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Irony, Rok. "Noise making" (pardon the typo) was quoting you about another fusion outfit.
But you and Wynton go ahead and keep guarding that House of Pure Jazz, meanwhile the party has moved a LONG way down the road from there.
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If that is Jazz, Grits ain't groceries, eggs ain't poultry and Mona Lisa was a man. But, to your credit, you did call it noise.
Cheers |
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Big! Bill Evans here- the best in my book of knowledge.
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Froman, some time ago there was 'discussion' here about influence od classical music on jazz.
Just watched some documentary, about influence of tempo (meter) on music, and it seems to me that there is no dobut (if there was ever, for some, at least) that jazz pianists draw influence from impressionists.
I wonder, do you think (hear) that when you listen to majority of artists or it is quality of only some?
I think, that if somebody could add rythm section on some of Debussy's music, that many could easily mistaken it for Bill Evans work...
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Alex, I can't disagree with anything you wrote. CTI was a great commercial package; right down to the impressive album cover art. I don't know wether Creed Taylor's motivation was purely financial or wether it was an interest in bringing jazz to a broader audience, but I suspect there are many serious jazz lovers out there who got their feet wet with the more accessible CTI sound. A favorite CTI track (eventhough I'm not crazy about some of the rest of the record). But, why electric piano? I think it would have been much better with acoustic; but, electric piano was the sound of "modern" and "hip". Not for Desmond, imo; I think it just makes the track sound a little "Jazz-lite". Still, beautiful. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnxsGMXRME |
Alex, I was hoping someone else would chime in, but yes I have that Eric Gale record. A real bluesy album with a lot of good playing, as you would expect from the personnel.
Gale plays with great tone and supports the other soloist well, when not soloing himself. Persons is his usual Great self! Liston Smith is unusually subdued. Anyway that is my quick take on the record. |
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Usually I would say they sound ’baroque’- esk, because of their ’grandeur’ caracter of production, but one could not attribue symmetry and strict regulations to any jazz music (as to ’baroque’), to be called it that way.
So, I kind of used that term to ’derogatively imply that the style was frivolous or merely modish’.
Is it ’superficial or just poor taste’, one has to conclude for himself.
Perhaps I would not say that they lack intimicy or warmth, but they sound over produced for me, with lots of ’extra’ added.
No matter that musicanship is often superb, still it sounds (imho) that work is result more of applied craft than of genuine inspiration.
When we look now at those recording in a context (as you allways say) of time when they were recorded, we know that they were made in a moment when jazz was in decline, so those musical arrangments had the purpose to bring or to hold attention of broader public.
I cant know for sure was there any succes in that atempt, but aldo I have some of those albums I do not consider them to be best representatives of jazz music in general.
I do not want to bring back that constant ’discussion’ but sometimes, at least when my simple taste is in question, I feel that ’jazz jazz’ had finished with its 'best' days some years prior to that period.
There is a guitar player, on lots of CTI albums, whose tone I like very much. Its Eric Gale. There is one his album 'In a jazz tradition' that I am curious to hear. Maybe somebody has it?
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Alex, I am intrigued by your use of the word "Rococo" to describe music on CTI recordings. Obviously not fair to generalize, but they definitely have a certain sound that shows, I think, a heavy hand on the part of the producer. I have often felt a little cheated by some CTI recordings. Somehow, RVG's Blue Note recordings tend to give more of a sense that the musicians are more in control of the final sound; somehow, the music tends to sound more intimate and warm. If I understand what you mean correctly, I completely agree. |
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Frogman, I liked the more 'mellow' things, the ones that have faster tempo are played well but I do not find them appealing. For what I can say, I miss certain 'sustain' in his notes. (Flanagan is someone with opposite style who I like) But, as Acman has said, I would never guess that these recordings were more than 40 years old, when I first heard them I thought that they sound like some contemporary jazz that is played recently. https://youtu.be/FnA-g9iw9tcThank you for your explanation, I certainly enjoy reading such notes |
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Alex, how do you like Fukui? Randy, if you are a Stanley Turrentine fan, be sure to check out some of his pre-CTI stuff as well. He had a great way of telling a story. Les McCann; major swagger: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nSREpSL-Yqk |
Randy, on amazon you can find remastered editions that are dated from 2010. I have not listened to any of those. CTI recordings are quite good from the start, but the music is somewhat 'Rococo', so it did not inspired me to chase better editions.
