Jazz for aficionados

acman3 ,
Never heard of the young lady but she sure has a lot to say!Thanks .

In the 80's "The American Dream" was alive and well; I know, because I sold The American Dream; 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage, a playroom, in addition to the living room of course; all in a nice subdivision where the kids could play and ride their bikes in safety.

Keegiam, your point is very well stated; the Republican Party played Southerners like a banjo, all they had to do was throw something into a bill about Black people and they got the poor Southerners vote, even when it was against their own interest.

Their racist stupidity affected all working class people adversely; the Democratic Party even shifted to the right in order to get their vote, plus the unions were weakened. Strong unions and a strong Democratic Party would have fought tooth and nail before allowing all those manufacturing jobs to leave this country. Those jobs meant people without a college education could earn a decent living.




I missed the bus that the VA provided to get from JB (VA facility in deep south county where rich people live) to the VA in the city. This meant I had to catch public transportation back to North County where I live, that’s a long way with many bus transfers to get home, did not have a clue how to do this.

After walking and finally reaching a bus stop, and catching a bus, I sat next to a young white gentleman and told him my dilemma. He was very helpful and told me that he would guide me as far as he was going. We had a long ride, and a long pleasant conversation. The reason I mention race, is because his story was the same as any young working class Black man who couldn’t afford to go to college.

In deep South County, they can’t get anybody to work fast food places because no rich parent would allow his kid to work at one even if the kid wanted to. This young man told how much travel time it took to get from where he lived in the city, to his job, and that at times he felt like all he did was ride the bus and work, but that he lived in a nice apartment (which took most of his check, no money to party) and he felt that it was worth it.

He also gave me detailed instructions on how to transfer to various buses that would get me home. His informative conversation in regard to the life of a young working class person made the long ride to my next transfer stop quite pleasant; but deep down, I felt pain because I knew a young intelligent man like him should have been in college, not working in a fast food joint on a nowhere job.

are you American?

Cheers

@rok2id

Your guess is wrong; that's not my thinking.  My point was well stated - no need to ask what it was or try to distort it by re-stating things your way.

You're clearly part of the problem, and you'll never see it.

@keegiam,

I hope you don't think all that is 'breaking news'.

What's your point?   I guess you are another one that thinks black people have a 'right' to be criminals.

Cheers

@orpheus10 

It’s a relief to run into Americans who “get it.”  You too Schubert – thanks. Too few do, as denial of the history and lasting impact of American Apartheid runs very, very deep. It’s there for those who want to research it, but most don’t.

Re: your accurate description of how the South turned Republican on a dime in the 60’s, I assembled this analysis of the Congressional voting on the 1965 Civil Rights Acts awhile back:

Combined House & Senate vote count on final version:

• Southern Democrats: 9–103
• Southern Republicans: 0–12
• Northern Democrats: 190–9
• Northern Republicans: 164–29

     Summary:

          Southern votes = 9 for, 115 against.

          Northern votes = 353 for, 38 against.

It’s an American illness, and there’s no cure in sight.

In a way Hank Jones reminds me of Mozart . Perfect Balance in what ever he does .
https://youtu.be/oUYQqQ7bFZ8?t=4

I knew guys that cracked at Ft Bragg, NC, during basic training.

Don’t go Hollywood with this stuff. We had a guy from Chester, PA, that went nuts at Redstone Arsenal, AL, while attending Missile school. They were all taken away never to be seen again.

Of course some of it was just a way not to go to Nam. Same in every war.

Sort of like the B17 crews that landed in Switzerland while on bombing missions over Germany. Due to engine trouble of course. Side benefit was they were interned and sat out the war in safety.

Got to be embarrassing to 8th Air Force after a while.

Cheers

pjwJust  saw your post about your father's wartime experience and aftermath it was quite moving. They say" war is hell", I believe only those who have been there know the full meaning of that phrase. I was glad to hear that he made a recovery although I'm sure it was not easy. Thankfully he steered you away from any military endeavors. I do not always agree with the wars we get involved in but I always respect and honor those who serve.

0-10 most likely the guy had what is called the 1, 000 yard stare . Comes from seeing mucho death .
If he was in the central highlands the drug available was hash which gives a
horrible zombified look . These guys  were far more dangerous to Platoon Leaders and Sgts . than the enemy and there were a lot of them .As usual , chain of command did nothing .

Anyone watching the Ken Burns program on Country Music?

