I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Now back to the Jazz! Bird's the word when we talk about Bebop, and everybody knows that, he is the undisputed King. We are not talking about just a lot of notes played at lightening speed, but music you both hear and feel.
You got it my friend, this is Bebop in between the beautiful music; nobody, but nobody else could do this.
When I first heard "Just Friends", I thought I had discovered something new, that was probably in 59 or 60; when this was done in 49. It still sounds new and fresh to me, as does the whole album "Charlie Parker with Strings".
Thank God I don't hear Africa nowhere in Bird's music.
Rather than for me to take up all the space with my favorite cuts, I prefer you bounce between the album with strings, and "Bird's Best Bop" to find your favorites.
Frogman, your objective is not to communicate an idea, but to change the subject and win the argument; that's been pointed out many times. At other times you choose to impress with your long diatribes.
Apparently you and I listen to different Bebop, because what I listen to was not influenced by anything in Africa, and even the influence you're talking about is so minor, you're the only person who can hear it, but the bottom line is the fact that it's so inconsequential.
Modern jazz ended in the 70's, serves to identify what we have been calling "classic jazz", or "jazz jazz". Aficionados can choose to identify and define things within their group that would not fit the universal definition, and that is what we have done, but since you know this, why do you claim otherwise?
The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it sounds, "Bebop influenced by Africa", you must be speaking of "Afrobop"; you win, can we go on to the next thing?
Frogman, I'm capable of communicating with people from various sociological and economic groupings, and quite often express the mood I'm in at the time. Sometime I'm in a hip mood and choose to express myself in a "jazzy" manner.
At other times I'm in a "Southern mood" and attempt to use "good old boy" dialect to communicate ideas unique to the South.
But by now I know it is foolish to communicate to you anything other than that which you wish to be communicated.
Since it's been a long time since I've been to school, please point out any grammatical errors you have found.
There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about what I have said on the subject. You disagree, fine; but, as concerns this, you are living in a reality of your own making that has no backing nor credence. That you guys can't hear the musical connections nor make the associations to the various ethnic influences in jazz that are there to be heard does not validate an alternate reality.
O-10, I am afraid your thought process at times like this is no more clear and accurate than your grammar. I would love nothing more than to not get entangled in these stupid arguments. But, in my book this topic matters. It is so basic and important to the general topic of this thread that gross misstatements and made up sh*t need to be called out. Moreover, if you can't understand why I would not want to take you up on your "offer" to lead the discussion about Cuban music after the series of taunting and provocative comments by you and your (for today) cohort, then I'm afraid you are in the dark about more than just music and its history. Go back over those posts; if you care. This will be the last thing I say on the subject (for now); perhaps some of it will sink in. Pay close attention, now:
**** you choose to point out where Bebop originated in Africa ****
That you would make such a statement points to the absence of any kind of grounding on the subject. No one has said that Bebop "originated" in Africa. The distinction between "originate" and "influence" is key. African music was one of the major influences in the creation of jazz. Bebop is jazz. Without the jazz (and blues) styles that preceded Bebop there would be no Bebop. Hence, Bebop was influenced by African music. What is so difficult to understand about this?
Btw, the suggestion that "modern jazz" ended in the 70's is equally non-sensical. So, then, are you saying that there has been no jazz created since the 70's? If you are not saying that, then what does one call jazz produced from the 70's to the present day, if not "modern"?
Frogman, I have noticed that every time you have the choice of leading a new segment of jazz, or diving into a "Bruha", you choose going back into the "Bruha" and then blaming me or Rok, for not being able to entangle yourself. No one knows more about Cuban music than you, but yet you choose to point out where "Bebop" was originated in Africa; why do you do that?
"Bebop" was called everything except a child of God and music; I don't think there were any authoritarians who even considered where "Bebop" came from.
Now if "Bird", Monk, or "Diz" told me they consulted Chief Bey, and got his final stamp of approval on "Bebop", before they could really swing with it, then I would become a believer.
*****
this notion goes completely counter to everything authoritative that has been written or said on the subject.*****
Ridiculous statement. Stop and think for a moment, of all the 'authoritative' things that have been written throughout history. Sometimes 'Authoritative' documents can land people into everything from the back of the bus to gas chambers and ovens.
So, no more about 'Authoritative' statements written by the 'authorities'.