As for other RVG work, I prefer older, before remastering, editions when its BN label in question, but I like his remasterd editions on Prestige.
Hope this helps...
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Thx, frogman - do you happen to know what year(s) they remastered the CTI releases?
I have quite a few on CD but if the music is significantly better... |
Alex, thanks for the Ryo Fukui clips; I was familiar with the name, but had not heard any of his records. Listening to both records was an interesting experience. The first clip, "Mellow Dream", did not impress me very much to be honest. His ability as a pianist did impress and is undeniable; but, while Fukui is a very accomplished pianist, he didn’t impress me as a stylist on that record. On the ballads he shows a clear Bill Evans influence and even an occasional bit of McCoy Tyner in his chord voicings; he clearly did his homework. In my comments re the Metheny/ Vu recording I mentioned the feeling that the great improvisers are able to convey of their improvised solos "going somewhere". It’s something that is hard to put into words and is obviously something that is subjective in part. But, for me, a great improvised solo either conveys the feeling of "beginning-development-ending" in a way that sustains interest in the listener, or it doesn’t. Is the player able to connect the phrases that he plays in a way that each phrase relates to and builds on the one before it in some way? This gives the solo forward movement instead of each phrase sounding like isolated events; that is the genius of great improvisation. On "Mellow Dream", Fukui doesn’t accomplish that, imo; his solos come across as individual isolated phrases that give his solos a kind of static feeling and don’t hold my attention, nor create a feeling of anticipation of where he is going. The surprise for me was that on the record "Scenery" he is much more succesfull in this regard and I find his soloing more interesting and tastier. On this record I hear a more relaxed rhythmic feel. Even more than the static quality in his soloing on "Mellow Dream", the main issue that I had with his playing was the feeling of playing very much on the "front side" of the beat which gives the music a subtle feeling of being rushed; at times, feeling a bit out of control like a ball rolling down the stairs. Clearly a personal preference for me, but his playing on that record is not relaxed enough for me and is lacking in the swagger that the great jazz pianists project. This gets a lot better on "Scenery" and I find this record, overall, much more enjoyable, especially on the ballads. I didn’t like his drummer Fukui (relation?) that much; pretty good time keeper, but his solos are a little rudimentary. I enjoyed listening to the records for the honesty and lack of pretense in his playing and I am glad to have heard his work. His playing conveys a feeling of "happy" as opposed to the brooding and melancholy feeling of someone like Bill Evans. From that standpoint they are worth hearing. However, if these were in my collection, would they be the first that come to mind when I want to listen to piano trio Jazz? I’m not so sure. Thanks for the intro and I look forward to Acman3’s impressions. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g-jsW61e_-wOne of my favorite piano players that "nobody ever heard of": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AGK3cmVD9CU |
randy, I think the CTI record you are thinking of is Stanley Turrentine's "Sugar" (with Hubbard and Benson). Btw, I believe most of the CTI catalogue has already been remastered. Nice record and as Acman3 said it is, like a lot of CTI's, very good sounding. |
I love those CTI recordings!
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the main one was an LP with Benson, Turrentine, Hubbard et al. on it, but I forget the name
White Rabbit also |
Randy, Which of the CTI recordings would you like to see remastered? I think I only have a few George Benson's and some Freddie Hubbard's. I was going through a " only hard bop is real jazz phase", when they came out,
I do remember they sounded pretty good, but, as I said, not an expert on CTI. |
Alex,
I just got around to listening to your Ryo Fukui, (I have a tough time keeping my sophomoric humor under control )
I am going to need more time with it, as sometimes I really like the playing and at other times I am thinking good not great.