Got me to thinking about Buddy Rich.   He trashed an entire genre of music, and more than once.   I recalled this from the Brecker posts.

*****Radical humility I believe is something all the greats share, whatever field of endeavour.*****

Cheers

Btw, he, Burns, did not forget Ray Charles.  He can not be given too much credit for his contribution to country music.

Cheers

A strange and mystifying experience; I was at a New Years Eve party, and the fellow sitting across from me began a conversation. It was the kind of nothing conversation one would strike up with a stranger. I responded appropriately to whatever he was talking about, but I looked into his eyes and became frightened. I looked away and began a thought conversation with myself.

The party hasn't really started, I haven't been drinking, this guy is well dressed, he's about 25, I'm not gay, but I would say the guy was even good looking. Why do I get frightened every time I look into his eyes?

He had a soft smile that never changed, he was soft spoken, but he seemed to be somewhere else when he talked. Meanwhile I'm trying to deal with something that I had never experienced before; fear, every time I looked into a persons eyes. The party was just beginning and he didn't know anyone, while I knew everyone, so I made him acquainted with some of the other guests, and avoided looking into his eyes.

The only thing I discovered about that young man was the fact that he had just got back from Vietnam. We were bringing in the year 69.

Schubert, that Byrd trumpet sounded heavenly, so did Frank Foster's tenor sax; that's the best version of that song I've heard.

The Song of Delilah;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkFSM9Frx3w


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6JghaB-4-M


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIotBiSa1DE


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc

Gorgeous! Hadn’t heard that.  The great George Gershwin.  Thanks!

Very glad you liked the “I Remember Clifford” clip, O-10.

My favorite by Don Byrd and company .

Not that I know much about bop ballads, but best I’ve heard .


https://youtu.be/e-JFIrsd1b4

Frogman, I found your post very uplifting; it does my heart a world of good to hear that one of my favorite jazz musicians is doing well.

Yes, I'm very aware of what a great composer he is. I remember that LP very well; don't have it presently, but I remember it.

I hope I have your favorite vocal version of "I Remember Clifford"; she's beautiful, I can't think of a better version.

It would be very difficult , perhaps impossible , to write a better elegy or to play same in a more eloquent and dignified manner than Byrd and Gryce .

Hah! Interesting that you should post Benny Golson, O-10. I met him just five days ago. He lives in my friend and colleague’s (also a saxophone player) beautiful co-op apartment building in Harlem. What a nice man, speaking of nice individuals in Jazz. And what a great composer. Wrote so many great Jazz standards; and all with a certain elegance and personal stamp. Thanks for that.

As an interesting aside, the Wes Montgomery tune you posted was orchestrated by the recently discussed Claus Ogerman.

Probably my favorite Golson tune. The original (first) recording:

https://youtu.be/o_XDEStRF88

A favorite vocal version:

https://youtu.be/Wy5R3vouP3M

As someone else here often concludes:

”Your honor, the people rest”

Frogman due to your unconcern for the problems that plague the lower middle class especially, which numbers in the many millions of people, I'm inclined to believe you live in what is equivalent to "The Gold Coast" in Chicago. Apparently there are many here on the "Gon" that qualify for the "Gold Coast", that's good, but if rich people like JFK didn't care for those who are less fortunate, this country would be in much worse shape than it is.

It's possible that living in such an environment blinds one to the horrors of poverty. Poverty is incredibly more distressing than it was when I was young. It meant living in a crappy house and not having the best clothes, it didn't mean you or your kid accidentally getting shot when you walked out your front door. The saddest part about this is the fact, I don't see any way out of such a neighborhood.

We always have a trillion dollars for war, but nothing for the poor. As everyone knows, I have cancer, which meant surgery, chemotherapy plus more doctors and exams than I can count. All of that means sky high medical bills, more than I can possibly pay. Please, I'm not asking for sympathy, or financial help, I just want you to know what happens when a person gets a catastrophic illness. Even if a middle class person had money in the bank, it all just flew out the medical window. It shouldn't be like this.



No, I haven't forgotten the original intent of the thread;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23Etcb-L9M


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqn3PF_DcSg

 

The reasons that I have expressed reticence about veering away from THE STATED SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD and into some of these very complicated topics is the obvious, but mostly because many times doing so has turned ugly and I know for a fact that some of these contentious exchanges have driven some contributors off the thread. Importantly, in some cases they have needlessly colored the attitudes toward each other of some of those who have remained as demonstrated by the downright hostile comments that have been directed at each other. However, this is just one man’s feeling on the matter and everyone is obviously free to do as they see fit.

