Mark Murphy's rendition of "Stolen Moments" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsvTPeAYfuATerry Kath, the great guitarist from the band Chicago (one of my favorites) and vocalist on many of their songs, has a similar tone. When I heard Murphy the first time I immediately thought of Kath. The great Terry Kath on guitar on lead vocals. The piano intro ends at about a minute in and he starts singing (for all you jazz fans not familiar with the song). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UOP6l82vU0Chicago has always been one of my favorite bands of any genre all time. First "big band" rock group using a brass section to break into the pop charts regularly but at the same time not "sell out" and still play great innovative music that you cant really "categorize" Terry Kath's vocals engineered in a studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWkXmx-0phc |
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That’s very funny, pjw, The Jetsons. I get it. MT can be a bit of an acquired taste. I find that reaction to them can be a little like the way some rockers react to Steely Dan. It’s that “look how hip I can be!” vibe. I think I referred to it as “urban chic”. Still, the singing and the tightness of the harmonies are pretty great. When in a certain mood, I like it. |
frogman, The vocal rendition to Body And Soul by the Manhattan Transfer was not to my liking. As a matter of fact, the first thing that came to my mind when I listened was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq6Tofmo7E |
What was on the clowns mind who stopped them; he was not an aficionado, I heard the last beginning as being better than what they played after the interruption. Monk done got pissed, he ready to forget about it and go home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In16H9J72HY |
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Lyrics for "Stolen Moments" are pure genius, they fit the music, and they work for me as permanent in the case of the original music.
Monk played "Round Midnight" differently, every single solitary time he played it, now I'll let someone else tell me how many times he played it. With that knowledge, does anyone think he had some kind of lyrics in mind?
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Rok's post where he mentioned Dee Dee's interpretation of Horace Silvers music is the best example of where I'm coming from.
Dee Dee used words to describe Silver's music, but that's not the same as permanent lyrics; they lock you into thinking about the same thing every time you hear the music, and that's what "Round Midnight" is not about.
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I haven't changed my mind about the lyrics, I will put that into it's proper perspective. |
O-10, the lyrics for NY Voices’ “Stolen Moments” were written by Mark Murphy. I posted his rendition of the tune with his lyrics just above your NY Voices post. I have always liked NY Voices; not quite the singers that Manhattan Transfer are, but I like their arrangements. Nice rendition of Murphy’s lyrics. And very nice “Round Midnight”. Glad to see you changed your mind about the lyrics for that tune. Along the same lines as setting lyrics to a tune is setting lyrics to a solo. Manhattan Transfer’s take on Coleman Hawkins’ famous and ground breaking solo on “Body and Soul”: https://youtu.be/7oyemhTQjBw |
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An "abstract" work of art, whether it's a painting, a sculpture, or in this case "jazz", which is an abstract musical art, takes on a life of it's own once it leaves the artist who created it. Examples of this are infinite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gX9Tcci3nM |
No mention of Dee Dee and her Horace Silver Interpretations???
All good to listen to, but they are also very forgettable, preventing a person being trapped. The best kind of Jazz lyric, for Jazz instrumental music, great when you hear them, but they don't linger forever. Leaving the way open to even better lyrics in the future.
Cheers |
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Rok, I wouldn't advise it, too many "Dippy" lyrics have already been written to good music. You know, the only way I'll believe that Monk was going to attach some "Dippy" lyrics to "Round Midnight" is if he tells me himself; we know how likely that is.
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*****
I am in the process of writing the lyrics to Mingus' Hog Calling Blues.*****
On second thought, maybe not.
Cheers |
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Yes, that was Bobby all right.
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Excellent Clips from The OP and The Frogman. I hesitate to ask, but was that Mcferrin on the round midnight clip? I'm still trying to figure out what kind of horn that was. That was Wonderful.
The first clip said I was not old enough to watch it.
I am in the process of writing the lyrics to Mingus' Hog Calling Blues.
Stay tuned.
Thanks to all for some great music.
