I thought the Charlie Parker Played BeBop was wonderful. It was for children. Children. You do know what they are? The music was NOT played by Bird. Did you notice that? It was not meant to be serious Jazz. Only someone who takes himself a little too serious would not see this. Have you ever heard the classical pieces written for children? Demonstrates and explains the different instruments. Man, you need to lighten up. Just a tad. Listen to these. More magic actually performed by children. Please do not say the originals sound better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFIMTkNDobUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA3i0M65U-sCheers |
I think it's safe to say that, as far as I can tell, "all" means 2. Rok, kindly explain how it is that I "have lost the argument"? Not that I bother with all this to win an argument, because as you correctly point out the truth always wins and of course it has won again. Now, re the "correct critique": practice what you preach and keep your own comments to "I like", "I don't like" and we'll see. Moreover, everything I wrote about that clip is absolutely and factually correct. You are welcome to prove me wrong about any of it , including Wynton. It's time to stop beating around the bush with some of this stuff: if you can't hear what I described (which is so obvious) then I think ....actually, I think you can and are just too bent out of shape because you know deep inside that it is you who has lost the argument. Cheers.
Btw, and I know you may not understand this, but in my book this comment says it all as far as where a person might or might not find truth. There are limits to everything:
**** I thought this clown was dead. Dang!! ****
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O-10:
Well, he has fallen back to his usual position when he loses the argument. Throws out a lot of words in a critique that sounds impressive to non-musicians, but could be BS. We don't know. I think the correct critique is whether or not you like it. The rest be damned. Just school house BS.
When his answer to the history of this country and NYC, is to say that Wynton wanted to fire all the white guys at JALC!!! It's time to call it a day and head for the house.
As always, truth wins out. And we all know the truth. We all, always do know the truth..
Lets get back to the music. This ruckus has already revived one unpleasant, moronic corpse from the past.
Cheers
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O-10, sorry, but you've got this wrong also. That is NOT what Rok is saying; I believe that is what you are saying. He has already given us a list of things that were not stripped (and some he wished were). But, I don't want to comment to you about what he said; I would prefer to do it more directly. With all due respect you are simply not understanding how influence in the arts plays out over time. Also with respect, not surprising for someone who proudly proclaims that he doesn't want to learn anything about music. You may have your own notions about the sociology of it all, but while I may disagree with some of that too, I am referring to musicological issues. Frankly, I don't see how there can be any common ground about all this with someone who feels he can discuss jazz history in any capacity while holding on to the view that it started with Bird. Now, your clip. How do I like it?
First, I've been here long enough to able to smell a troll. No problem, I'll play. I hope I am mistaken re the troll part for reasons that will be explained by my comments:
I love Bird's playing; always have, poor sound quality and all. I love Dizzy the composer of the melody in your clip. I love "Night In Tunisia", the tune. I love educating children about music; the purpose of that recording. Having said all that, and since you asked, imo, it is musical bulls**t. Played and sung with a lame feel; very square and not idiomatic at all. I am sure that, if asked, you would point out that they didn't even use a real saxophone, but a sampled alto sound played on an electronic keyboard as well as other sampled horn sounds. The "alto" "solo" sounds the way a Junior HS band student would "play jazz", and the electric bass sound is awful. How do you like it?
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Frogman, Rok is saying not everything has an "African Heritage", some things came "uniquely" from people who are descendants of African slaves. They evolved from a slavery so severe that it stripped them of everything from the land which they came; therefore what was left, was not African anything, unless you can consider a light brown skin, African.
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orpheus10 posted some important but little known facts about NoLa, but the Black Creoles (and indeed all Creoles) has lost a LOT of political power to "Les Americans' by the time we see jass beginning
another important but little known issue is some cross-fertilization from Italian immigrants, mostly Sicilian -- it's reasonable to think they may have affected jazz as well as food and other aspects of culture |
Jazz is an art form that branched out like the many headed "Hydra"; acid jazz, fusion jazz, world jazz, low jazz, high jazz, slow jazz, fast jazz, smooth jazz, rough jazz; you name it jazz, and on and on; consequently, no one can make a statement about jazz, unless they specify which jazz, now we can add "congo square jazz".
