Jazz for aficionados

Well Said.

Cheers

Rok,  you really should quit while you're only this far behind 🙁.  You're just grabbing at straws now and using the usual convoluted logic.  Please stop digging your hole deeper.  What is the point of comparing a performance by children with all the charm of such with a lame performance by adults FOR children?  That the music is written for children does not preclude artistic excellence; nor should it.  Have you heard Britten's "The Young Person's Guide The Orchestra"?  There are many works along those lines and recordings by the greatest orchestras on the planet as well as smaller projects.  I have been involved in more Children's Concerts than I can remember and regardless of the simplicity of the music the most effective and educational (for the children) are those performed with artistic integrity; this, as demostrated by the kids' reactions and follow up.  Re your tasteless comment:

Your explanation might have been believable (somewhat) had you not followed it up with:

**** This ruckus has already revived one unpleasant, moronic corpse from the past. ****

O-10, I understand how deeply you feel about and from this music; very admirable and kudos to you. I will say this again, as before, in the hope that this might spark some curiosity in you to dig a little deeper about all this. You are simply mistaken with some of these assertions and I would strongly encourage you to read more on the subject and develop a more sound basis for so much confidence on these topics. My motivation in pointing these things out is simply the belief, based on a lot of experience on the subject and the corroboration of many, that this will heighten your appreciation of the music. Perhaps the comfort of believing that you know all there is to know is the most important thing for you; I would hope not.

Frogman, this music is akin to resonant frequencies; the music is broadcast on a specific frequency, while the receiver is tuned to the same frequency. If you are not properly tuned, you can not properly hear the music. Staying on the same wavelength as this music, is my life's pleasure.

Acman3, thanks for that Averhoff clip; had not heard that before.  Carlos Averhoff was the tenor player in Irakere and if you listened to the clips of that band that Rok posted he is the person announcing the band and musicians (he was the only English speaking member of the band).  Smoking performance.  Gonzalo Rubalcaba sounds amazing.  What I particularly like about that clip is that, while it sounds similar to some of Irakere's stuff, it has the intensity but not as much nervous energy as a lot of Irakere.  I found a little info about this recording and it appears this was Rubalcaba's rhythm section and Irakere's (post Paquito and Sandoval) horn section.  Would love to hear more from this album which appears to be Averhoff's project.  Great stuff, thanks.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYqHFs1N5lk

Beautiful clip all the way around.  What a player he was!  Tasty and classy story telling.  One of the best things I've seen on the Tube.

https://youtu.be/D457b9QZ0RY

Frogman...just dropped by. Haven’t read any of the preceding but did listen to the first couple tracks of that Wes Montgomery "Twisted Blues" clip you linked. Very nice. Might have to look for that as a recording.  THANKS

BTW (for Rok’s sartorial edification) as far as I’m concerned, Wes’ fashion look (white tab collar dress shirt with skinny black tie) NEVER went out of style. 50 years later, he is still a sharp-dressed man.

There is a direct correlation between how they dress and how / what they play.   Exhibit #1   Miles Davis.

Cheers

Well now Frogman, we have never had so many posters at one time, and although an "off topic" subject has been discussed, a lot of good music has been posted also.

We even got Schubert out of hibernation; who should know by now that people who live in glass houses don't throw rocks, especially in this direction.

I think this proves we can chew gum and walk at the same time, but I'm not rejecting your thing about staying on topic; however, what was discussed very much related to the topic.


Enjoy the music.

Speaking of dress, sometime ago when I took the family to "Red Lobster", I dressed in business fashion, sport coat and tie; which was the way everyone else was dressed.

When I wasn't looking, someone changed the dress code, and all these sloppy looking people started coming in; that's when the food no longer tasted as good, (probably the same identical food), but I quit "Red Lobster".

Today's Revelation:

Jon Hendricks and the All-Stars -- BOPPIN' AT THE BLUE NOTE
One of the great examples of Jazz Album art.

Check Wynton on vocals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL_zapo9cIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Mx2Qbr0WE

Cheers

There is no such thing as too much of a good thing.