Cheers
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Thanks, pjw and great point, Alex. Pryso, I had started writing a post yesterday re “other tunes with added lyrics” which I didn’t post for no particular reason, but the first example was going to be Manhattan Transfer’s “Birdland”. First, let me say I have never been a huge Weather Report fan. I mostly like their stuff, but I am mixed about some of the other. One of the main reasons that I do like some of their things is the presence of Wayne Shorter who, for me, can practically do no wrong ; one of the great geniuses of the music. Their “Birdland”, catchy melody that it is and all has always struck me as kinda “lite”; “pop-ish”. I love Manhattan Transfer’s version. They took the pop vibe of the tune and went to town with it; pulled out all the stops with their signature urban chic vocal style. IMO, it works big time. Rok, great clips; love Dexter. Perhaps it was unintended, perhaps not; but, great “segue” with the Dexter Gordon mention and clips given the discussion about lyrics. Dexter was known for always learning the lyrics to a song before performing it. He would actually recite some of the lyrics as an intro to the tune when performing it: https://youtu.be/RnZm8IJ9k20 |
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There is a female vocalist who's famous, that nobody has mentioned, but I've been playing one of her CD's that I bought in 1999 every since; that's 20 years. It's very uncharacteristic of me to play any music on a regular basis for this long, but she hits all the right notes on this album for me. The artist is Carly Simon, and the title of the CD is "Film Noir". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_Noir_(album)Every cut on this CD is boss for me, and they all seem to remind me of the love of my life; the first one especially; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wta3xkqJoEven now, when I hear this song, I think about her; maybe there was someone in your past that you'll never forget. |
You say that “Maiden Voyage” is no good with lyrics; seemingly without exception. Yet, you posted a Mandrade clip of “Maiden Voyage” which supposedly had lyrics and you referred to it as “boss”. I’m confused. Regards. I kept waiting for the words in the Andrade “Mayden Voyage” 🤔. One of my favorite tunes and Herbie has been quoted as saying that it is his favorite of all his compositions. Words were set to the tune by his sister some time after Herbie wrote the tune. Here are favorite versions; with the lyrics this time 😉: I misspoke Frogman, thank you for correcting me; it was just with her voice and the music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yab_N9a4Oc |
frogman,
Great post especially this part:
"One of the great things about art, in this case music, is that while it is true that sometimes the artist is very specific about the meaning, the listener is more times than not free to attach his own personal significance to the music or lyrics. There is no point in arguing about it. There is no right or wrong."
alex,
Your observation about the vocal version and instrumental version of the same song and its affect on your guests is correct unless your guests are true jazz fans. I have seen the same reaction with my guests.
pryso,
Great hair styles on those girls in your second link. Ahh the 80's....
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Pryso, I definitely have a preference; the one without words.
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Sometimes when I 'entertain' (jazz music is not considered as entertaiment for the most) the guests who visit me I ve noticed that if I first play them the vocal version of some standard, they become much more aware of that same song which is later played as instrumental version only. When movie 'Casablanca' was made, they filmed few alternative endings. Should that fact change our opinions about the 'worth' of that film? Personally, I dont think so, either you like it or not... https://youtu.be/JMOBxjIvLBE |
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O-10, what I pointed out about the lyrics to “Round Midnight” is not according to me; it is all well documented and easily researched. I included a link to the comments by author of a Monk biography; you may find it interesting. That is only one of many accounts of this. In answer to your question, there is no great mystery to how the lyrics where changed. Here is another pretty good account of the history of the tune and the lyrics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Round_Midnight_(song)IMO, this discussion is much to do about nothing. Sometimes adding lyrics to a wordless tune works, sometimes it doesn’t. Some of us may like certain lyrics, some of us may not. Why “feel trapped” by any of it? As I said previously it is “apples and oranges”. A wordless tune can stand on its own and sometimes it is enhanced by good lyrics. Personally, I have never felt that added lyrics detract from the greatness of a tune, even when I don’t like the lyrics. I think all this highlights a point that I made early in this thread. There is sometimes a tendency on the part of non-practitioners to overly romanticize the process of composing or playing music and art in general; often much more than the artists themselves do. Composing a tune is not always solely the result of great inspiration. It is often an arduous process and sometimes the artist simply gets lucky. I think that Round Midnight is a good example of this. By most accounts Monk wrote the tune, then titled “I Need You So”, when he was 19 years old; hardly someone with a tremendous amount of life experience that might give his tune some deep hidden meaning. He wrote it hoping he would have a “hit”. He changed the title to “Round Midnight” much later. One of the great things about art, in this case music, is that while it is true that sometimes the artist is very specific about the meaning, the listener is more times than not free to attach his own personal significance to the music or lyrics. There is no point in arguing about it. There is no right or wrong. The fact that a tune started out wordless in no way invalidates lyrics that may be thoughtful, intelligent and may add greatly to the tune. Obviously, sometimes the lyrics may not be very good; probably the reason that Monk’s original lyrics were abandoned and replaced with better ones. However, I am curious about something, O-10 and would appreciate some clarification. You say that “Maiden Voyage” is no good with lyrics; seemingly without exception. Yet, you posted a Mandrade clip of “Maiden Voyage” which supposedly had lyrics and you referred to it as “boss”. I’m confused. Regards. |
