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frogman Thanks for the clarification, Maybe if I can find the time I can delve a little deeper into the article and it might change my assessment of the author. When one looks at it from the perspective of the many labels and recordings that van Gelder engineered You do get a sense of how important He was in the documentation Of the jazz music of that time. And We should feel lucky that these smaller labels flourished at that time and the music was made available.
In research regarding the lp
"Somethin Else" I found a recording date of March 9th 1958. BTW Cannonball did not write any of the tunes On the album. Of the six Tunes miles wrote won the title song, Hank Jones another and Nat Adderley a third one. . The other three were standards.
Your points are well taken. It's an intriguing question. Obviously miles was signed to Columbia Records by this time. ? And probably wouldn't have received permission to be the leader on another labels album. Miles also did not take a backseat to anyone at this point in his career And would not have taken well To receiving directions about how to "play" on an album.
Not that that would have happened because I have never seen anything in writing Or a video interview with a jazz musician where they were told What or how to play. In fact, the opposite is true.
But it still is Cannonballs name at the top And until someone close to the recording / production says otherwise, I guess we'll have to accept that.
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The DVD, "I Called Him Morgan" gripped my attention from the first minute to the last. There were nothing but good people in this DVD; I could relate to all the people and events. In many ways it was the life I lived, I’ve never been a musician but I was always in lounges where they played, and had musician friends.
The two biggest factors in Lee Morgans death, were Lee Morgan and the weather. "I love you, I will kill you, but I will love you forever". That is the nature of so many women, it must be respected. If yours truly had not been young and fast, he would not be writing this thread.
I wont say anymore and ruin it for anyone who wants to see it; highly recommended.
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Today's Listen: John Coltrane -- LUSH LIFE See, he wasn't always lost in Andromeda. A Rudy Van Gelder engineered production on Prestige Records. The cover does not mention this, guess that came later with Blue Note. from the you-tube screen: "Lush Life contains Coltrane’s first recordings as sole leader, his initial date fronting a pianoless trio, and one of his first extended readings of a ballad, Billy Strayhorn’s resplendent title track. We also hear him at the helm of a quartet and quintet, featuring pianist Red Garland, with trumpeter Donald Byrd added to “Lush Life.” Coltrane and jazz would never be the same!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccHkX_M9ajQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFj8cfYEt8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyGMu62BYCU
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Oscar Pettiford is my favorite bassist; while Mingus has the most creative music, no one can play music on a bass like Pettiford.
Those tunes are my favorites by Oscar Pettiford; they remind me of the first time I heard them, it was when I was a teenager in the Summer of 56 on the South side of Chicago. I lived with my older cousin who bought several jazz albums every week.
Since I was a teenager, I couldn't participate in the night life, but that didn't stop me from fantasizing. "Bohemia After Dark"; just after dark when light through the windows of the skyscrapers began to shine, was when my fantasy began. I imagined all the pleasures the hip people were indulging in, and the day I would join them.
Sweet memories of the "Southside" always come back when I hear those tunes, even when I hear them like I've never heard them before. I walked down 65th street to Lake Michigan everyday for a swim, and in the process passed open windows with music blaring out of them. That was an adventure; jazz out of this window, doo wop out of that window, Blues out of the window further on. There was never a dull moment on the Southside, not even when peacefully walking down the sidewalk.
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There are those who attempt to square the circle, but after they are finished, curves remain. There are those who attempt to "circle the square", but after they are finished, corners remain. They are the same people who try to fit round pegs into square holes, and square pegs into round holes; but they gotta do what they gotta do.
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Thank you Acman, I will look deeper into everything you posted.
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Acman, the music is interesting, but there is absolutely nothing in writing about the music or the artist?
