Jazz for aficionados

rok2id your right "never" was the wrong word. I should have written "the majority"

**********Roy Eldridge makes the claim that he can tell the difference between a black player and a white player merely by listening. Leonard Feather gives Roy a blindfold test. Roy fails.******* 


Thanks acman3 for that tidbit. All in all it would seem 1951 was a great year for jazz!

Man, my printer has run out of paper...

I dreamed of black eyes last night...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnoCI2N9nWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG3z_zpFESc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-MWLJvGvM

"Dark Eyes" (Russian song Очи чёрные)

Lyrics:
written by Ukrainian poet Yevhen Hrebinka

(translation by Peter Farnbank)

"Oh, these gorgeous eyes, dark and glorious eyes,
Burn-with-passion eyes, how you hypnotise!
How I adore you so, how I fear you though,
Since I saw you glow! Now my spirit’s low!

Darkness yours conceal mighty fires real;
They my fate will seal: burn my soul with zeal!
But my love for you, when the time is due,
Will refresh anew like the morning dew!

No, not sad am I, nor so mad am I;
All my comforts lie in my destiny.
Just to realise my life’s worthiest prize
Did I sacrifice for those ardent eyes!"

O-10, you argue against a point that I never made. I clearly said that there are important differences between East Coast jazz and classic West Coast jazz. As with all music the two different styles reflect their “birthplace” in many ways. My disagreement is with your suggestion that West Coast jazz is “less real” and “less emotional”. I don’t agree with that characterization. The style of playing is different and it resonates more with some listeners than with others for the reasons that I tried to explain. Moreover, not all jazz played on the West Coast falls into the stereotypical West Coast “cool” style; especially currently today. LA has and has always had a bebop scene, a swing (traditional) scene, as well as a “cool” scene.

I’m also surprised that you don’t think that players influence other players; especially when they work together. Much has been discussed here on the topic of players’ influence on other players and the idea of evolution in jazz. There is much in print or video interviews in which players who have played with Miles speak about how much they learned from Miles and how much Miles influenced their playing. Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers were referred to by some as “The Hard Bop Academy”.

Rok, seems to me it is not I making the straw man arguments re the Nica’s Dream comparison. I never said that tempo was the “ONLY” difference. Please reread what I wrote. I clearly wrote “main difference” or that there was “little difference” between the two.... especially as concerns a West/East comparison. Remember we are talking about differences in the general style of playing on the two versions since we were talking about East/West. Obviously, since there are different players involved the playing will be different and one could argue that any one player’s playing is better than on the other version; but that is not what’s being discussed, the style is. The general style of playing is very similar on both. They even play the same arrangement of the tune and even have the same order of solos. You yourself said that you would not be able to tell that one was West and the other East. THAT’S THE POINT! That’s why that particular comparison is not a good one. You wanted to know about the “nuts and bolts” differences . In this example, aside from the faster tempo, there is very little. (Personally and subjectively, I like Blue Mitchell’s solo better, but much prefer Harold Land’s to Junior Cook’s). Don’t underestimate the impact that simply the difference in tempo can have on the emotional impact of music; it is huge.

Avid audiophile that I know you are (not! 😊) you’ll appreciate the fact that many feel that the reason that the well known Rega 3 turntable is so popular and thought to be so rhythmically exciting is the fact that the motor runs less than 1% fast. What are the big differences in STYLE that you hear besides the faster tempo.

West Coast style:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbYUFD3spTM

East Coast style:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=duMc7RCZoME


mary_jo, I’m flattered. Apology to your printer 😌. Nice clips.

"As you define "real", meaning emotionally from the heart, West Coast is less real, but that doesn't mean it's less jazzy."

You read too fast Frogman; the "you" in that sentence was referring to Rok, not me; he identifies some things different from me; I did not make that distinction.

Frogman, because you're a professional musician, you sometime don't see the forest for the trees; you get too hung up in the "nuts and bolts".

The "feel" of those two versions of "Nica's Dream" was different; one "felt" West Coast, and the other "felt" East Coast.