Alex, unfortunately, only the first of the Barry Galbraith clips is “available” according to YouTube. Loved it! Thanks for that. Great swinging arrangement from Al Cohn, one of the unsung heroes of the arranging world. Hint of a West Coast vibe, although all East Coast players. Hal McKusik is another unsung hero who I think I mentioned quite a while back. I had the pleasure of meeting him years ago. Great player and a real character who would fly his own plane from his home in Long Island to gigs in NYC. He and Galbraith were good friends. https://youtu.be/tl7Uc2yOj6QHal on clarinet: https://youtu.be/SFlFwJmVDvg |
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Most jazz tunes are wordless music, it's only much later on that someone comes up with words for the tune. According to Frogman, Thelonious Monk originally wrote these lyrics for "Round Midnight"
Since you went away, I missed you.
Every hour, I wish to kiss you.
You are in my dreams always. I need you so.
You are my own.
Still, I am all alone, longing, waiting.
I love you so, darling.
This is why I’ll go on believing you’ll be standing by my side sooner than I realize.
I need you so.
I have been listening to jazz all of my life, and this is the very first time I heard that. He even gave us a long story about how the song was originally called "I Need You So". You'll have to ask Frogman how the words changed to what we are now familiar with.
When I hear music that normally has words, I still hear the words. When those of you who prefer words to "Round Midnight" and "Maiden Voyage" hear those tunes, do you still hear the words when the music is played without them?
I find that words trap you into the same scenario even when you're listening to the music without the words, you still hear them.
It begins to tell 'round midnight, midnight
I do pretty well till after sundown
Supper time I'm feelin' sad
But it really gets bad 'round midnight
Memories always start 'round midnight
Haven't got the heart to stand those memories
When my heart is still with you
And ol' midnight knows it too
When a quarrel we had needs mending
Does it mean that our love is ending?
Darlin', I need you; lately I find
You're out of my heart and I'm out of my mind
Let our…
I don't want to be trapped into those lyrics every time I hear "Round Midnight", even when there is just beautiful music without words. Not only that, but if I were in that situation, I would be looking for a replacement round midnight, that's why I think it's a girls thing.
When I was younger, the girls I met didn't like jazz and they called it music without words. And for the most part, I can live with that; the words are usually written for the music with words at the same time as the music, not years later.
Just yesterday is the first time I was made aware of the fact that there were words to "Maiden Voyage"; thank God I never heard them before; then I would be hearing those same words every time I heard "Maiden Voyage".
I find aficionados are highly individualistic, but there's room for us all.
Who knew?! Who knew that Sassy, Ella, Carmen, June, Betty and.....weren’t aficionad(a)os?
No, they're "Divas".
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Me too, O-10. I first heard it in 1976 while in college. George Coleman’s great tenor solo was the first tenor solo I had ever transcribed. The tune brings back a lot of memories.
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Frogman, when I heard Maiden Voyage in 66, there were no lyrics, just music.
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nsp, I don’t know that Randy was considered better than Michael, but he was the senior of the two. By the time Michael was making a name for himself, Randy was already well established. Maybe that was it. Both great players. I’ll have to try Pink Ladies; thanks for the tip. O-10, I thought that DNSO clip seemed familiar:
**** orpheus10 OP6,534 posts05-09-2018 10:14am I’m not a classical expert, but I found something I liked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkM71JPHfjkthis is too tough, and it exemplifies how all the various musicians in a symphony contribute to the whole better than anything I’ve ever seen. I can’t decide who is the most attractive, the wa wa girl or the conductor; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niv522mbtMShe can Wa Wa and whistle to. Nothing has ever explained a symphony to me like these two clips. **** |
frogmanPink lady are my favorite. A little bit tart like a granny smith but sweet also. I have to agree with you and disagree with O10. concerning putting lyrics to Maiden Voyage and Round Midnight. I I enjoyed the scat singing on the maiden voyage cut O10 posted but to me the lyrics written fit the song very well. The lyrics suggest of a first love and the journey taken. Not surprising that you and the OP are in disagreement😁 Re: Mark Murphy I love his vocal phrasing especially on Maiden Voyage where he uses his vocal phrasing to syncopate and really make the song Swing. Randy Brecker's solo on "on the red clay "is terrific. seems like Randy Brecker got most of the solo space on those two cuts from that LP. Was he considered better than Michael Brecker at the time that album came out? this Mark Murphy cut of a well kn own standard from another LP is one of my favorites. And believe it or not I like Mark Murphy's ballad Renditions even more than his up-tempo work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsvTPeAYfuA |
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Frogman, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly - The Danish National Symphony Orchestra (Live) is the first time I have ever seen a symphony orchestra; it's quite fascinating, all those people playing one song together; when they start playing "hard bop" I'm going to the symphony.