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Rok, why do you dance around this issue? The worst racist is he who sees racism around every corner. Now, no one is suggesting that race doesn’t have an important role in the history of jazz. But, what is at issue here is whether and how THAT VERY RACE is reflected in the music. You are contradicting yourself and don’t seem to know it. Put aside what he said to Ken Burns for a moment. How do you explain away what he said in the clip I posted? More importantly, why can't you see anything good in (your?) African heritage? Before you jump all over this last question, go over some of what you have written.
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Shubert, is that really you? Where have you been? I'm glad what I heard isn't true.
I know you've been abroad, why don't you tell us all about it.
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My last word.
Wynton said, when interviewed for the Ken Burns 'Jazz' project:
"when you are talking about Jazz, you are talking about Race."
You will never get it, so lets move on.
Cheers
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**** Transport any or all of the players involved in these Jazz ’interviews’ to present day America, and you get an entirely different answer to all the questions. **** Wrong. What they talked about is as accepted today just as it was back then. You must have missed this; from your own Wynton: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nU82xdMjA**** What about racism and segregation in NYC? **** Huh? Oh, you must be referring to the ironies of ironies of a few years ago: Wynton was threatened with lawsuits for wanting to fire all the white players in his LC band in order to have an all black band. The issue being discussed here is not slavery or racism. IT IS THE DEVELOPENT AND EVOLUTION OF AN ART FORM. The shame is that understanding this is one of the keys to becoming better listeners. I know, I know..... oh, well. It remains as much a mystery today as it did four years ago (!) why someone can prefer to continue in a fantasy "reality" about something they purport to love so much in spite of so much opposing data and informed commentary. |
I thought this clown was dead. Dang!! |
Moronic post by a fool and seconded by another . |
Frogman, when it came to slavery, "NOLA" was different from anyplace else in the USA; some black people owned slaves, white people didn't mess with some black people, some black people were not black, it was a place where original "voodoo" that came from Africa still existed; consequently it has to be removed from any "general" discussion about slavery.
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O-10:
The perfect post at the perfect time.
Cheers |
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The Frogman:
The question was asked and answered.
If you think black folks in the entertainment business during that era had true freedom to speak their minds, you are not thinking. They were totally at the mercy of the movers and shakers. Transport any or all of the players involved in these Jazz 'interviews' to present day America, and you get an entirely different answer to all the questions.
For instance, throughout Jazz you will find comments and music attacking segregation and racism in the South. What about racism and segregation in NYC? No one ever mentioned that. At least no one that wanted a career.
Cheers
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Bird: I have that CD. One of the few with decent sound quality. I will listen for the things you point out. I have the tendency to think of Bird and Dizzy as just a torrent of notes at light speed. Not true. If this don't send you to South Sudan, nothing will. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubnidspois4Cheers |
Listen at how "Bird" bops, and at the same time plays the melody of this beautiful tune; the bop is sometime over the melody and even "bops" the melody at times; he does that all the way through this great album; bop riffing all over and under those most musical melodies. Nobody, but nobody else can do that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg |
O-10, with all due respect, your logic is flawed. First, who said we had "narrowed it down to bebop"? That’s the first flaw; one cannot discuss jazz with bebop as the "beginning". Moreover, this is not "Wynton’s" point of view; it is a universal point of view. Except, O-10’s, of course 😉 A little more for the curious: (Go to 2:40) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvaZqr6RFYhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2qteYQy_8qkhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=30LDSn5uioSo, obvious question: who should the person wanting to know about and understand a little about the history and roots of Jazz believe? Duke, Wynton, Billy Taylor and Dizzy? Or, O-10? ☺️ |
Rok,
Jerry Gonzalez & The Fort Apache Band -- OBATALA
Great group with a silly name; that sums up a lot.
If I saw this at a record store I would keep walking because of the name, but now I'm going to order something by the Fort Apache Band.
"The Music Of Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers" for sure, will be ordered. This music rates 5 stars with me.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, on your first post, there was Wynton Marsalis; he wasn't presenting things from my point of view, he was making his presentation from his point of view. At a minimum, that does have something to do with "Wynton Marsalis".