Frogman, I go by what I hear, not what musicians say; Bill Evans played a lot with Miles, I can't hear where Bill Evans began to sound like Miles.

mary_jo, I sincerely adored everything about your post, except; that scratchy recording of Dark Eyes by Yoska Gabor and his Gypsy Orchestra.

While I liked the music, the audiophile in me detests scratchy records.

This was recorded at the Montreaux Jazz Festival in Switzerland in June 1969. Both the Eddie Harris Quartet, and the Les McCann Trio performed with great success at the Festival. Later in the week, Eddie and Les felt like playing together. Benny Bailey, the great American trumpet player, who was living in Europe, was also there; he was asked by Eddie and Les to join them; the rest is history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCDMQqDUtv4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8YOLY4Tats


Les McCann and Eddie Harris spoke the same language; both those tunes were hits on the jukeboxes and the radio, something rare for jazz tunes.


1969 was also the most fantastic Summer of my life; when I went to lawn parties, I always brought plenty of Cold Duck Wine, and I inquired when I arrived, "What time is it?" always, the hearty response was "Its Cold Duck Time!".

Those were the days my friend, why did they have to end?

More from Ginger Baker. This is his trio sessions with Bill Frisell on guitar and Charlie Haden on bass. These 3 videos are from the same concert at the jazz festival in Frankfurt Germany. On the 3rd video Baker solo’s from 9 minute mark to 12:30, showing why he was such a highly regarded drummer of multiple genres of music. Circa 1995.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6iGLZL14w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCUWusjBxQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVF50PI3db4

Would other members like to share video's of other jazz drummers playing a kit with 2 bass drums as Baker does here as the majority of jazz drummers use a kit with one bass drum. In the first minute of the solo you can see both of Bakers legs pounding the pedals!...It was said that on some occasions his bass drums were nailed or screwed into the floor!

Ginger Baker in a drum solo duet with one of his idols Art Blakey. As I mentioned in an earlier post his top 3 influences on the drums were Blakey, Max Roach and Elvin Jones. Of course, being influenced by, and playing in style firmly rooted in jazz, he was an extraordinary drummer and far better then much of his contemporaries in the rock and roll genre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qghrsBfSbgk

This video is slightly more focused then the above. And I do mean SLIGHTLY! I wish I could have been there. 

Nah!  Not “hung up” at all, O-10.  I could just as easily point out that you get “hung up” on the “feeling” without taking into account that our feelings about things are always influenced by more than the reality of it.  Some even let cover art influence how they “feel” about music.  As usual, you mistakenly think that understanding the technical means that there is no appreciation of the feeling.  I have a different take on what is at the root of the disagreement, O-10 and it doesn’t have much to do with what is actually heard or not heard.  Best to leave it at that and not argue about it.  Personally, I don’t think you dig deep enough when you try and discuss these things and paint things with way too broad a brush.  I think that to “go only by what I hear” is a great thing....when it’s accompanied by a modicum of respect for the fact that none of us understand all that there is to understand.  Peace.

I have been very close to a few jazz persons. I refer to them as "persons" as opposed to musicians, because that’s a different relationship. While I idolized what they did on the bandstand, they were just friends of mine off the bandstand. I never understood how they did what they did, and they never discussed it.

From my observations, it took a lifetime for them to do what they did, and I don’t think they could explain it; it’s for sure I wouldn’t understand if they did; I understand very little about "improvisational jazz", but I like it.

While it's certain that West Coast is not as fast as East Coast, slow does not necessarily mean West coast; Miles "It Never Entered My Mind";



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Np8PJDGq_A

Gee, thanks, Rok.  First you ask for an explanation because.  Then, you don’t like and criticize the answer.  And, best of all, you then accuse the very person who you ask an explanation from of being illogical, agenda driven and dishonest.  Nice.  I asked for your explanation.  Why don’t you leave the personal stuff out of it and offer something cogent on the subject instead?  Familiar tune.  

East coast west coast, black/white, soul or no soul, rythm or no rythm.....I think its all a good and worthy debate. At the same time I did post some Ginger Baker jazz songs and Baker and his idol Art Blakey doing a drum duet. Black and white, both at the top tier of drummers in the world, playing off each other in and enjoying every moment. Both have cigarettes in their mouths with an inch of ash hanging off!


