

The great Andreas Segovia
https://youtu.be/9efHwnFAkuA?list=PL20AD62A44895D65C

https://youtu.be/ZyX71BrsCHY

Manitas de Plata (he was sometimes considerd as not true to the flamenco tradition)
 https://youtu.be/SBA00QCUUtE

Frogman, when I'm in a "Flamenco" mood, here's another guitarist I go to along with Paco. Otmar Liebart has a kind of forlorn sound sometimes, like way out in the middle of nowhere, but he is most certainly different from any guitarist I can think of.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh1isv5s0uo



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfq-AgfUlHY


I have both these albums, and there is a consistent mood that is sustained on both of them.



Enjoy the music.



       

Frogman -
Battle performing Bachianas Brasileires No. 5 is quite something. It might not be opera but the vocal skills are certainly derived from that.

@alexatpos
If you’ve never seen the 1981 film, Diva, I hope you will.
If you have already, then I hope you will enjoy again this scene...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFg-M6c5tU0&ab_channel=AtaGET

Well, Callas was right there and I couldn't resist.  Great photos too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pkNpl-tZIw&ab_channel=Klibanarios

I’m behind a good deal in the discussion(s) and links recently posted here.

Frogman, As usual great comments. Well articulated. I don’t have the expertise but your MJ vs Bily Ocean comparison of "objective" merit strikes me as correct. The only point I’d make is the professional excellence demonstrated in the MJ video gets trumped by my indifference (lack of response) on an emotional level. Not a luxury someone in the biz (a producer, engineer, arranger, session musician etc.) can indulge, of course. Probably just stating the obvious. BUT I also wonder (beyond technical considerations and purely subjective responses) at what point do artistic valuations come into play? Is this stuff worthwhile? Will it be relevant 50, 100 years from now? Does it have roots in a formal artistic tradition? (not wording this last one quite right). I’m sure this isn’t a complete list. So I dismiss MJ and Caribou Queen because, based on my aesthetic, they don’t make the grade. Is that just another purely subjective response? OR if I’m informed and have "good taste" (whatever that is) does my judgement have some objective standing and carry some real weight?!.

Not sure a click track is the cause of everything you heard in the BLS "Spiral" track BUT it might be symptomatic. If you get a chance, give a listen to Black Light Syndrome (the earlier recording by this trio). Can’t remember where I read about it (liner notes? All Music Guide? Amazon reviews??) but this was supposedly more improvisational than Situation Dangerous (where Spiral is from). Situation Dangerous being a recording of actual compositions. If my memory is accurate, your comments about Spiral are certainly consistent with this.  While I didn't pick up on it, I’m impressed you detected what might be called "studied-ness" in the performance.

Stevens is reportedly a fan of flamenco. You can certainly hear flamenco in Spiral. Haven’t heard it but he has an album called, "Flamenco A-GoGo". That’s one I’d definitely like to hear.

No problem about not liking the Ginger Baker Trio performance, though I am surprised. From what I’ve seen of that performance, I thought Baker’s playing very restrained and maybe intentionally so to give more room to Haden and Frisell. You know of course Baker (and Jack Bruce) started out as jazz musicians and were supposedly well regarded as such. I’m not expert (yet again) on jazz drummers but some folk do have a more favorable view of Baker in that role! But again, no problem. Mainly posted those links to showcase Frisell’s playing.

Haven’t gotten to all your links yet. I do appreciate your thoughtful and in-depth remark on mine.

Catching up on the last couple of days' worth of posts.  Thanks to all for the great music.

O-10, I liked John Handy's "Naima"; a lot.  I really liked the sense of freedom in not having a traditional ballad pulse, but rather slowly harmonies without an obvious beat.  And love the way they ended the tune.  I have always liked John Handy's playing.  There is a sense of honesty and lack of pretense in his playing; or, at least, that's the feeling it evokes in me.  He doesn't scream loudly through the horn and is generally understated with a pretty alto sound.  I liked "Where Go The Boats" as a composition, but didn't think the playing on the non-traditional instruments was particularly good and thought the synth sound was a little cheesy.  Liked the tune, though.

Ghosthouse, listened to the Bozzio and Ginger Baker clips; thanks for those.