The Japanese musicians are almost all new to me. Most, that I have heard, seem to be clone's of the older style of Jazz, but I hear interesting things from Ryo Fukui the more I listen.
Thanks for bringing him to my attention!! |
Actually the All-music record was" Sign of 4". Not really necessary to listen. It was just another unusual Metheny recording.
Come to think of it, I don’t think I have made it through all 3 CD’s.
Sounds like a challenge. |
Acman -
That seems true for me as well.
The older I get, the less I know.
If you have track and album names for those Pat Metheny selections you wanted me to hear on AllMusic, please advise and I will try to find them on Spotify (or Tidal).
Thanks.
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Ghosthose,
Every time I learn something new, it opens up ten areas I never knew existed, and shows me again just how ignorant I am.
More than a little humbling. |
Frogman -
Thank you very much for those descriptive paragraphs capturing Cuong Vu's trumpet playing and the "Acid Kiss" song structure. It rounds out the listening experience for me. I liked Acid Kiss (really, the whole LP) but specifically what about it ? and why?? As a "word guy" (lots of years doing technical writing) it's frustrating not to have the requisite vocabulary to talk (other than vaguely) about what we're hearing. "Writing clarifies thought", someone said. Related to this, your words help "objectify" the "subjective" experience. Good stuff. THANKS again.
Regarding PM...I don't consider myself a newcomer to the PM admiration society BUT haven't paid much attention to what's he's done since, say, "Road to You". Have just a couple of things that he did after that but definitely out of touch. Nice to be connecting again and finding more depth than I would have anticipated. |
****Pat’s definitely an experimenter and innovator...would be a mistake to dismiss him as a new agey/smooth jazz player. ****
Exactly! Welcome to the Metheny admiration club 😍; the guy is a fantastically creative musician with a very wide range. While I, myself, have used the term "new agey" to describe some of his music, it was not meant as dismissive in any way and was used simply as a way to describe, for lack of a better term, one aspect of the flavor of some of the music that he is most known for; and, I would never call any of his music "smooth jazz" as I would describe that genre.
Imo, the "Acid Kiss" performance is absolutely fantastic; thanks for that Acman3! Cuong Vu is a very impressive trumpet player with a very interesting palette of tonal colors with his use of note bends, growls and other "vocal" sounds. He does this with the technical control and tone integrity of the conservatory-trained player that he is. Most importantly, he passes the acid test (pun) for any improviser, the ability to sustain the feeling that the solo is going somewhere with a minimum of notes; a particularly difficult thing to do when the "tune" doesn’t have an obvious harmonic framework that "leads" the listener’s ear forward. Notice that I said "improviser", not, "Jazz player"; I will leave it to others to decide for themselves whether this is "Jazz" or not. It is for me and meets my criteria for it; but, I don’t really care, I think it’s really good music. Not easy listening and a little unsettling; but really good.
****Maybe Frogman can weigh in with some music theory based description of what they are doing.****
"Acid Kiss" is, in the most basic sense, no different than most other "tunes" and a jazz performace of it: there is the statement of a melody, the repetition of the melody followed by improvised solos, and ending with a return to the melody. In this case, there is no obvious harmonic underpinning; it is only implied by the melody. Likewise, the rhythm or pulse is also implied and there isn’t an obvious "beat" until much later in the performace. The melody (tune) is heard at the very beginning as played by the trumpet. In the repetition of the melody Vu begins to improvise while sticking very close to the tune’s very simple outline and he continues to improvise while straying farther and farther away from the tune until 3:31 when he starts hinting at the melody again until 3:51 when Metheny joins him to make an obvious return to the melody in unison with Vu. It is during this unison melody interlude that drummer Ted Poor starts to define the rhythm and starts to lay down an obvious beat for the first time . At 5:00 Metheny solos over what is now essentially a 4/4 Rock rhythm. At 7:20 Vu reintroduces the melody while Metheny continues to solo and then "creeps" back in to join Vu with another unison statement of the melody. I love the way they end the tune: one final solo statement of the melody by Vu with some of the raunchiest and most interesting sounds I have heard come out of Metheny’s guitar synthesizer "accompanying" the melody and one final percussion statement by Poor.