Jon Hendricks and Friends -- FREDDIE FREELOADER
The 'friends' include:
Benson, McFerrin, Basie Orchestra, Wynton, Turrentine, Flanagan, Al Grey and The Manhattan Transfer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E71F8CcVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sDtgFTTblc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA10wT2Gtl8

Cheers

These guys forgot their Ball Caps and Tank Tops, but they managed to put on a fairly decent performance.   Shows it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgow060zOg

Cheers

Btw, this is called Jazz.

O-10 - I left the Circus and live in a small city in SE France near Spain.
No TV or Internet save when I am back in Twin Cities for funeral etc or Socialist Medicine at VA Hospital.
FYI, Red Lobster sucks because the oceans are fished out .

Very nice young player with a gentle modern tone and very interesting composition style.  Swinging player with a style informed by his island heritage.  Really like this guy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ7ERshGaH0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHrcMCnjVKk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AQxcG9d8DoY

You tricked me Schubert, the SE France is near Italy, and you were probably never in the circus; wasn't Circus Du Soleil, was it?

Your'e in the Circus as a clown not that you realize same .
 God Bless You all the same !

Schubert, Are you going to be around for awhile, or just until they discover that you're missing?

If this don't make you think you're in Africa, nothing will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d7gfTmbhUY&list=RD-d7gfTmbhUY#t=202

Who says opera diva can't swing.   Sort of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOZ0mOoXD-c

Cheers

Yikes!  You're being kind.  Sort of off.

Miguel Zenon is from Puerto Rico, and I like his style; yes, his heritage is part of that. Although he has played with some of my favorite musicians, I'm unfamiliar with him.

He has quite a bit of formal education in music, as many current musicians are fortunate to have on their resume. As has been implied, I do not subscribe to formal education being unnecessary, but merely point out the fact that I know musicians who did not get it. For the record, not having formal education in music is a distinct disadvantage; another to go along with all the other disadvantages some musicians in the past had.

I will look forward to acquiring and listening to "Miguel Zenon" in the future.


Enjoy the music.

Today's Listen:

Art Farmer -- SOMETHING TO LIVE FOR:
The Music of Billy Strayhorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJykMRbFPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iac2f1bGxbI 

Cheers

Rok, somebody been playing games with your geography book; aside from that, I liked the unusual combination; kind of like okra with champagne.

***** somebody been playing games with your geography book*****

O-10, I know my geography, I'm just trying to stay on the good side of The Frogman. :)

Cheers

Rok, if you want to stay on the good side of the Frogman, you got to get into astrology, because it changes; I don't know whether it's on phases of the moon, or when Jupiter is in the seventh house; no, that's not it, the moon in the seventh house!

What I'm trying to say, is when a guys good side keeps moving around, it ain't easy finding the good side.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE

I think his moon went into the outhouse instead of the seventh house.

That would explain a lot. :)

Cheers

Pure class.  I have no doubt you know all about that subject.  If it weren't all so pathetic I might thank you guys for making it so easy.

One thing is for certain, whether it's old jazz, or old Cuban, it's old school for me. Maybe old Cuban music will get on the good side of Frogman.

Gonzalo Rubalcaba, is he old school or new school? Did we ever close the case on Africa? I am going to have to start keeping a notebook.


Here's the real deal from Cuba; frogman has the floor, who did what, did somebody teach the Cubans how to play? This music is just too good.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYBCVZk_idM&t=213s


Which reminds me of this documentary I was looking at on South Africa; they discovered some artwork, they said had to have come from another planet because native South Africans were not capable. I say the old Europeans hit up on time and space  travel, and did it before the New Europeans discovered South Africa.

Rok, Frogman has the floor, and we are going to listen and learn.

Sun Cubano:

Love it.   Very nice post.   I can hear Spain, Africa and Cuba.   Spain because of the singing style.   Africa because of the percussion, and Cuba because we won't hear anything like this that is native to Spain or Africa, so it's gotta be of Cuban origin.