My hope is always that the many parallels between the feelings and opinions held about some of these contentious topics AND the feelings and opinions held about the stated topic of this thread (music) do not go unnoticed. Unfortunately, based on what I observe they usually seem to be. In both cases there is often a tendency to be absolutist and to make proclamations about one side of the equation or the other with a kind of arrogance that is frankly stunning. Staunch generalizations and broad statements are made, whether they be about one type of Jazz vs another or one political ideology vs another that are, first and foremost, nothing more than self serving attempts at claiming either superior insight or sensitivity to musical “soul” or, as in the case of politics and social issues, exclusive access to some sort of moral high ground. This is done while ignoring and not factoring in the obvious: that our own personal life experiences deeply color our feelings and reactions to it all. Personal experience may be a personal truth, but not truth for everyone else; and, it certainly is not anyone’s “responsibility” to make this personal truth anyone else’s. I don’t think any one of us is wise enough to try and make that be the case.

The main and most important parallel is also the silver lining in all this; and is the only real TRUTH as I see it. Just as the great art form that we discuss here continues to evolve as it always has, so has and does humanity. Some of us, because of those personal life experiences, will see and feel only the negative side and negative aspects of the evolution. We are blinded to all the real progress and positive movement that has occurred....in both cases. Personally, I think this is a shame.

Regards to all.

O-10, can’t place my opinion there, do not know how the situation is at USA, can guess though but true insight is out of my reach. Here in Croatia things has been quite different till while ago. Free health care for all, free education, lot’s of possibilities to work, etc. In some way that has changed lately plus possibilities for work got limited. Many young people are moving out of country in order to get a better paid job. I can consider myself lucky since my on-line work spreads from tourism till web development, videography, etc, etc...When you do things on-line, you are less dependent on the place of work.

"Sorry about your dilemma Mary-Jo; if I were physically and financially able, I would come and join you."
I appreciate it, but my intention was to sound ironic, you know, when people come to Vegas, they are full of expectations and dreams. Eventually many of them end up Moanin’...

"From the very beginning, conversation on this thread has varied and I have no objection to that, but I know Frogman has wanted to limit the discussion to music."

Imho, prefer mix, little bit of that, litle bit of that. This reminds me that I have to check on Michael Brecker what fro suggested and get back to work. ;--)

Wish you nice day 0-10!

From the very beginning, conversation on this thread has varied and I have no objection to that, but I know Frogman has wanted to limit the discussion to music.

In these times with so many bad things going on that affect young people in this country so adversely, I think we would be remiss in our responsibility to them, not to vary the topic occasionally. Maybe go down more than one track at the same time.



The only point I wanted to make in regard to JFK is the correlation between crime and unemployment. There are a multitude of problems linked to unemployment, any intelligent person can understand that.



Camden NJ The poorest city?
Camden, N.J., is the poorest city in the nation. According to figures from the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 32,000 Camden residents live below the poverty line. For a family of four, the poverty line is an annual household income of about $22,000.Sep 21, 2012


All anyone has to do is follow the list of problems that exist in that city and they can plainly see the correlation between poverty and a multitude of problems.

When we have so many Camden New Jersey's in this country, the citizens of this country should be concerned.


I understand anyone's objection to varying the topic like this, so feel free to voice your opinion.

Sorry about your dilemma Mary-Jo; if I were physically and financially able, I would come and join you.

O-10 would say now: Well, all you can do now is: ’Moan’

By the way, I am still in Vegas. Naturally, I spent all my money. Will work for food.

"Btw, Kennedy is the biggest myth in the world...."

"What did he do for black people, Nothing. He just acted like he liked them. That’s all it took. So easy."

True. I see it that way too. Marketing.

Movie The Butler.
Although it does not end in a way how I would picture it. BO being unknown and just elected as the president (the colour of his skin does not make him instantly good) and main character being able to walk in the WH building through the main gate for the first time is just not enough to deliver the message - ok, all is well and achieved now. Clumsy closure or shall I say, little bit of marketing/politics again.

"Lyndon Baines Johnson, LBJ, did more for black people than any president since Lincoln."

You are not talking about the one that escalated the war in Vietnam, are you?

"MOX NIX",

and with that, I return this thread to it's original purpose.