This is is the kind of music that may sound like noise to some listeners and, in fact, the players would probably not object to the term "noise" being used to describe ONE aspect of this music. Fantastic noise, imo.
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Today will do an exception and will post two albums that I dont have, of japanese jazz pianist that I have never heard before. Friend of mine introduced me to his work. Curious to know is anybody here familiar with his music? Ryo Fukui, album is 'Mellow dream' from 1977. https://youtu.be/AwtF3lCPXeo'Scenery', from 1976. https://youtu.be/Hrr3dp7zRQYThoughts? |
Acman - I'm having a problem with Allmusic as well as All About Jazz. They don't like I'm running AdBlocker but when I do disable for their sites get buried with pop up ads. If you have album/track references for those samples I might be able to find them on Spotify.
The story I repeated about Zero Tolerance was from an Amazon reviewer.
Pat's definitely an experimenter and innovator...would be a mistake to dismiss him as a new agey/smooth jazz player.
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I wonder if CTI will remaster their back catalog... |
Maybe correct about Zero Tolerance, But listen to a couple of these samples when you get a chance. For some reason there are none of these on youtube. :] Pat likes experimentation! http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-sign-of-4-mw0000019962Hopefully, I will get to Mr. Cowley tomorrow. |
Ah, okay, Acman. Point taken!!! That first link is pretty far off road! Wasn't aware Pat had done anything like that. If that is something you listen to regularly - you are WAY more adventurous than I. Have read "Zero Tolerance" was one of those "contractual obligation" records created "with prejudice", if you will. While I have some interest in experimental/avant garde, that interest has its limits. No desire to follow Pat that far off road. The Ornette Coleman is a little more accessible but again not anything that will be on my top 10 (probably not even top 100) must buy list.
On the other hand, I just finished the Cuong Vu Trio Meets Pat Metheny. THAT one works for me though not sure I can fully explain why. Maybe Frogman can weigh in with some music theory based description of what they are doing. What I can say from a "subjective-only" perspective:
1) As an entertainment, it's a stretch but not completely out of reach.
2) Some discordancy but not fingernails on blackboard.
3) The right level of complexity for what I can hear/appreciate today
3) It's new and fresh, interesting and exciting.
4) Agree with you...love his trumpet tone; no ear bleed
5) Great musicianship all around.
6) Excellent sonics!
7) Might like it just because of the rhythm section
(drumming especially ;-)
I admit to being given to short-lived infatuations with new music. Will have to see if Cuong Vu pulls me back for repeat listens. Have a feeling it will. Want to explore his other albums too. Thank you very much for the recommendation.
Right now, listening to Neil Cowley Trio "Displaced". This strikes me as a little meatier than the pretty but somewhat lightweight (and short) Spacebound Apes. Looking forward to your further comments about NCT.
Ciao
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The Song X with Ornette Coleman is actually really good. The band is awesome, Just have to remember not to play it with anyone else in the house.
The recording reminds me of the early, I think, Dial recordings of Charlie Parker with a young Miles Davis trying to keep up, and you being impressed with the lesser, because they did manage to hang in there.
Both recordings really show who the Master is, at least on this day in time. |
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Acman - this Cuong Vu stuff is interesting. Makes me want to hear more by him. Only puzzler right now is, I'm almost 8 minutes into this 9 minute Acid Kiss track and I haven't heard a lick from Pat...leastways, don't think so. Well, guess I know what'll be on the box tonight. This album is on TIDAL. |
Great, Acman....glad you enjoyed that Neil Cowley. I'm still a bit up in the air about him. Just haven't listened enough. Liking what I've heard but some part of me is also thinking "he's dumbing it down". I only just started sampling his stuff, however.