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I like fiction, O-10. I like facts, too. Better? I like Granny Smiths best 😋 |
And then in the bridge, she wrote: You are my own. Still, I am all alone, longing, waiting. I love you so, darling. This is why I'll go on believing you'll be standing by my side sooner than I realize. I need you so.
Now we go from that to the lyrics in "Round Midnight"?
My fiction is better than your facts Frogman.
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O-10, you may find this of interest: Monk first wrote “Round Midnight” with the “drippy, girl type” title “I Need You So”. He wrote it while romancing his first wife. He, himself, and with the help of a friend wrote lyrics and the song was his attempt to get a hit. He later changed the title to “Round Midnight”. The lyrics that we are familiar with were written later still. Some of the original lyrics: ##### Since you went away, I missed you. Every hour, I wish to kiss you. You are in my dreams always. I need you so. You are my own. Still, I am all alone, longing, waiting. I love you so, darling. This is why I’ll go on believing you’ll be standing by my side sooner than I realize. I need you so.
#### https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=121197087Who knew?! Who knew that Sassy, Ella, Carmen, June, Betty and.....weren’t aficionad(a)os? 😱 https://youtu.be/MnUqorTHj74https://youtu.be/wgssRuMfF5E |
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Jazz is a little like abstract art, the artist paints a picture and gives it a title, the title depicts what the painting is all about; you may, or you may not grasp what the artist had in mind. Each "connoisseur" who looks at the painting will grasp the idea, but each of them will see it slightly different; that's the nature of art. Sometime the music and the lyrics are "right on"; such is the case of "Moanin". Bobby Timmons projected the depths of the emotion of being "down and out"; the lyrics to the tune do likewise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjRQo-zpKA'Maiden Voyage' is a 1965 jazz composition by Herbie Hancock. Lyrics were later added by his sister Jean HANCOCK: See the sky, let's explore it's hue. Tide is high, time for your debut. Like a ship, you must leave this bay. On this trip, you'll learn love today. The time has come to take a dare. Maiden voyage, a first affair. Set your sails to cast away. Chart your course of love today. Now we're clear, homeward bound are we. Listen dear, as you sound your sea. Soon you'll cry, lovely things you'll say. Sail on high, you'll learn love today. In my opinion, these lyrics are stretching the thing far beyond what Herby was thinking when he composed the music. The picture on the cover shows one man on a small sailing craft. The music captures the feeling of a "maiden voyage"; movement: waves, ocean breezes, the exhilaration and excitement of a "maiden voyage". The lyrics are nice, but they don't work for me and the music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwmRQ0PBtXU One might feel the same exhilaration and excitement while listening to this music and taking a "maiden voyage" in an automobile. |
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Hi guys! Love to read you, as always. But can't participate that often, I have a lot on my mind at this moment. One is a need for a better guitar that haunts me for quite a while and I am in crusade for buying new one. Checked most of the respective music stores in my country but among some strong brands, only one captured my attention so wanna go further in the search. Currently abroad in Slovenia, sittin' on the dock of the bay (meanin' in a small coffe shop, heavy rain outside), somebody here has a good taste in music 'cause currently is playing https://youtu.be/vJJONpQiQZ4Same song but check the instrument https://youtu.be/lY7sXKGZl2wI just wonder how far will I go... Deus vult. Regards to all. p.s. Donno where Alex is. Probably hiding somewhere ha ha...but he is probably following the thread and will pop out eventually, when least expected. :--)) ;--) |
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