When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA.  Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.

Cheers

When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA. Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.

Rok, this is what I heard as a child, nothing has changed. Most Blacks are from the South and I don't mean South Africa.

This Cuban music contains the best elements of Africa and Spain; presently, I don't like either one of them undiluted; but they came up with the right combination here. You won't find music this good in Spain or Africa.

I remember when they told me that stuff Ricky Ricardo on the Lucy show was playing was Cuban music. Why did they have to throw "Hollywood" in everybody's music?

One of my favorite old movies is "The Casbah". Katherine Dunham has the part of "Odette" in this movie, and they paid her for this dance thing, which is funny, because I've seen her dance troupe, and I know she didn't tell them to do anything like that.

What's funny Rok, is that although they paid her, they never used her choreography; in the end, they always used whatever funny steps hollywood prescribed. Back then, as long as they got paid, who cared.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LASYzcH67F0


This stuff is really funny when we can use our PC to go back in time.


Enjoy the music.

Let me conclude our current debate before we move on. That debate concerned "modern jazz" as has been defined as jazz that originated with "bebop" and for our purposes ended in the 70's.

The debate was over whether or not African music had anything to do with the origination of this music, and the conclusion was no it didn't according to the majority of "Aficionados"

Now we are into Cuban music, "Son cubano is a genre of music and dance that originated in the highlands of eastern Cuba during the late 19th century. It is a syncretic genre that amalgamates elements of Spanish and African origin. This is the official definition, and also describes the sound of this music.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ4hF8EBZg&list=RDZpJ4hF8EBZg#t=16


This album is an introduction to "Son Cubano"; I hope we can all stay on the same page for awhile. The last time I was able to make a considerable high quality increase in my collection was when we stayed on the same page, and investigated a single musician. I am positive that we have not been exposed to nearly enough of this music, and can make many positive discoveries if we stay into it long enough.

Acman, you seem to have ears for the best in a new genre of music; therefore, I have confidence that you will choose music which I will add to my collection.



Enjoy the music.

Today's Exploration:

THE ORIGINAL MAMBO KINGS: AN INTRODUCTION TO AFRO-CUBOP

Machito Orch with Mario Bauza, Machito Orch with Flip Phillips,  
Machito Orch with Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and his Orchestra and Andre's All Stars(Bebo Valdes).

Did this mesh of Cuban and Bebop work?   At least as Parker and Dizzy played bebop.   Does 'Cubop' still exist?

Of all the heavyweights involved I liked The Andre All Stars best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_ff9Y9aWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJI-ZTVpRcI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H3fuAiOYXc

Cheers

For the record, it is not true, and a distortion of what the "debate" was about that "a majority of Aficionados concluded that African music had nothing to do with the origination of" bebop.  Lets look at the facts:  three regular contributors and one new commented at all on the topic.  Of the regulars one said NO, one said MAYBE A LITTLE, and one said YES.  The new poster suggested that the answer was YES.  We don't know how the others who did comment feel about this.  Why is this important?  Because it is important to have clarity about what goes on here; but, most importantly, and regardless of what some may think, this notion goes completely counter to everything authoritative that has been written or said on the subject.  Now, back to the regular programming of fake musicology.  

***** this notion goes completely counter to everything authoritative that has been written or said on the subject.*****

Ridiculous statement.   Stop and think for a moment, of all the 'authoritative' things that have been written throughout history. Sometimes 'Authoritative' documents can land people into everything from the back of the bus to gas chambers and ovens.

So, no more about 'Authoritative' statements written by the 'authorities'.

Cheers

Besides, who should we believe, the 'authorities', or our lying ears.

Cheers

"Bebop" was called everything except a child of God and music; I don't think there were any authoritarians who even considered where "Bebop" came from.

Now if "Bird", Monk, or "Diz" told me they consulted Chief Bey, and got his final stamp of approval on "Bebop", before they could really swing with it, then I would become a believer.

Chief Bey put rebop in the bebop, and got religion along the way, can you dig it?