Stevens is a great player as are Bozzio and Levin .  I really liked the tune which borrows a little from Nouveau Flamenco to add to that nice folky, if not New Agey, vibe.  I love that acoustic guitar driven sound.  I have a couple of issues with the performance however.  As good as it is, there is a "cautious" feeling to it and things feel a bit too "organized".  I would bet that they played it to a click track.  One can usually tell when players are playing to a click track; there is a "safe" quality to the feeling.  The focus becomes being with the click instead of entirely with each other; potential imperfections and all.  The overdubbed guitar is fine, but not the synth strings sound; luckily is was pretty subtle volume wise.  That tune was begging for a small string section instead of synth.  Really nice guitar solo.  Again, probably one of several takes.  Nothing inherently wrong with this production approach, but it does take a little of the energy away.  Still, really nice tune and I really enjoyed it.  Something in a different genre that pushes similar buttons for me, but has a little more abandon might be:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eU2IpZoTMdE

The Ginger Baker clip I didn't like; sorry.  Thank god for Charlie Haden!  He was the rock in that trio and sounds fabulous.  Baker is unquestionably more than just a great rock drummer; but, he's no jazz drummer.  He does ok, but he just doesn't have the chops and comfort in that language to really contribute on the level of the great jazz drummers and seems to be tagging along Haden's amazing pulse.  Speaking of great jazz drummers, some of my favorite Frisell was with Paul Motian:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFZ3X9CFuA

Love Lovano on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaY1GVeHqKw

Another great drummer.  What do you think of this?:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H-wtZhpxtVE

Alex, I loved those Rene Thomas clips.  And J.R. Montrose!  What a nice player.  Swinging and intelligent playing.  Thanks for those.  Getz?  What can one say?  Genius.

Return to Forever.

Frogman, here is a sax man that I think we over looked; I like this, but you can probably find something better.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdgB_L0_II4


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IZb8AJQ7ac



Enjoy the music.

Yes Ghosthouse, Tina Brooks is a story even sadder than most sad stories; too sad to comment on, on such a beautiful day where I am.

I went to the grocery store today, and everyone was smiling and helpful; when that happens to you, you know you've gotten old. Even young attractive ladies; and dirty old man that I am, I would like to think there was some other reason for their helpful attitude, but I'm not senile yet.

Getting back to music, there was a time when I dreamed of far away places with strange sounding names. This music takes you to the mountains of Peru, and the Inca's sun God; there is even an Incan high priestess singing praises to the Sun God.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weYhSmkBQho


Enjoy the music.

Hi O - Glad you did post about MJ.  Nice not to be alone on that topic.  

Tina Brooks (had to look him up) - another said story, unfortunately.

One good thing about getting older is a greater indifference about what other people think.  

Ghosthouse, no offense taken at all. I posted that MJ clip only as an example of, as you pointed out, the wide range of Stevens’ creds. I don’t exactly run out and buy MJ records (or listen to his music), but do appreciate his talent....within the pop music world. Like you and O-10, "not my bag". But, I always appreciate a very high level of craft; and, stereotypes and all, there is a high level of craft in that video from a (pop) production standpoint and even from a playing standpoint....again, within that genre. Speaking of unintended comparison/contrast: that MJ clip makes, in my mind, a good contrast between it and the recently posted Billy Ocean clip which some might put in the same general category of pop music. Moreover, I think it serves to explain what I mean with these comments. Like the style or not, from an objective point of view the band in that video rocks, MJ dances and sings his a-- off, and all stereotypes aside, Stevens shows he can thrash as well a anybody. The Billy Ocean tune, for me, has a mediocre disco beat, is a lame tune, and the featured saxophone playing sucks. This makes the MJ clip good and the BO clip bad. I like all genres as long as core musical values are high. Would I choose to listen to the MJ clip instead of countless other things? Of course not. Does appreciating what it does do right inform my appreciation of music in general? I believe so. Probably the only area in life where I am not becoming more and more conservative. Regards.

I'm enjoying Tina Brooks and Freddie Hubbard, "Gypsie Blue" mightely.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sesame_(Freddie_Hubbard_album)

Sometime ago I was accused of being old fashioned. I fought long and hard to ward that off; now I say "I'm old fashioned, so what". As good as Tina Brooks and Freddie Hubbard are sounding, it don't make no difference.