For the record, it is not true, and a distortion of what the "debate" was about that "a majority of Aficionados concluded that African music had nothing to do with the origination of" bebop. Lets look at the facts: three regular contributors and one new commented at all on the topic. Of the regulars one said NO, one said MAYBE A LITTLE, and one said YES. The new poster suggested that the answer was YES. We don't know how the others who did comment feel about this. Why is this important? Because it is important to have clarity about what goes on here; but, most importantly, and regardless of what some may think, this notion goes completely counter to everything authoritative that has been written or said on the subject. Now, back to the regular programming of fake musicology.
THE ORIGINAL MAMBO KINGS: AN INTRODUCTION TO AFRO-CUBOP
Machito Orch with Mario Bauza, Machito Orch with Flip Phillips, Machito Orch with Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and his Orchestra and Andre's All Stars(Bebo Valdes).
Did this mesh of Cuban and Bebop work? At least as Parker and Dizzy played bebop. Does 'Cubop' still exist?
Of all the heavyweights involved I liked The Andre All Stars best.
Let me conclude our current debate before we move on. That debate concerned "modern jazz" as has been defined as jazz that originated with "bebop" and for our purposes ended in the 70's.
The debate was over whether or not African music had anything to do with the origination of this music, and the conclusion was no it didn't according to the majority of "Aficionados"
Now we are into Cuban music, "Son cubano is a genre of music and dance that originated in the highlands of eastern Cuba during the late 19th century. It is a syncretic genre that amalgamates elements of Spanish and African origin. This is the official definition, and also describes the sound of this music.
This album is an introduction to "Son Cubano"; I hope we can all stay on the same page for awhile. The last time I was able to make a considerable high quality increase in my collection was when we stayed on the same page, and investigated a single musician. I am positive that we have not been exposed to nearly enough of this music, and can make many positive discoveries if we stay into it long enough.
Acman, you seem to have ears for the best in a new genre of music; therefore, I have confidence that you will choose music which I will add to my collection.
When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA. Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.
Rok, this is what I heard as a child, nothing has changed. Most Blacks are from the South and I don't mean South Africa.
This Cuban music contains the best elements of Africa and Spain; presently, I don't like either one of them undiluted; but they came up with the right combination here. You won't find music this good in Spain or Africa.
I remember when they told me that stuff Ricky Ricardo on the Lucy show was playing was Cuban music. Why did they have to throw "Hollywood" in everybody's music?
One of my favorite old movies is "The Casbah". Katherine Dunham has the part of "Odette" in this movie, and they paid her for this dance thing, which is funny, because I've seen her dance troupe, and I know she didn't tell them to do anything like that.
What's funny Rok, is that although they paid her, they never used her choreography; in the end, they always used whatever funny steps hollywood prescribed. Back then, as long as they got paid, who cared.
Love it. Very nice post. I can hear Spain, Africa and Cuba. Spain because of the singing style. Africa because of the percussion, and Cuba because we won't hear anything like this that is native to Spain or Africa, so it's gotta be of Cuban origin.
When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA. Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.
Which reminds me of this documentary I was looking at on South Africa; they discovered some artwork, they said had to have come from another planet because native South Africans were not capable. I say the old Europeans hit up on time and space travel, and did it before the New Europeans discovered South Africa.
Rok, Frogman has the floor, and we are going to listen and learn.
Rok, if you want to stay on the good side of the Frogman, you got to get into astrology, because it changes; I don't know whether it's on phases of the moon, or when Jupiter is in the seventh house; no, that's not it, the moon in the seventh house!
What I'm trying to say, is when a guys good side keeps moving around, it ain't easy finding the good side.
Miguel Zenon is from Puerto Rico, and I like his style; yes, his heritage is part of that. Although he has played with some of my favorite musicians, I'm unfamiliar with him.
He has quite a bit of formal education in music, as many current musicians are fortunate to have on their resume. As has been implied, I do not subscribe to formal education being unnecessary, but merely point out the fact that I know musicians who did not get it. For the record, not having formal education in music is a distinct disadvantage; another to go along with all the other disadvantages some musicians in the past had.
I will look forward to acquiring and listening to "Miguel Zenon" in the future.
Very nice young player with a gentle modern tone and very interesting composition style. Swinging player with a style informed by his island heritage. Really like this guy.
O-10 - I left the Circus and live in a small city in SE France near Spain. No TV or Internet save when I am back in Twin Cities for funeral etc or Socialist Medicine at VA Hospital. FYI, Red Lobster sucks because the oceans are fished out .
There is no such thing as too much of a good thing.
Jon Hendricks and Friends -- FREDDIE FREELOADER The 'friends' include: Benson, McFerrin, Basie Orchestra, Wynton, Turrentine, Flanagan, Al Grey and The Manhattan Transfer
Speaking of dress, sometime ago when I took the family to "Red Lobster", I dressed in business fashion, sport coat and tie; which was the way everyone else was dressed.