Can you guys lay off the debate for a second and let me know what you think of Bakers foray into jazz music?

Well how about it frogman, could you ignore rok2id and orpheus10 for a sec and weigh in on Baker?

orpheus10 thanks for taking the time to insert that link for It "Never Entered My Mind." during your debate.

I had forgotten how truly beautiful that song is.

Sure! Glad to 😊.  Will get back to you a little later.

Thanks acman3 for all the links. My favorite versions are the ones I have in my music library. Which are the Miles Davis, Chet Baker, and Stan Getz versions. Out of the vocal versions I favor Julie London. Wait a minute, I have that disc also. Maybe I'm being biased to what's in my collection. 

pjw & acman3

I listened yesterday to vol.s 2&3 of S Manne's live Blackhawk recordings on vinyl. Re: soundstage the vinyl produces a large and very wide soundstage with the piano to the left and rear of the left speaker and the trumpet forward and slightly to the right of the left speaker.  The drums were to the rear and right of the right speaker with the sax forward and slightly to the  right of the right speaker . Bass was several feet to the left of the right speaker. All of the instruments were solidly imaged and very clear. I would agree with acman3's observation of lack of center fill but I think this was a decision of the engineer's placement of the instruments. I will listen to vol. 1 either tonight or tomorrow and give more  feedback

Pjw, Always a fan of the "Going Back Home" recording. but wondered what Paul Motian or Billy Higgins would have done with the record.

Actually, I like the playing from Ginger Baker here live, better than the recording, and he looks like he is having fun. Maybe he found a guitarist and bass player who are good. :)

nsp, Thanks for the audiophile review of the vinyl LP's of Shelly Manne and His Men Live at the Blackhawk. I'm glad they were engineered and pressed properly.


The discs in the remastered 4 disc set which includes volumes 1-4 plus 5 ie: "the bonus tracks," Are awesome. I have already described the sound of disc one as best I could and this Friday will have a listening session with disc 2, 3, and 4.

I wrote a long comparison of Ginger Baker and people who had played the same songs off his "Going Back Home' cd with different groups.

 I then noticed that was not what Pjw asked. He wanted to know about the live videos, so I deleted my post. 

Just wanted to explain in case someone read the post before I deleted them.

acman3 Thanks for your input on the Ginger Baker jazz recordings. I think Motian or Higgins would have put their own excellent touch to it on the drum kit.


I have an eclectic taste in music and listen to just about everything. When Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce, and Ginger Baker got together to create the supergroup Cream, They played and recorded some very special music albeit in the rock/blues genre.  


Baker was an animal on the kit!! 

pjw
There are only 4 lps in the group I have.  i wonder if I  can purchase that 5th disc with extra cuts ?
re: Art Pepper Live at Ronnie Scotts I think you discovered that anything issued as Milcho Leviev Quartet is probably a duplication of the 4 disc set you have. I figure Laurie Pepper obtained the rights to that concert and most likely issued all material. I should purchase that cd set as I am a Pepper completist and only have one lp which was issued some 35 years ago. 
I will listen to G Baker vids when I have time and give my impression. I had several of his jazz oriented cds  some time ago but sold them. Just be aware I am was not a big fan of his jazz output in the past but will keep an open mind.
I also have another jazz drum battle story involving him to relate to you.

nsp, cool being a fellow Long Islander I would like to hear that. If not here my email is whelancontractor@gmail.com

nsp, right now I am listening to the following CD:  https://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Santana-Buddy-Miles-Live/dp/B00138D2HQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1535...

Live and ass kicking the song Free Form Funkafide Filth is off the charts!!

Check this out...Art Blakey with Billy Cobham and Simon Phillips 1982.... Ass kickin’!!

Art is like Yea boy’s bring it on I’m game!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBSxNNxtKtg

At 8:20 its like go Art go!!...I know so many drummers that idolize Art Blakey!

pjw is in the mood, I like that.

orpheus,
for the scratchy records, that is understandable from your side.

But I like them, I am quite nostalgic for old times (they remind me of them) and I am found of imperfections.

I guess I am not true audiophile.

pjw, you asked what I thought of Ginger Baker playing jazz.