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nsp, re your question: You should probably read the whole article since the author’s is actually a pretty sober outlook on RVG’s legacy. He is not putting down the sound quality of RVG’s work. He is simply making the point that RVG’s most important contribution to music and the recording art is that due to his affordable rates he was able to facilitate recordings by many great emerging Jazz artists that would not have been able to record otherwise. These emerging artists, who did not have contracts with the large labels like Columbia, would not have been able to afford to record so many of the records that we now consider classics. His recordings had a certain sound that was in great part the result of his limited resources, equipment and recording space wise. The sound was up close and intimate. However, his sound and his general approach had detractors including musicians who refused to record for him because they felt that he altered their personal sound. As is to be expected, some of these recordings sounded good, even great, and some didn’t sound so good. When one considers the sheer volume of recordings that he produced for the above reason, it is no wonder that there are many good sounding RVG recordings. The author’s contention that RVG was not a recording pioneer or genius is borne out by the simple fact that, as you yourself point out, there were other labels/engineers producing records that sounded as good or better. You are correct that having more and better equipment and larger spaces does not guarantee a good sounding product. That was not at all what he was claiming. A talented engineer with access to better equipment and a better recording space will surely have a better chance of producing a better sounding recording than if he has to use inferior equipment in an inferior space. I think we can all agree that the large record labels and their engineers also produced great (some would say better) sounding records. Re “Somethin Else”: I am reminded of when my then Cub Scout son participated in his troupe’s “Pinewood Derby”. Each scout is given a block of wood, four nails and four plastic wheels. The challenge is to fashion a race car using only those materials while following strict guidelines as to dimensions and weight. The cars are then raced. All sorts of tweaks are permissible to make the car travel as fast as possible. A great opportunity for father/son interaction with the goal being to help the child while making sure that it is still HIS effort, HIS car. Well, you can imagine how easy it is for a father to take over and actually do most of the work while “helping” the child. The level of wood working and painting skill that some of the race cars demonstrated made it obvious that it was the father who had fashioned the car, not the young child. I gave several specific and detailed reasons that to me were indications that Miles was actually the “father” on the date. You can read those in my previous post on the subject: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jazz-for-aficionados/post?highlight=Somethin%2BElse&posti...I would ask those challenging this opinion to, in light of the above, give specific and detailed reasons other than the fact that Cannoball’s name is on the album jacket that are indications that it is Cannonball who is the leader; that it is his car. Btw, Cannonball wrote only one tune on the record. |
Nsp, Somethin' Else is a jazz album by saxophonist Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, released on Blue Note Records in 1958. Also on the session is trumpeter Miles Davis in one of his handful of recording dates for Blue Note.
Sideman definition, (Jazz) a member of a band or a jazz group other than the leader. I believe Miles Davis qualifies as a "sideman" on that album.
Miles Davis wrote the title tune, and that was all he wrote on that album, but it was a very good tune.
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orpheus10Right RVG Had the musicians and I'm damn glad he did!!
Question: I saw some debate about who was the leader on Something Else? Miles or Cannonball. I couldn't locate my LP copy to answer this question. My question is : who wrote the tunes on the lp that weren't standards. If it was all miles or all Cannonball for the other tunes that would give an indication of who was the leader.
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geoffkait Thanks for the clarification. I guess I didn't Dig Deep enough into the article. Were those Savoy CDs the ones you were concerned about sound quality? Or is it anything that RVG did prior to 1959? I may have something on Savoy CD or vinyl engineered by RVG prior to 1959, will have to check into that
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My first 'analog' was a floor console that had a record platter in the top. Had a tone arm, the head portion which could be positioned at a 90 degree angle to changes the needle / nail. My records were 78rpm disc taken from local Juke joint's Seeburg Jukeboxes.
Groups were blues, and folks like the Orioles, the Cardinals and the Ink Spots. Those were the days.
Now you know why I love CDs.
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Nsp, he was right, they (movie people for one) had the equipment that made better recordings, while Rudy had the musicians who made better music. What do you want, the best recording or the best music, jazz fans couldn't have both.
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Rok, Unfortunately for us, as we age we don’t hear as well. We might be wise not to purchase expensive stuff that we can’t hear. A lot of what he’s saying makes good sense; especially in regard to stuff that’s "chip" based.
I noticed that he didn’t get into turntables. High end turntables are expensive. The turntables we used before CD were very cheap in comparison. I had one ( 200.TT) and everybody I knew had TT’s in that price range in the 70’s. They spun at 33 1/3 and sounded good to us, but there was no comparison to CD; that’s why we ditched them in a hurry for CD’s and players.
You hardly hear record noise on a high end rig. Recently, I bought a used record that had wear; the noise would have been too much on my old record player; as a matter of fact, I was always replacing records, not realizing the record player was the problem.