When I wasn't looking, someone changed the dress code, and all these sloppy looking people started coming in; that's when the food no longer tasted as good, (probably the same identical food), but I quit "Red Lobster".
Well now Frogman, we have never had so many posters at one time, and although an "off topic" subject has been discussed, a lot of good music has been posted also.
We even got Schubert out of hibernation; who should know by now that people who live in glass houses don't throw rocks, especially in this direction.
I think this proves we can chew gum and walk at the same time, but I'm not rejecting your thing about staying on topic; however, what was discussed very much related to the topic.
Frogman...just dropped by. Haven’t read any of the preceding but did listen to the first couple tracks of that Wes Montgomery "Twisted Blues" clip you linked. Very nice. Might have to look for that as a recording. THANKS
BTW (for Rok’s sartorial edification) as far as I’m concerned, Wes’ fashion look (white tab collar dress shirt with skinny black tie) NEVER went out of style. 50 years later, he is still a sharp-dressed man.
Acman3, thanks for that Averhoff clip; had not heard that before. Carlos Averhoff was the tenor player in Irakere and if you listened to the clips of that band that Rok posted he is the person announcing the band and musicians (he was the only English speaking member of the band). Smoking performance. Gonzalo Rubalcaba sounds amazing. What I particularly like about that clip is that, while it sounds similar to some of Irakere's stuff, it has the intensity but not as much nervous energy as a lot of Irakere. I found a little info about this recording and it appears this was Rubalcaba's rhythm section and Irakere's (post Paquito and Sandoval) horn section. Would love to hear more from this album which appears to be Averhoff's project. Great stuff, thanks.
Frogman, this music is akin to resonant frequencies; the music is broadcast on a specific frequency, while the receiver is tuned to the same frequency. If you are not properly tuned, you can not properly hear the music. Staying on the same wavelength as this music, is my life's pleasure.
O-10, I understand how deeply you feel about and from this music; very admirable and kudos to you. I will say this again, as before, in the hope that this might spark some curiosity in you to dig a little deeper about all this. You are simply mistaken with some of these assertions and I would strongly encourage you to read more on the subject and develop a more sound basis for so much confidence on these topics. My motivation in pointing these things out is simply the belief, based on a lot of experience on the subject and the corroboration of many, that this will heighten your appreciation of the music. Perhaps the comfort of believing that you know all there is to know is the most important thing for you; I would hope not.
Rok, you really should quit while you're only this far behind 🙁. You're just grabbing at straws now and using the usual convoluted logic. Please stop digging your hole deeper. What is the point of comparing a performance by children with all the charm of such with a lame performance by adults FOR children? That the music is written for children does not preclude artistic excellence; nor should it. Have you heard Britten's "The Young Person's Guide The Orchestra"? There are many works along those lines and recordings by the greatest orchestras on the planet as well as smaller projects. I have been involved in more Children's Concerts than I can remember and regardless of the simplicity of the music the most effective and educational (for the children) are those performed with artistic integrity; this, as demostrated by the kids' reactions and follow up. Re your tasteless comment:
Your explanation might have been believable (somewhat) had you not followed it up with:
**** This ruckus has already revived one unpleasant, moronic corpse from the past. ****
Everything has to have a name, and it got the name "bebop" whether Dizzy approved or not, but this was a distinctly unique form of jazz that could not be imitated or duplicated, nor did it have any connection to Africa what so ever in regard to that origination, not even if you produce an edict from the Pope, and that's the last word on that.
I have a closer connection to this music than some notes written on a piece of paper; I have had a very close connection to a musician who could not read music, but he could produce some of the most incredible "hard bop". The fact that he couldn't read music wasn't as much of a hindrance as you might think. He couldn't read music, but graduates of Juilliard School of Music couldn't produce "Hard Bop". It would have done him no good if he could read music, but couldn't produce "hard bop".
I am certain that the ability to produce this music is beyond comprehension, and there in lies the crux of "Bird's" great music. I like "brevity" that's why I use Bird as a kind of shorthand for the originators, instead of including the other "originators".
The biggest problem with this music was the fact that the "aristocracy" had nothing to do with it's creation. At first they belittled the music, and only begrudgingly gave it legitimacy. After the public accepted this music, they had no other alternative. When they found no way to easily create it, that's when they began to attribute the music to other co-originators, which I assume is what you are trying to do now.
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