Jazz for aficionados
While the music in Africa, which was the point of origination, evolved; the music in Brazil, in Bahia for example, could be the same as when it left the continent of Africa hundreds of years ago. I find the Afro Brazilian music more pleasing to my musical sensibilities than the music of Africa, and some of it could be the African original, since it's traditional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ORkB1eKWE This music "Pops" like nothing I've heard recently. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, this time it's about the evolution of music from Africa since the time of slavery, and how it's represented in this hemisphere; that would also include a comparison of evolution in the reverse direction, meaning from here to Africa. It's really beautiful when you think of artists like Hugh Maselela, and Miriam Makeba where the evolution went in the reverse direction of my original post. Enjoy the music. |
**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.**** So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"): Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style: [URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo[URL] Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style: [URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo |
**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.**** So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and you get something like this; the "choro", the first popular Brazilian style: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46M-Eor8D08 |
Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Let's not move so fast of this 'African" stuff. It's not as simple as you are making out. The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz. Cultural forces don't move that fast. More like glaciers. The only possible African influence would have been from people arriving here directly from Africa during the slave trade. Importation of slaves into this country ended in 1810, if I recall correctly. Once here, the influences were Euro-American. Primarily music inspired by The King James version of the Holy Bible. Please don't make me have to fight off VooDoo!!! And to think, someone once chastised me for saying you have to DEFEND the music! :) And finally, O-10, this drum nonsense, is just that. Cheers |
Rok, I've always liked the "Voodoo music", just as much as I liked "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". (No one could have been in taller cotton) And I put as much religious connotation on Voodoo music as I put on "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". There are elements of the Voodoo drums in much of African music, that's why I want to strip the music from the religion as much as possible. This is an "audible" excursion, we are judging everything by ear. Enjoy the music. |
Is this about Jazz or Just music in general? My comments were made thinking it was about Jazz. As far as the Music part of this slavery stuff, there are many things to consider, such as: And this applies to Brazil, Cuba and the USA. Dominate Religion, Form of Government, Geographical location, climate, size of country, what was the economy based on, population size and ethnicity, and Political status of the area. all of these things will shape the people, their relationships with each other and the art the create. Folks in the USA had musical instruments to play. Violins (fiddles), guitars, pianos etc... Fife and Drum units were very big in North Mississippi. Maybe the folks in Cuba, and esp Brazil, only had drums (logs?) to beat. The relationship between slaves and whites in the US was much different than those relationships in Brazil or Cuba. This fact shaped everything! I could go on, but you get my point. BTW, there are more black folks in Brazil than any other country except Nigeria. If you go to Brazil during 'Carnival', you will see them. Any other time, maybe not. The Spanish came to the New World Looking for Gold. The English came looking for God. That explains a lot. You may be trying to merge apples with oranges. Cheers |
Nothing is being merged, we are talking about the origination of slaves and their music, this has absolutely nothing to do with the different races who came before or after. At this juncture, before we get back to our regularly scheduled programming of jazz, the question is what happened to the slaves music after they were imported to "America"? There is nothing in your post that answers this question. Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here. |
****The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz.**** Personally, I would word it slightly differently. There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American. |
The Frogman: *****There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American.**** My Response is "Numbers Count". So, while your statement is true, it is not true for real. As in, it does not reflect reality. I also charge you with using Jedi word tricks! :) I just knew you and our distinquished OP would renew your efforts to internationalize 'MY' music. Help me Jesus! Cheers |