I thought we had narrowed the discussion down to "Bebop", and what evolved from that. "Jazz" is far too broad a subject to have a meaningful discussion about; as an "Aficionado", that is something I am sure of.
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O-10, how you or anyone else feels about Wynton's jazz playing has nothing to do with this. I don't understand what is so difficult about this. You may feel it doesn't apply to you, but to understand some of this from a more credible stance and not one that is simply "because I say so", is, imo, vitally important if one is to claim any credibility or authority on the general subject. I believe the last six words or so are the definition of "Aficionado".
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As Ordered: Dizzy Gillespie and Machito -- AFRO-CUBAN JAZZ MOODS I have never considered him a favorite of mind, to my ear is tone is slightly irritating, but, I like him here. I should listen to him more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBUjYwDC2oACheers |
Even Wynton's jazz is different from "My" jazz; Wynton could not "make" jazz when he left Blakey. Everybody, including me, thought he would be the best trumpet player ever; he was, except with other people's music, he could not make original jazz.
Latin music is not "African American" jazz, my jazz is the evolution of Charles "Yardbird" Parker; specifically the evolution of "Bebop". His jazz evolved from a very unique race that had been stripped of it's original characteristics, consequently developed something "new" that was it's own; "Bebop".
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The stubborn refusal to accept or even consider this information simply because it flies in the face of what one has mistakenly believed for a long time would actually be a bit humorous if it weren’t so unfortunate and ...... Don’t you ever say to yourself: "hmm, I never thought of that. That’s interesting; maybe there’s something there?"
**** How did people who couldn’t even write music know all this brilliant stuff? ****
Why is being able to write music, now, all of a sudden, an important factor for you when you have so often expressed amazement and admiration for the talent and skill of those jazz players who couldn’t write music? What we’re talking about has nothing to do with writing music, but with influence and tradition.
How is it that some Canadians speak with a French accent?
How is it that many of us speak with voices that resemble our father’s voice; or, have his mannerisms?
And, on and on....
**** I would rather put the pieces together for myself. ****
Ok, let’s hear (read). Care to share?
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How did people who couldn't even write music know all this brilliant stuff? Wynton, the go to guy for anything jazz, or "African American". While I found all of that very interesting, I would rather put the pieces together for myself.
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Yikes! X2
Re "the information": the web is an amazing thing; just simple searches required.
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Frogman, I only believe what I hear, and I don't hear anything "African" in "Birds" bebop.
I think since the music was developed primarily by "African Americans" it has to have some African quality in it, but I can't hear it in bebop.
People have the ability to connect the dots in strange ways when they want to.
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*****
the obvious fact that, probably without exception, every respected jazz historian and musicologist believes and has written about jazz’ roots in African (and others) cultures?*****
It may be a FACT that they believe and write this, it is not a FACT that it's true.
*****
Or, the fact that most jazz musicians believe this firmly? *****
Jazz musicians should stay in their lanes. They are not historians. What gives them any special insight into Africa?
*****
Aren’t you the least bit curious as to what is behind all this? Have you read anything on the subject? Just wondering.
I KNOW what's behind all this. Liberal BS. They are doing three things, (1) all their minions on the democratic/liberal plantation, just love the idea of ANYTHING positive having an African origin. Makes them and the Africans feel better about themselves.
(2) Most of the slaves on the democratic/liberal plantation just think that saying ANYTHING is from Africa, is just so freaking cool. It gives them a connection to their "old country" that does not, and never did exist. No one wants to say Jazz originated in Mississippi. It's as simple as that.
(3) they are saying to Africa-Americans that you did not create this wonderful music, you have not created anything, in fact it was created by some bush people in Africa. It's not that such a much. This slams the music and the people at the same time, while appearing to be their friend.
Two words of advise:
(1)Never believe ANYTHING written, about black folks, by white folks.
(2)Never believe ANYTHING written, about black folks, by black folks.
Follow these two words of wisdom and you can't go wrong. Everyone has an agenda, and it ain't the truth.
And last but not least:
*****
The fact that a tremendous amount of information has been provided to show the link?*****
Please, Please, enlighten us with some of this information and some of these so-called links.
