Jazz for aficionados
pjw After listening to all 3 G Baker cuts I think he meshes well with Frisell and Haden. But he still sounds to me more like a rock drummer than a jazz drummer. But it fits because Frisell is not a strict jazz guitarist and has a lot of rock sensibility in his playing.Baker really is very talented but leans too much towards rock style for me. BTW- did you know Baker was a long time heroin addict. Don't know if he's clean now. frogman mentioned Charlie Watts -another rock drummer who made some jazz cds . I bought several (still own one) but was disappointed. I love Watts as the drummer for the Rolling Stones but jazz chops he is lacking. As frogman said he was saved by his sidemen. BTW- I bought the Stan Getz bio you recommended . It's great and gives an excelllent portrait of the "swing" era which he was involved in. I did not know how popular he was back in the late 40's early 50's. . And sadly an alcoholic and drug addict before he turned 20. |
nsp, as mentioned I'm not a huge big band fan, but maybe I can offer a few samples outside the more popular/obvious choices - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2nbtYg8YGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXJ5Qnzep9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M2ADUgffFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF-pVkRYij4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXijK-JlULg Guess I favored moving into some bone work toward the end. ;^) |
nsp, "But he still sounds to me more like a rock drummer than a jazz drummer." I agree. However his 3 biggest influences and idols were Art Blakey, Max Roach, and Elvin Jones.On the duet he does with Blakey his expression says it all. It was like a dream come true for him. Of the 3 influences he does sound more like Blakey then Jones or Roach. Blakey has a tendency to "pound aggressively" on the skins as does Baker but Baker tries to "break the skins" on almost every session whereas Blakey occasionally sounds this way and has a softer touch and feel which meshes better in the jazz genre. |
pryso, I liked the Monk piece a lot. I own a lot of Monk recordings but not that one. One of the commenters below the video is a musician and gave a link to a piece he wrote. I think its really a nice piece of work. Here is the comment and link: The man who arranged these marvelous arrangements is Hall Overton who was also my teacher at the Juilliard School which of course I am highly grateful for. I however had to study Bartok and Stravinsky and not Monk. He instead inspired me to write this piece. click on link then click "go to site" https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amrod.de%2Fmp3%2Fhomage-to-monk.mp3&redir_to... |
pjw, more Monk arranged by Overton? Hope you have this one then - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxfJZ7RhTo&list=PLp1OjP0tJn_GkWoUjFr2PGqZhKqd5s_1p |
frogman, "enjoyed the story re Lou Donalson. And like his playing a lot. Nice clip with the little talked about Tommy Turrentine, brother of Stanley. I like the other alto player you met that night also" Thanks, unfortunately I think Lou’s age finally caught up with him. I’ve not seen him live since 2015. Gary Bartz plays very well. I recently purchased this disc which is 2 recording sessions on one disc for a great price: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000DFI5/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 orpheus10, "pjw, I liked your story about Lou Donaldson, he was my first favorite jazz artist, and I have been following him every since; he also likes to play with some of my other favorite artists; like Baby Face Willette and Grant Green." Thanks Orpheus. Lou’s getting old as I mentioned above as I think he hit the 90 mark in age and has not been playing live in recent years. He loves to be a comedian in between songs and I always enjoyed seeing him perform. I pray his health is ok as I pray for you as well. |
I have very little big band, the closest I have is Gerry Mulligan; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xx-uPsivDM |
rok, I expect that meant Juilliard students are expected to study classical composers, not Monk. ;^) acman, thanks for the additions. I almost included something from Ellis but decided I’d offered enough. But also to paraphrase that Mexican beer (cerveza) commercial, I don’t always enjoy big band, but when I do I listen to Basie! pjw, on another audio site I have a different moniker -- M3 lover. I receive occasional questions about that, assuming it relates to a performance automobile or German camera. But that is an audio site so I chose a musical reference -- three of my favorite jazz artists: Miles, Monk, and Mingus. I later considered I should have used M4 so I could have included Mulligan, but it was too late. So o10, you know why I linked the same Mulligan album. Anyway, I likely have 25-30 Monk albums, mostly on vinyl. I even have an original poster from a Monk concert I attended in Honolulu in 1965. Yes, I’m a fan boy! |
pjw Enjoyed your Lou Donaldson story. I have spoken to band members between sets on occasion but only in the audience, not backstage. Nice to hear how friendly Lou was to you. I would have loved to have sat and talked boxing with him , I'm a big fan. The credit on that Basie cut goes to acman3 , not me. |
nsp, Thanks for correcting that. Lou was great to see live. As you know he was at first a big disciple of Charlie Parker as were a lot of sax players. In the 60’s Lou started to get into a blues- soul/gospel funky type jazz and his stuck with that since. Every time I saw him live he played a tune called "Whiskey Drinking Woman". He would joke around with the audience before, during, and after that song. Mike Francesa, the sports talk jockey on NBC NY used to answer calls from Lou all the time concerning sports. Whiskey Drinking Woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsZ0beofEU Check out Dr. Lonnie Smith at 5 minutes in!..Lou's vocals are very good for the blues |
pryso Thanks for the BB clips. I have the Monk at Town Hall on vinyl but not the other and will purchase a copy. Actually I will check my inventory first I may have that Monk title on cd. I had a G Mulligan Concert Band lp and stupidly sold it. I hope his BB stuff is still available. Ihave that G Evans and "Into The Hot" another excellent Evans lp form that period. Here are 2 I don't have and should: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TazGJWKNnow http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoFjl_8Pbw |