Bit of philosophy: I can't live in this skin, or that skin; I got to live in the skin I'm in.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoUhsjXtWcY



Enjoy the music.

Ghosthouse, I wasn't going to respond to that post, because I have nothing significant to say in regard to Michael Jackson; as it is, I'm responding to your post to let you know that you have company; just not our bag, or maybe we're too old, or both.


Enjoy the music.

O - Thanks for those 3 of Bohemia After Dark.  Didn't know BAD or Oscar Pettiford.  Interesting to compare different performances of the same music.  Have to say, enjoyed Ms. Krautscheid's performance very much.  Well done and nicely succinct!  

Thanks to you too on the Renee Thomas, Alex.  Hadn't heard of him before.  Yes - on the panel between Haden and drummer.  I think the same thing is in evidence on that Ginger Baker Trio video.  

Here is another guitarist which was not mentioned often. European artsist, started to play in Us during 50’s and continued to do so for next 20 years. Played with C.Baker,S.Rollins and S.Getz. among many others. Here are some links, first from his album as a leader.

Rene Thomas
’Guitar Groove’, from 1960.
https://youtu.be/Vi5sjNSv-v0

https://youtu.be/Ju6gDe6Tne0

One from live album ’Dynasty’ made by Stan Getz, from 1971.

https://youtu.be/MWcRtztr35A

Ghosthouse, saw C.Haden live once, he had a plastic? and transparent wall between him and drummer...

Very apt description of Frisell’s style, Frogman, as well as the disconnect I tend to feel with him. Enjoyed your comments. I do find the videos of him as part of that Ginger Baker Trio concert worth watching. The first (1/4) is very enjoyable but I found myself getting annoyed with him early on in the second. I’ve always appreciated and agreed with the objective/subjective distinction points you’ve made from time to time.

Might have misled you by posting the link to Spiral (Bozzio, Levin, Stevens) in the same post with the Frisell comments. Apologies. I should have posted that separately. Intended it simply for appreciation of a beautiful instrumental with some "improvisational" elements. Wasn’t intending to solicit a "compare and contrast" of the two! - though I don’t argue with any of the points you make about Frisell vs Stevens. If I could only listen to one of them, I’d definitely pick Frisell.

Stevens on the 2 BLS albums is, however, a lot different than you’d expect from his work with Billy Idol or even in that way-over-the-top Michael Jackson video. Yeesh...back lighting, smoke and wind machines, big hair, black leather, screaming crowd...did they leave any rock stereotypes out of that one? I’m more from rock/blues than jazz but that video is documentary evidence of what I loathed most about MTV! Gimme that Ginger Baker Trio performance any day! (Hope you won’t be offended by my mini-rant here).

I know MJ is widely respected as a great talent - I’m not disputing that - but his train left the station without me ever being on board. Not that my lack of interest matters a whit to anyone else! "Just sayin’" so as to provide some further context on personal taste.  

Later.

I just realized I haven't submitted any music in awhile, here's something for you; a comparison between the old and the new;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0II1WOTyowo


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EwGijmqKc


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE1BIXdm38E



Enjoy the music.

Ghosthouse, you hit the head of the objective/subjective nail.  That Frisell is an excellent guitarist is undeniable as you say; that's objective.  That his style doesn't move you is subjective.  That, of course, does not mean his style won't move other listeners who have a different sensibility than you do; or any of us.  We all have musical sensibilities based on our personalities and life experiences.  Personally, I sometimes enjoy artists whose craft I appreciate and whose sensibilites challenge my own.  I like Frisell's unique, cool and somewhat intellectual style informed by everything from country to classical.

I also like Steve Steven's very visceral style; in some ways the antithesis of Frisell.  A comparison of the two strikes me as an apples vs oranges comparison.  Stevens comes from the Rock and Roll side of things while Frisell comes more from the Jazz side of things.  There would be musical settings where Stevens couldn't touch Frisell and vise versa.  I like them both and both move me depending on what I am looking for at any given time (MY mood).  I can't imagine Frisell wearing these shoes, just as I couldn't imagine Stevens crafting a great introspective solo over complex and obtuse harmonic changes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yUi_S6YWjZw

What a shame and waste of talent (Jackson).