"The Jazztet" was one tight nit group; Curtis Fuller - trombone, Benny Golson - tenor saxophone, Lee Morgan - trumpet, Wynton Kelly - piano, Paul Chambers - bass.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7URoogRj0

great political movie on TCM   now.

Cheers

WOW!!!! You should be writing for the National Enquirer.

Btw, Kennedy is the biggest myth in the world. He is only mentioned when talking to black people. I remember when everyone I in the South had pictures of King, Christ and Kennedy on the walls. What a joke. My family being the exception. :)

What did he do for black people, Nothing. He just acted like he liked them. That’s all it took. So easy.

Lyndon Baines Johnson, LBJ, did more for black people than any president since Lincoln. His problem was, he was a southern white man, so he couldn’t be the hero. So the credit went to Kennedy.

Clinton, another southern white man helped black people by cutting ’welfare’. He didn’t go far enough. Should have ended it all. The exceptions, being Blind, Cripple or crazy.

Based on what you said, we can conclude that during the heyday of auto jobs in Detroit, there were no drug dealers or thugs in Detroit. You did say they would all rather work.

Cheers

Schubert although I don't have a degree in sociology, I began educating myself during Kennedy's term in office; he was solving these problems, not by giving disadvantaged people money, but by making sure they had access to jobs, and even on welfare he made young ladies go to school in order that they might become employed.

Since I was the same age as those ladies, I talked to them, and they went to real classes in preparation for secretarial work.

Here in St. Louis, beginning pimps, hustlers, and other criminals traded those corners in for Blue McDonnel Aircraft badges. Besides going to jail, crime is risky business in many other ways. There is nothing like having a decent job, getting a paycheck every Friday and not having to look over your shoulder.

Since this countries founding African Americans were discriminated against; Kennedy told defense contractors, I want 10% Black employment, or no contract; think about what that did to unemployment, as well as preventing new criminals.

That was way too much progress for the South, that's why he was assassinated. Since that time divide and conquer has been the rule of politicians. Southerners who should have been voting for working people, voted for rich people until we are where we are, and there is nothing anyone can do about, all the good paying jobs are elsewhere.

Clowns to the Left of me
Jokers to the Right
here I am
stuck in the middle with the truth

Cheers

It's lonely in the middle

0-10 , I know what you mean about "conservatives " and well off blacks .A good black friend of mine who was is a dentist caught hell in a bottle
in a Milwaukee suburb few years ago . Had done 10 years in Navy , 6 years on carriers !

But from what I have seen most neo-conservatives have two other things they hate much worse , reality and the truth ..

The Blues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSfqNEvykv0

Another Great one from Mississippi, maybe the Greatest.  Although I, like Howlin' Wolf the best.

Cheers

The Blues:

Some folks were imprinted with that sound before they could say the word music.   It never goes away.

Cheers

Albert King:

He is what was known as a Blues-man.   He just didn't play it, he lived it.   Like all the real ones, he had that authentic sound.

Not many, if any, left.    Another Great one from Mississippi.

Nice Clips

Cheers

Michael Brecker:

Brilliant Saxophonist. Seems to be a throughly nice guy. I don’t have anything by him as leader. He is on several as part of group.
One of my favorites is him with German Radio Band and Purdie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSqHZy3JbH4

*****Radical humility I believe is something all the greats share, whatever field of endeavour.*****

I tend to agree with this, however being of great humility in and of itself does imply greatness. Some folks are just so good they can be complete a’holes. They are untouchable and need no one. And some folks have a lot to be humble about.

Enough about nice guys, who were the real a’holes of Jazz?  And great.

Cheers

Rok, here we have a new jazz musician that I know hardly anything about, but I'll bet big money that he's going to be successful;


      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/21/fashion/weddings/a-good-combo-for-this-jazz-musician.html



Here we have a blues musician that I know a lot about; I used to see him every weekend at a club in St Louis.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkzuJzZDFXs&list=PL-aVCoKV6XpXPP26nzUvd4RqO6qBvG5kB


I wonder what Albert would have done if he couldn't play that guitar?

Two of the very greatest without a doubt.

Speaking of “getting along”, “nice men” and mary_jo’s “manners”.  One of the most humble, kindest and well mannered individuals to ever grace this music:

https://youtu.be/bYcFb14O32k

https://youtu.be/V2-Jl2W9XsU

Hank Jones:

Another great one from Mississippi.   Nice music, nice man.

Cheers