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DHzFOim3Uc&list=PLiGJl0CoGRhttCozknuOVHaCXcUQRY26A

Frogman, I have noticed that every time you have the choice of leading a new segment of jazz, or diving into a "Bruha", you choose going back into the "Bruha" and then blaming me or Rok, for not being able to entangle yourself. No one knows more about Cuban music than you, but yet you choose to point out where "Bebop" was originated in Africa; why do you do that?

There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about what I have said on the subject.  You disagree, fine; but, as concerns this, you are living in a reality of your own making that has no backing nor credence.  That you guys can't hear the musical connections nor make the associations to the various ethnic influences in jazz that are there to be heard does not validate an alternate reality.  

O-10, I am afraid your thought process at times like this is no more clear and accurate than your grammar.  I would love nothing more than to not get entangled in these stupid arguments.  But, in my book this topic matters.  It is so basic and important to the general topic of this thread that gross misstatements and made up sh*t need to be called out.  Moreover, if you can't understand why I would not want to take you up on your "offer" to lead the discussion about Cuban music after the series of taunting and provocative comments by you and your (for today) cohort, then I'm afraid you are in the dark about more than just music and its history.  Go back over those posts; if you care.  This will be the last thing I say on the subject (for now); perhaps some of it will sink in.  Pay close attention, now:

**** you choose to point out where Bebop originated in Africa ****

That you would make such a statement points to the absence of any kind of grounding on the subject.  No one has said that Bebop "originated" in Africa. The distinction between "originate" and "influence" is key.  African music was one of the major influences in the creation of jazz.  Bebop is jazz.  Without the jazz (and blues) styles that preceded Bebop there would be no Bebop.  Hence, Bebop was influenced by African music.  What is so difficult to understand about this? 

Btw, the suggestion that "modern jazz" ended in the 70's is equally non-sensical.  So, then, are you saying that there has been no jazz created since the 70's?  If you are not saying that, then what does one call jazz produced from the 70's to the present day, if not "modern"? 

Frogman, I'm capable of communicating with people from various sociological and economic groupings, and quite often express the mood I'm in at the time. Sometime I'm in a hip mood and choose to express myself in a "jazzy" manner.

At other times I'm in a "Southern mood" and attempt to use "good old boy" dialect to communicate ideas unique to the South.

But by now I know it is foolish to communicate to you anything other than that which you wish to be communicated.

Since it's been a long time since I've been to school, please point out any grammatical errors you have found.

Frogman, your objective is not to communicate an idea, but to change the subject and win the argument; that's been pointed out many times. At other times you choose to impress with your long diatribes.

Apparently you and I listen to different Bebop, because what I listen to was not influenced by anything in Africa, and even the influence you're talking about is so minor, you're the only person who can hear it, but the bottom line is the fact that it's so inconsequential.

Modern jazz ended in the 70's, serves to identify what we have been calling "classic jazz", or "jazz jazz". Aficionados can choose to identify and define things within their group that would not fit the universal definition, and that is what we have done, but since you know this, why do you claim otherwise?

The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it sounds, "Bebop influenced by Africa", you must be speaking of "Afrobop"; you win, can we go on to the next thing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPnZpAftn8s&list=PL1pMraufpPkEtCXWEyHybh42a2PnM6HRp

If that wasn't good enough we got this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4x4kl8BdIM

O-10:

The fight has been fought and won.   Back to The jazz.

Cheers

Now back to the Jazz! Bird's the word when we talk about Bebop, and everybody knows that, he is the undisputed King. We are not talking about just a lot of notes played at lightening speed, but music you both hear and feel.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNtmkfeJk4


This is first of all MUSIC, and second it is Bebop, but first it's music you can listen to and enjoy.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg


You got it my friend, this is Bebop in between the beautiful music; nobody, but nobody else could do this.

When I first heard "Just Friends", I thought I had discovered something new, that was probably in 59 or 60; when this was done in 49. It still sounds new and fresh to me, as does the whole album "Charlie Parker with Strings".

Thank God I don't hear Africa nowhere in Bird's music.