****efforts to internationalize 'MY' music**** Why is that a bad thing? America is the epitome of internationalization; no? Re the music, you might find this interesting reading: http://books.google.com/books?id=ulLJUDmptFMC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=blue+notes+in+african+music&source=bl&ots=i1Ef8qb7Vk&sig=XqtXhhXVwANNGPOQB9aNPz9_vQQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0rR5Upm1F6nasASoo4L4Bw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=blue%20notes%20in%20african%20music&f=false Cheers. |
Rok, this has nothing to do with jazz, this is exclusively about music from Africa. We can conclude that the only surviving music from Africa in this country was "Voodoo music", and the only reason it survived is because it was so secretive. I've heard this very same music in movies, "Black Orpheus" from Brazil is one example. I'm sure that movie can be found on "You tube". The part where Orpheus goes to a ceremony in search of Eurydice is where you hear this music, including the same words and music that can be heard in New Orleans. These words are not Portuguese for Brazil, nor are they English for New Orleans, they are African. These words came with this music from Africa, and that was the only thing African that survived slavery in this country. Now we can go back to our regularly scheduled program of jazz. Enjoy the music. |
****Nothing is being merged**** Of course it is. The depiction of "voodoo music" in a Hollywood film like "Black Orpheus" is no more accurate than the depiction of nightclubs in films. I would go so far as to say that the way nightclubs were depicted is more accurate; that's the nature of the film industry. There are very few places on our planet where indigenous musics still exist unadulterated by modern society to some extent; and if they do, they are certainly not part of the mainstream. If the question is: why is African native music as heard in places like Brazil closer to that of the African slaves (and I say "closer" because I suspect that there a many places in Africa where it is still fairly close to what it was 200 years ago) than in the USA? The answer is obvious: the more a country becomes industrialized, modernized, whatever one wants to call it, the less "pure" any one native art form will remain. Isn't that exactly what has been happening to jazz? ****Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here.**** Really? Besides Africa itself, where? Perhaps, to a degree, in places like Haiti and remote parts of Brazil where the above comments apply; and even in those places the indegenous musics have "merged" with it. And BTW, here in NYC there at still places where one can buy live chickens; and NOT because fresh tastes better. The point is that it has survived to varying degrees everywhere, but in a country like ours it is much more "fringe" than in others. |
Frogman, this is from the movie, compare it to Voodoo around the world, including New Orleans to this on "You tube", and notice the similarities. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js0CAjUXv58 Canonical story[edit]Eurydice was the wife of Orpheus, who loved her dearly; on their wedding day, he played joyful songs as his bride danced through the meadow. One day, a satyr saw and pursued Eurydice, who stepped on a viper, dying instantly. Distraught, Orpheus played and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and deities wept and told him to travel to the Underworld to retrieve her, which he gladly did. After his music softened the hearts of Pluto and Persephone, his singing so sweet that even the Erinyes wept, he was allowed to take her back to the world of the living. In another version, Orpheus played his lyre to put Cerberus, the guardian of Hades, to sleep, after which Eurydice was allowed to return with Orpheus to the world of the living. Either way, the condition was attached that he must walk in front of her and not look back until both had reached the upper world. Soon he began to doubt that she was there, and that Hades had deceived him. Just as he reached the portals of Hades and daylight, he turned around to gaze on her face, and because Eurydice had not yet crossed the threshold, she vanished back into the Underworld. When Orpheus later was killed by the Maenads at the orders of Dionysus, his soul ended up in the Underworld where he was reunited with Eurydice. Enjoy the music. |
Acman3, this is the real deal all the way live, "makes me want to get up and boogie". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZnMmYJlE8 Enjoy the music. |
O-10: I did answer your question. You just have to fill in the details. Let me put it this way: Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, survives contact with American Culture!!! That's the answer to your question O-10. The details of the musical part of it, I leave to The Frogman. A few folks doing some so-called voodoo thing in Nawlins, is not the same as saying African music has survived in this country. A lot people in Nawlins are from the Islands, not American at all. Even to this day. Neither the Slaves nor any music they may have had, survived the culture clash. Hell, slavery itself could not survive it. The millions of Europeans immigrants of the 19th century did not survive. For example, the French know this, but, because of their arrogance and illusions of grandeur, are fighting a losing battle against it. The rest of the planet has happily succumbed. Worried about Chinese Power? You needn't. We have The Stones on Tour, Buick is the most popular car, and the Golden arches and KFC are everywhere. You can feel free to sleep like a baby. The slaves and their music never stood a chance. This was not a beating on a log type place. They lived in a 'European' country. Cuba and Brazil were colonies 'administered' by Europeans. There is a difference. Just a few things to ponder. These slaves did not all come from the same village. Hell, they didn't even have the same religion or language!! And once here, they were displaced all over the South. Sort of hard to mantain 'traditions' in that enviroment. How large a 'population/concentration' of people is required to sustain a culture? EVERYONE was not a musician or even cared about music. And lastly, an inferior culture will always succumb to and try to adapt to a superior culture. That's just human nature. Beating on a log or western music? Who do you think is gonna win that one. Also. America was the land of oppourtunity even by slave standards. Maybe not so much in Cuba or Brazil. The Frogman was on target with his comments. Cheers Suggested reading: 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and 'The Diary of Mary Chesnut' |