Next question.
Cheers
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"Christo Redentor" is one of the most beautiful tunes I have ever heard, and I can still remember the first time I heard it. Just the other night, while searching for LP's to down-load, I discovered a new copy; was I elated.
It was so long ago that I don't remember when, but if I saw a new copy of one of my worn out collectors albums, I replaced it, and Donald Byrd's new perspective was just such an album.
I am enjoying the music.
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Glad to see the interest in this music. Honest question: I would genuinely like to know how it is that some of you process the obvious fact that, probably without exception, every respected jazz historian and musicologist believes and has written about jazz’ roots in African (and others) cultures? Or, the fact that most jazz musicians believe this firmly? The fact that a tremendous amount of information has been provided to show the link? Aren’t you the least bit curious as to what is behind all this? Have you read anything on the subject? Just wondering.
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O-10:
I will search for anything I have on Cuba.
Cheers |
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If it's agreeable to everyone, lets hang into this Cuban thing for awhile; I like it's authenticity, you can feel it.
Rok, can you give us a review of the CD you just got?
Enjoy the music.
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Now that you mention it Rok, Fusion did not survive the transition from records to being down-loaded to the computer.
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What did not survive slavery:
Language
Religion
Social Mores and customs
Music
History
Culture in General
What did survive slavery:
Bebop
Cheers
Btw, think how nice it would have been if those slaves had been playing Fusion in Africa. We could have lost that crap also.
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Frogman, since I am not a musician, you are going to speak a language that I have no comprehension of, and submit that as your proof, when it's for sure I can't refute it. I stand by what I hear and consider that as proof.
"Bebop" is a long way from Africa according to my ears.
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Everything that I am referring to is musicological and there is a tremendous amount written on the subject and it frankly always surprises me that there is so much misunderstanding about this. I understand that you feel "your kind" of jazz began with Parker, but to suggest that he "created it" (bebop) without the lineage of influence that preceded it, all the way back to Africa and other places, is simply scratching the surface of the reality of it all.
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Frogman, there is no such thing as "jazz" that one can refer to in any meaningful way; latin jazz, acid jazz, dixie land jazz, and on and on; what are you referring to?
I consider Charley Parker as "The Creator" of my kind of jazz. "Birds" racial lineage is mixed up with who knows what? Therefore you can not attribute any factor regarding "Bird" to Africa, other than the color of his skin, and when you discover there are some black people who are more Caucasian, than some white people, color of skin really gets flakey.
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Slavery hasn't ended, it's still here in the form of it's descendants; those people in the inner city whose parents were uneducated and illiterate; consequently they were born behind the 8 ball. John F. Kennedy realized there are two things every human being needs; that's a job and education in order to be more qualified for a job; his philosophy was assassinated 54 years ago. People with those items on their resume rarely wind up on the evening news. It's not about race, it's about "opportunity" and who a person's parents were; people whose parents were educated value an education, therefore they are unlikely to wind up in the crime statistics because they generally have a career. If anyone wants to understand the South, Flannery O Conner is a good place to start; Mary Flannery O'Connor was an American writer and essayist. An important voice in American literature, she wrote two novels and thirty-two short stories, as well as a number of reviews and commentaries. Born: March 25, 1925, Savannah, GA Died: August 3, 1964, Milledgeville, GA Short stories: A Good Man Is Hard to Find, Good Country People, National Book Award for Fiction She was born, lived her entire long life in the South, and died in the South; everything she wrote was related to the South. It's 100% impossible to understand the inner city without understanding the South, because that's where the inner city came from. This post is about "sociology", which is one of the subjects I studied; that science regards large numbers of people in specific groupings, as opposed to the black guy on the evening news who robbed the candy store. I would appreciate it if you ignored this post as opposed to running to the moderator and declaring it "inflamatory". Fourwinds, since this thread began we have discussed more than jazz, and probably will continue to do so in the future; however, we feel we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Since this is one of the more enlightened threads in regard to jazz, one can take the option of totally ignoring off topic posts, and simply respond to those relating to jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3jdbFOiddsSwing with it. |