Rather than for me to take up all the space with my favorite cuts, I prefer you bounce between the album with strings, and "Bird's Best Bop" to find your favorites.

Just one more;
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bWqViY5F4




Enjoy this music.

Bird:
Love these clips, but I don't think the strings added anything.  I guess the 'Authorities' wanted to make Bird mo'better.

Never knew there was a video of this.   Music of Thomas 'Fats' Waller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE8_MxJCsqg

Fabulous music.

Cheers

I suppose I should be glad that you guys finally had the good sense to concede 😔; but, as always, it's too bad that you perceive the opportunity to learn something new as a "fight" or "argument".  

Who was it that often said, "Lord, lord, my burden is great"? ☺️

Well, "Lord, lord, my burden is great"; more fake musicology.  While it is true that Bird was a leading exponent of bebop and probably the greatest, he was far from "the only one who could do it" and not the first to move in that direction musically.  In fact, he was not the first to lead a bebop recording session; Coleman Hawkins was.  In fact, in was Hawkins' 1939 recording of "Body And Soul" that "cracked the door" into the bebop "room".

In the early 40's  bebop was taking shape and being molded by the musical experimentations and contributions of several players who were coming out of the swing tradition and who sought to move the music forward with a much more sophisticated harmonic palette and emphasis on improvisation with great technical virtuosity.   Bird certainly distinguished himself as probably the greatest exponent of the style, but to suggest that he was a lone voice is not true at all.  An interesting footnote about this period in jazz, and one very unfortunate and ironic one at that, is that due to a two year long (1942-44?) musicians' union strike during which all recording was prohibited, there are no (formal) documents of the most important years in the music's development.  This is one of the reasons that so many of Bird's recordings have poor sound quality; they were bootleg recordings.  These particulars may not matter to some who want to keep their personal heroes on a unrealistic pedestal, but they truly are important to understanding and having an honest grasp of the evolution of this great music.  I am not a huge fan of Wiki as a source of definitive information, but this is one of the best Wiki entries that I've read and is recommended for anyone who wants a more comprehensive look at what was going on at the time of bebop' birth:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebop

Btw, "Bird With Strings" (great record and thanks for the clip, O-10) was born out of Bird's deep interest in Classical music; Igor Stravinsky and Bartok in particular.  He really wanted to record with a string section and blend elements of Jazz and of Classical.

O-10, the following is not intended to provoke nor prolong any "argument", but to try to clarify (again) and hopefully pave the way to better and less contentious interaction on this thread.  Contrary to your assertions, your comments about my motivations are off the mark.  Let me put it this way and hopefully this will clarify where I'm coming from:  I have no interest in "impressing" anyone nor win arguments.  How can I say this?  Because nothing I write or have written is anything new, revelatory, nor particularly interesting to anyone who has a truly indepth knowledge of this stuff.  It is all out there to read and learn for anyone who has the interest and curiosity to do so.  As I have said before, try speaking to someone like Billy Taylor or Wynton about this stuff; their level of knowledge and perspective is awe inspiring.  Food for thought....hopefully.

When it comes to Cuban music, I can not say enough good things about this CD, "Afro-Cuban All-Stars" it covers "Son" which is Afro Cuban music combined in perfect proportion like a perfect cooking recipe.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KODWcrncnUU

Although we went here once, I would like to go again; I'm sure you will find it very rewarding.

Enjoying exquisite music is like enjoying a perfect recipe. I was in Atlanta for a time and discovered a place where they had perfect "bouillabaisse"; every time I went there, having the same dish was an experience, and I had it every day, savoring each spoonful. Nowhere since, have I been able to repeat that experience.

I compare listening to "Son" equivalent to that experience; take your time and let each beat soak in; this music is so perfect; while it says Afro-Cuban, the two are combined to become one, which means you would have to mash the two words together in order to describe it.

This music inspires thoughts of Caribbean fantasy's; one of them I actually lived, but living fantasy's can shorten your life span, they are best left in the realm of fantasies.


Enjoy the music.