Like you, I have always thought that Baker is a great drummer and I concur about the supergroup Cream; fantastic and epochal music. I have loved the group and Baker since my high school years. More about that group (Clapton) in a moment.

The first of your Baker/Frisell/Haden Trio clips was posted here about two years ago by contributor ghosthouse and this is what I wrote then:

**** 09-22-2016 3:33pm

The Ginger Baker clip I didn’t like; sorry. Thank god for Charlie Haden! He was the rock in that trio and sounds fabulous. Baker is unquestionably more than just a great rock drummer; but, he’s no jazz drummer. He does ok, but he just doesn’t have the chops and comfort in that language to really contribute on the level of the great jazz drummers and seems to be tagging along Haden’s amazing pulse. Speaking of great jazz drummers, some of my favorite Frisell was with Paul Motian:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFZ3X9CFuA ****

I have to say that aside from hearing that clip back then and again now (in addition to the others you posted) that those are the only times that I have heard Baker in anything other than a Rock bag. Ok, all that was for full disclosure.

After listening to the other clips that you posted I have to revise my feelings a bit. My feeling about the first of the trio clips have not changed and I would repeat what I said two years ago. On slower tempos and certainly on stuff that is “swingy”, while he certainly sounds competent, to my ears Baker just doesn’t quite have the finesse and touch of a great jazz drummer who can coax a lot of different colors from the it and, as I said before, he sounds a bit like he is tagging along for Haden’s drive. I feel he redeems himself quite a bit on the up tempo tunes and is much more in his comfort zone in those. I’m tempted to say he sounds really good “for a Rock drummer”, but that wouldn’t be fair since he’s a lot more than that. He is much more in control and at home with material that requires more volume and not as light a touch, imo. Really not that surprising considering his background. Playing slower tempos is fundamentally much harder than faster, more aggressive tempos. Frisell sounds amazing, btw; incredible player.

Baker is a monster drummer and he has a much wider range than the majority of players that came to jazz from the r&r side of things (I know he has played “jazz” since early in his career), but ultimately, when compared to great jazz drummers I don’t think he sounds any more convincing than Clapton sounds playing with Wynton’s band. Good, but......

For further full disclosure, I have to admit that when listening to players who are well known as rock players play jazz, I always think about the time I went to see Charlie Watts “play jazz” at “Sweet Basil” in NYC years ago. Embarrassing. He had the great British alto player Pete King with him who was almost able to save the day.

Thanks for all the great clips.

I just noticed that the above link is not working. Here is some favorite Paul Motian Trio.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaY1GVeHqKw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCCxBIoEZc

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks"; I bet if an old dog really wanted to learn new tricks, he could, but most old dogs like me, just find new tricks unnecessary; especially when compared to all the old tricks.

That was my introduction to the music I've been enjoying today; the music of "Sonny Stitt"; when Sonny Stitt met Charley Parker, Parker is alleged to have remarked, "Well, I'll be damned, you sound just like me", to which Stitt responded, "Well, I can't help the way I sound. It's the only way I know how to play."


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgaTwCNizRc


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4P4B2kl4Q



Enjoy.

Since we have mentioned some drummers and west coast players in recent discussions, I find this album to be quite appropriate to mention...

’...this time the drum’s on me’ by Stan Levey, from 1955.

https://youtu.be/NX_B-UEHDME

https://youtu.be/vtTjgGE9Zxk

pjw, my enthusiasm for Billy Cobham was based mainly on seeing him live with the Mahavishnu Orchestra in the early '70s.  They played in a small (200 or so capacity) local club and it was one of the most memorable concerts I've experienced.  We had a front row table and the energy and interchanges among the group made that happen.  Cobham was like a coiled spring that night except he never seemed to unwind!  He clearly drove the other four musicians (all pretty good in their own right, especially McLaughlin) with increasing energy.

As a result I bought a couple of albums with him as the leader.  While I enjoyed them too at the time they haven't held up for me like some other music of the period.  While not jazz, for those curious about such things they were "Spectrum" and "Crosswinds".

Rok, I'm a lot like the weather, you never know what to expect; lately it's been a stroll down long past memory lane, who knows what tomorrow will bring?