Frogman, I was in Haiti about 3 years after this movie was made, and Haiti was very much like the movie, "weird beyond belief". In regard to the voodoo music, it's like the air they breath; we were riding up a mountain trail on a half ass (that's a cross between a horse and a donkey) in "Cap Haitian", and on the side of the road, one kid was beating out this voodoo rhythm on a metal shovel that had been left by a road crew, while other kids were dancing to the music like their bodies had no bones. They did this to amuse themselves, it had nothing to do with tourism or anything else. I only saw the movie many years after I had gone to Haiti, had I seen the movie first, I would not have gone to Haiti. Movies can come very close to reality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOoFiCgcprU |
O-10, fascinating account of your trip to Haiti. This is an interesting essay that addresses, and corroborates, some of your points: http://www.africa.kyoto-u.ac.jp/kiroku/asm_normal/abstracts/pdf/21-2/45-54.pdf |
Rok, I just got a book every jazz aficionado should have, it has photos of all the musicians we've discussed, and then some. This book includes the intimate thoughts and wishes of all the greats. The title of this book is "Three Wishes"; compiled and photographed by Pannonica De Koenigswarter, in it she asks the jazz greats if they could have three wishes fulfilled, what would the be? There is a beautiful photograph of a young Lee Morgan, sitting up sound asleep. The baby fuzz on his smooth face, and jet black hair tell his age. His three wishes were: 1. "To be held in high esteem by my fellow jazzmen, as well as the audiences-I mean jazz public." 2. "To make oodles of money, and use it wisely." 3. "To make a wonderful husband and father." It's for certain his first wish was fulfilled, he's still my favorite on trumpet; but his life was cut too short for the last two wishes. Miles Davis is madder than a march hare; his photos are the most outrageous in the book, and his one wish was "To be white". Ironically his life fulfilled most of the other musicians wishes, which were fame and fortune. Although there is no photo of "Bird", all of his colleagues are well represented. As I said, this is a must have for serious aficionados. |
*****Well, it's pretty obvious to me**** Me also. I just thought the 'high-end' would have made a better showing. Actually I didn't think that. It's just that, given the results, why ask the question and/or do the 'test' in the first place. Given that they 'published' the results, I thought it would demonstrate how close the two were. As you said, no contest. Cheers |
I meant to write this 'review' last night, but I had this terrific headache. I NEVER have headaches! Then I thought, maybe The O-10 is messing with those Voodoo dolls of his. In the future, I will be more prudent when addressing The O-10. A hint to the wise! Today's Listen: Sonny Clark -- LEAPIN' AND LOPIN' Clarke(p), Ike Quebec & Charlie Rouse (ts), Tommy Turrentine(t), Butch Warren(b), Billy Higgins(d) Clark's last session as leader. Some feel his best effort. This is a thoroughly enjoyable CD. The playing and the the tunes are just spot on. Tommy Turrentine, older brother of Saxman stanley, is a find for me. Excellent trumpet playing and tone. Had not heard him before. And We all know about Rouse with Monk, but there is a lot more to him than that, as his soloing on this CD demonstrates. I think Clarke died when he was 31/32. What a waste. I love his playing. When you think of all the greats we lost in their 20's and 30's, it's just a shame. What could have been. Ike just sits in on the tune 'deep in a dream'. The only ballard and maybe the highlight of the CD. That and 'voodoo' were my favorites. This is one of the better hard bop Blue Note sessions. Everything was just 'right'. Absolutely no irritants. If you are a Sonny Clark fan, then you must have this. It is for sure him at the top of his game. If you just like Jazz, then you ought to have it. Along with his, 'Sonny's Crib' and 'Cool struttin' Cheers |
Rok, even Sonny Clark Knew about voodoo; but on a more serious note, "Deep In A Dream" is my favorite cut on that CD. "Ike Quebec respects the beauty inherent in the song, at the same time investing it with his own personality. This perfect balance really brings the message across". I repeat "Respects the beauty inherent in the song". Here's my favorite tune by Ike, "Heavy Soul"; he was dying from terminal cancer when he recorded this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwc1bTn7Fd8 Enjoy the music. |