When these new people by cheap record players, that sound good with new records, but when the record gets the least bit of wear, you can hear the noise, and they don’t understand that a more expensive set up is required (much more expensive) to reduce the noise to music ratio. And what makes that even worse, when they complain, others that know what the problem is, respond with bewilderment.
Good analog is expensive, and there is no way to get around it.
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That’s not exactly correct. The article on Rudy Van Gelder included the observation that when he moved from Hackensack NJ to the new location in 1959 the sound quality improved because the space was a larger “professional” space. The alleged problems with RVG recordings prior to 1959 was apparently due to the relatively poor hand built space in his parents home. Of the early Savoy recordings pre 1959 on the Japanese Savoy Jazz label I’ve listened to the non-RVG CDs sound more musical and engaging than the RVG, but I’m just getting started listening to a bunch of the Savoy Jazz CDs which included recordings from 1940s and 50s many by RVG in Hackensack NJ. I have not listened to any post 1959 RVG CDs.
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frogmanI have those direct to disc recordings. You mentioned by Rob McConnell. I need to dig them out and give them a listen.
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frogmanConcerning the article you posted on Rudy van gelder's engineering output. Correct me if I'm wrong. Because I didn't read the entire article But it seemed that the author was saying big name Studios had better equipment and more advantageous Studio space and so were able to create better sounding recordings than Van Gelder.Honestly I consider that premise a crock of bull. It doesn't add up for me. There's a lot more that goes into engineering ( microphone choices, placement of microphones, etc.) than just having the best equipment. And Studio space.
For example a small company such as contemporary Made some of the best recordings of the 50s( examples Rollins Way Out West, Shelly Mannes trios , Art Pepper) due to excellent engineering by none other than the legendary Roy DuNann.I have been collecting. Vinyl and CDs for four decades and many of them. Engineered buy Van Gelder with excellent sound. For that author to dismiss Rudy's contribution as volume only And give him no credit for sound quality is ridiculous.
Just my 2 cents
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I should have written, “was” a great big band leader....
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While I normally prefer to post music intended for “community” consumption, I will make an exception for a worthy cause. Today is Rob McConnell’s birthday. One of Canada’s greatest Jazz personalities, he is a great big band leader and arranger who leads one of the most swinging big bands around and plays the seldom heard valve (as opposed to slide) trombone. For those with audiophile sensibilities, if you can find any of his early direct to disc recordings on the Unbrella label, snatch it up; fabulous sound. For Schubert and his love of Canada: https://youtu.be/hfI3CIjV3aghttps://youtu.be/1qvy33tYHAE |
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I wouldn’t call it disadvantage fro. Besides blushing is good for health. :--) ;--) |
Welcome back, mary_jo. You made me blush with your El Chombo clip. That’s the disadvantage (?) of actually understanding the meaning of the lyric (singular). Stick around. |
I was wondering the same thing Mary_jo, maybe your concern will bring him back.
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Everyone is so glad to have you back Mary_jo, you're making our Valentine Day complete.
I liked Anita and Frank Sinatra best. To be honest, my thoughts and emotions on Grant Green are too personal, plus they would take up a whole page.
I listened to everyone's cuts since from yesterday, and each one of them was very good; they took me to different places in time that involved good memories.
Happy Valentine's Day!
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Just browsing through the thread. Not that it is my business but what did you do to schubert? Ate him?
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El Chombo made me crack a smile ...that was the point. By the way, that clip from Helen Merrill was very nice, thank you. |
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Hard to decide which song is "better"...
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Warning, woman on the thread. Hide all your cigarettes and adult magazines...or maybe not. Just dropping by to say warm hello... They asked once an old man, an atheist, why he celebrated Christmas if he wasn’t believer. The old man said: Are you crazy? You’re saying I should miss the chance to have a party? Same here... Happy Valentine’s day guys. This party is not be missed. Hashtag roses and hearts. :--)) What else? Chet of course... https://youtu.be/UOEIQKczRPYI have changed my hair for you, just to let you know. Almost forgot. If there is among you anyone who does not appreciate Chet singing, calm down, I have prepared the alternative for today’s celebration day: https://youtu.be/FzG4uDgje3M1.9B views, just noticing... |
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