Thanks for sharing the new Pat Metheny. My intro to him was As Falls Witchita Falls. I actually saw him with Lyle and the other guys at the McCarter Theatre in Princeton NJ. for a concert in support of that album. It was really magical but maybe favored Lyle's contribution as opposed to Pat's guitar work.
I'm definitely not offended about your comments re my appreciation of his more standard jazz guitar work and sound. It is what it is for me at this point. It's funny how you say, "he does go off road every now and then" because all I ever knew of Pat early on WAS off road and, not knowing any better, I thought that was his "on road". Maybe I will try to list the Pat Metheny stuff I have. You can see what my listening experience of him has been. Thanks again.
Later. Ciao. |
Ghosthouse, I also enjoyed Neil Cowley. I will have to listen to more and get back with you. This is from the new Pat Metheny recording. Since you, at this time, cannot hear the subtleties/ language of Metheny's jazz playing,{ hope that is not taken negatively}, he does go offroad every now and then. I really like the trumpet player! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVXcpmIQ6w8 |
Correction - Not Geoffrey Burgon. Make that Michael Nyman.
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Hello again Frogman. Well, good to know there's at least one adventurous soul on this jazz thread. Always pleased to find shared appreciation of music I like. Neil Cowley is new to me too. Apparently the darling of some of the critics which tends to make me suspicious - especially if you read their over the top superlatives. I try not to hold that against him! There is something really powerful and almost hypnotic about that "She Eats Flies" live performance. BTW - We have cats. All indoor. They eat flies.
Stumbled on NCT "Spacebound Apes" first via a Spotify recommendation. Like it. Wish it were longer in the sense of more elaboration of the various song ideas. Haven't given Displaced (album with Flies) a full listen yet but planning too.
Yes...I'm familiar with minimalist Classical though hardly expert on the genre. The Kuba Kapsa Ensemble's Vantdraught 10 that I posted for Inna (though he wasn't having any of it) draws heavily from that style. Rachel Grimes and Rachel's are also influenced by minimalism. Can't recall who her big influence is...maybe (Geoffrey Burgon?). Saved him but have not listened yet.
I know Adams name and connection to minimalism but have not listened to him. Terry Riley might be another I'm vaguely familiar with. Obviously, you can't avoid Phillip Glass. He does get a little repetitive (hahaha). I do like his Koyaanisqatsi however.
Good listening to you and thanks for the comments. |
Ghosthouse, I really liked the Neil Cowley clip; thanks for that. Interesting stuff and very well executed. Don’t know if you like or are familiar with "minimalist" Classical music, but this is the second time that you have posted music that shows a "minimalist" influence or vibe. Check out some of the music of John Adams if you haven’t already. Would be curious what you think. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0aj0rem0acA |
There is a lot of comfort in numbers and it is one of the toughest challenges and a great test of a horn player's mettle is to play with a rhythm section without a harmony instrument. Playing without a piano or guitar is a little like being naked. Any bs in a solo is laid bare. Not only is there less "clutter", but without the harmonic underpinnings supplied by the piano the improviser has to play in such a way that the listener can still follow the harmonic progression of a tune. The player has to have such complete command of the harmony of a tune that by playing a single note at a time the harmony is conveyed. Even many of the greats depended on being able to hear the harmonies while improvising; in a sense, it's a bit of a crutch. Few players could do this as well as Rollins. There is a reason that so many of the "greats" never rose to the challenge; and this wasn't always simple preference. Acman3, amazing! Thanks for that clip. Probably my favorite Sonny record after "The Bridge". His command of rhythm is simply amazing. This track is from the reissue of that record. It's a two record set that includes several cuts not in the original release. Elvin Jones kills on this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sBDulH-XsSM |