Here is my favorite cut from "Sonny's Crib". The artists are: Donald Byrd, trumpet; Curtis Fuller, trombone; John Coltrane, tenor sax; Sonny Clark, piano; Paul Chambers, bass; Art Taylor, drums. I believe all of these artists have photographs, and appear in the book "Three Wishes", Pannonica De Koenigswarter. Sonny Clark's three wishes were: 1. "Money" 2. "All the bitches in the world" 3. "All the Steinways in the world" This is one of the most beautiful versions of "Speak Low" I've ever heard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prHxoFepR0A Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Mingus Big band -- QUE VIVA MINGUS Too many players to list. This CD is a tribute to Mingus' love of, and use of, Latin rhythms in his music.. 10 tunes. All by Mingus. The tunes' Latin rhythms range from Columbia to Mexico To Cuba. A few tunes were 'latinized' such as 'eat that chicken'. very nice although the vocals were better on the orginal. But the tune works! There is nothing I could possibly add to the liner notes. Excellent and very detailed review of each tune. Among the best liner notes I have ever read. Written by Sue Mingus. I wish I could do that. She did use this quote from Composer/historian Gunther Schuller speaking of Mingus' compositions. "there is nothing quite like them in the avant-garde or European Classical music. Mingus himself considered his music to be outside category, neither Jazz nor Classical. "It's 'American Music'," he once said. "Or better yet, just call it Mungus." Relates to our previous discussions. The entire brass section shines on this CD. Esp Randy Brecker. As a bonus, a photo of the entire group with names to ID them. You know you want it! Cheers |
Frogman, here again we agree on "Trane". When I saw him live, he even lost McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones. Miles said that Trane played for Trane on live sets; while that was true, talk about the pot calling the kettle black; when I saw Miles I didn't know what he was playing; but when Trane was with Miles was the time I liked both of them best. Jazz musicians used live sets for experimentation, and that made a lot of sense when you think about it. Those were gigs at small clubs, and not like Carnegie hall, what better places to experiment? This is "classic" Trane on a tune I like a lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt0D40JTCBY Enjoy the music. |
HeHeHe,Talk about tying it all together, Coltrane, Africa, and for ROK, 4 French horns and a tuba. Conducted by Eric Dolphy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4YZwFa_1w |
Acman3: There was a tuba on the Mingus Big Band CD I posted. I meant to mention it, but forgot. Guess they are more common than I thought. Now all we need is a full CD of solo Tuba! I could put it right next to my CDs of solo Harp and solo Bassoon! Thanks for post. I have that CD by Coltrane. Now I will listen to it. Cheers |
One of my favorite modern trumpeters, Dave Douglas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpK69hHcfKw&list=PLA989DAB13E7299B7 |
Acman3, you really tied it together. Trane was on a spiritual journey that he was beginning to express through his music. I believe Alice Coltrane, his wife, exemplified the destination Trane was trying to reach. Her music is filled with Trane's spirituality just before he died. Here we can hear it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2HwbFLh5j0 Since leaving the music we've been into, and going to Alice Coltrane is like stepping out of hot water, and then getting into cold; you have to listen to more music in that groove in order to absorb it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smisXZ7KVpo Like it or not Rok, this is where Trane was headed, he took some way out trips on live sets; that's where he played music that was totally unfamiliar to fans of the "old Trane", that music was a preview of things to come. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: Alice Coltrane: I liked the "Blue Nile' the best. Probably because of the guys playing on the set. Both cuts were easy on the ears. I have noticed that if you use the mouse to skip ahead on the music, you find that one point sounds the same as any other point. Like you are not missing anything. No Beginning, middle, or end. Her harp is nice. I like it. Cheers |
Today's Listen: Various -- THE SMITHSONIAN COLLECTION OF CLASSIC JAZZ This is the 'Revised' remastered edition, released in 1987. The original was released in 1973 on LP. The sound quality on this set is much improved. This is a 5 CD set. Starts with Scott Joplin and Jelly Roll Morton, and ends with Ornette Coleman and The World Saxophone Quartet. The sound quality on the early stuff is AMAZINGLY good. The later stuff is good also. The package is typical Smithsonian. Well done with many nice touches. Great detail on all the tracks. Includes the soloists, and the order of their solos. Date and place recorded and personnel. A 102 page booklet. Repeats the liner notes of each disc and includes great pictures. The historical information is priceless in itself. They didn't miss many of the greats. Below is a link to the tune list. http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Smithsonian-Collection-Of-Classic-Jazz/release/457754 The sound on the 1973 release was not good. The Scorr Joplin tune 'maple leaf rag' is a recording of a piano roll made before electric recording. Sounds just fine here. No filler. All great tunes. Even includes two(2) versions of O-10's favorite, 'East St. Louis Toddle-Oo' by Duke Ellington! :) All Jazz people should have this. I am becoming a fan of these complilations. Like the '50 Greatest Jazz Tunes' I posted about earlier. Sometimes you just don't feel like an entire CD of Coltrane, or anyone else. Cheers |
Rok, I was inspired by the book "Three Wishes", to find songs written in honor of "Pannonica De Koenigswarter" . Although there are twenty songs written in her honor, and I'm sure everyone has many different versions of "Nica's Dream" written by Horace Silver, I could find only one other tune that I liked. Maybe you or Frogman can find other songs written in her honor that you like. "Pannonica" by Monk captures the essence of a beautiful fluttering butterfly, which is what the lady of jazz was named after. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSHkPCW8dN4 Enjoy the music. |