frogman Thanks your explanation on Pepper makes sense. The guy was there and observed him . Musicians who play together know the strong points and weakness of others around them. i wanted to weigh in on the 2 cuts of "Everthing Happens To Me" East Coast /West Coast. I would also like your input. The obvious main difference is the tone of Desmond vs. Woods. Desmond has a much lighter tone giving a lighter texture to the music. Also the Desmond cut is spare in instrumentation with no piano and no comping accompaning the soloist. This leaves the sound quieter. The arrangement of the head intro is different.Desmond takes the first a section ,then is backed by Elliot in the second A section. Then Elliiot takes the B section and the closing A section alone . Woods make an opening statement before stating the theme alone . Another difference I perceived was Desmond playing seems to stick to no more than eighth notes which gives his solo a different feel than Woods who I think at certain times uses sixteenth notes? This gives Desmonds solo a more relaxed feel I think. Just wondering what you thought of my impressions. |
nsp, your observations about the two versions of “Everything Happens To Me” are very good. As concerns the arrangements, instrumentation, form and general feel they are very accurate and I agree. My one correction would be that it is actually sixteenth (not eighth) notes that Desmond uses almost exclusively, while Woods also plays lines of thirtysecond notes like he does at 3:22-3:28 which gives his playing a generally more aggressive and busier feeling eventhough the tempo of his version is actually slower than Desmond’s. |
o10, "we have so many gems in our collections that we forget to play some of them until reminded". I agree. And that is a reason I'm beginning to cull my entire music collection. But for me that exercise relates to my age. I really can't imagine listening to everything I own at this point in my life, particularly when the favorites continue to get multiple plays. That's not a complaint. I'm grateful to own so many discs I enjoy. But a downside to this site for me is hearing so many other wonderful examples I'd enjoy too if I had them. But if I'm really going to reduce the collection then I must remain disciplined. All you younger folks be thankful you (likely) have more time to enjoy new finds. |
Pryso, I'm in precisely the same boat, but I enjoy and appreciate the sidemen on my favorite discs so much more; for example on "Somethin Else", by Cannonball, I hear Hank Jones on piano more, of course you can't miss Miles and Cannonball. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kag0vqS8CU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tSYXpq2kW0 While "Kind of Blue" is considered to be the top album by most, this is my pick. |
Pryso, when you have old albums like this, there's not a lot of time for new stuff; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBw-w_jql4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4pevIiq9As |
o10, your sidemen comment is spot on. That is one of the reasons I enjoy many of my older favorite LPs again and again, I continue finding nuances not noticed in an initial playing. Also, while I greatly enjoy "Somethin' Else", I'm sure there was more to the story of how Cannonball was credited as the leader. Some contract arrangement with Blue Note? Consider this comment from Wiki, "The album was recorded during Adderley's membership in the Miles Davis Sextet of 1958, and is one of the few post-1955 appearances of Miles Davis as a sideman. Indeed, Davis plays several of the first solos, composed the bluesy title track and, according to the liner notes, chose most of the material." That doesn't sound like Miles was a sideman to me. ;^) Still, that should be on most everyone's top jazz albums list. Also, Dakota's "Cry Me A River" sounds like it came from a Bond soundtrack, not that's theres anything wrong with that. |
pryso, you’re exactly right re “Somethin’ Else”. That record has long been considered by some to really be a Miles session. There was a debate here a while back about the relative merits of it vs KOB. SE is a great record with a lot of fantastic playing. I can definitely understand why someone might prefer it’s overall fairly conservative style, but it wasn’t the game changer that KOB was. As concerns their relative importance in the history of jazz KOB wins hand down. Still, it is interesting to me that Cannonball’s very upbeat playing feels even more at home on SE than on KOB’s modal tunes with their more introspective vibe and the company of Coltrane’s more modern and “edgier” harmonic language. On KOB, as great as he sounds, Cannonball sometimes sounds to me a little bit like the odd man out. |
Pryso, interesting you should fault "Cry Me A River"; I got distracted and this is what I was intending to post; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1INhj10CiCE |
O-10, this is a little like the “what is West Coast Jazz and what is East Coast Jazz” issue in that there is a lot more nuance to the situation than is taken into account when discussing it. Miles was already someone of tremendous stature (and tremendous ego). Already twenty four records as leader. Cannonball was a newcomer and SIDEMAN in MILES’ band. Then there are the facts presented by pryso re the particulars of the material. Add to all this the fact that the producer has a tremendous influence in how it all goes down and it is easy to see that, at most, it was a collaboration. I would bet anything (and many others agree) that this power dynamic (which exists in all projects like this one) was much more slanted toward Miles than anyone else. “Leader”, “boss”, “sideman”, whatever; Miles had much more than the typical sideman influence on that record. And much of the feeling of the music reflects this. As far as the merits of SE vs KOB goes, I won’t get into a debate about that again. There is so much written about the importance of KOB in the history and evolution of jazz that it seems silly to debate it. SE was a great record. KOB was a game changer. I am not surprised that in some “circles KOB was barely considered an also ran”; time stands still for some listeners. |
Want to share a few albums that I have been enjoying lately. Idrees Suleiman, John Coltrane,.. : Interplay (MQA recording) Ornette Coleman: The Atlantic Years (recent MQA release) Anna Maria Jopek: Minione (collaboration with Rubalcaba), Haiku The Suleiman and Coleman MQA recordings are incredible: the texture of the different instruments and really each note is audible. The playing is vivid and creative. Lonely Woman, the well known first track on the Coleman compilation, is evocative and moving. Anna Maria Jopek is a contemporary Polish singer who has a beautiful and intimate voice and makes interesting, creative, and downright sexy music. Cheers, G |
Fitting for pjw’s post. Awkward to post this for reasons that should be obvious, but still one of the funniest bits: https://youtu.be/1Zn-P0ZH3_M |
