Live vs Studio:
If you are after the 'experience' of a musical event, live is not only better, it's required, regardless of the mistakes by the band or the inferior acoustics of the venue. You are there for the entire package. I was there! I saw Miles "live"! And the women.
If you are after hearing the music, hearing all the players, hearing what Miles had to say, the nuances, and you have been married for ages, then, being in your sweet spot, in front of your rig, with a cold one, is best.
Cheers
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I like this song so will post it again, this time with The Shirelles. https://youtu.be/cnPlJxet_acWhere are songs like this today? Tell me, where? Nowhere... |
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Cassandra’s voice. I like it. She has been described by critic Gary Giddins as "a singer blessed with an unmistakable timbre and attack [who has] expanded the playing field" by incorporating blues, country, and folk music into her work. ~ source, Wiki |
It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Definitely. |
O-10, still not playing, but since it is the decent to do I will try and answer your question. For the record, the reason that I said “I am not playing” is that you questioned my motivation for making the comment about live/studio and, as in the past, that signaled to me that yet another silly argument was around the corner. Not a very nice thing to do and I hope my concern is unfounded. I will answer your question, but if there cannot be civility and respect, this will be my last comment on the matter. If there is, I would be glad to expound and answer any additional questions. So, why did I make the comment about “studio/live”?
Simple, because it is absolutely true. It is absolutely true that a live performance is not always better than a studio performance; especially when we are talking about a singer that we both agree does not have a stellar instrument. A singer without a great instrument is much more prone to have vocal problems. In a studio, a singer (or instrumentalist) can do multiple takes of a performance and choose the best one for the record. In a live setting, as I tell my wife all the time, “you can’t go back and White (it) Out” (a mistake or flaw). Additionally, you would be amazed at what a tiny bit of added reverb in the studio mix can do to enhance the sound of a singer’s voice, or even mask intonation problems. Those are facts.
Now, it is also true that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (singer’s voice being in equally good shape, band being equally up to snuff, etc.) the live performance is usually better. It is also true that for a given listener a live performance may always be “better” due to being present to witness a favorite artist perform, the charm of being in a club with like minded fans, etc. Those things don’t have anything to do with the quality of the performance in objective terms. I suppose that it is also possible that you have been very lucky and have never attended an inferior live performance. Good for you. I have been to many live performances that were not as good as some of the recorded work of the same material by the same artist.
Another interesting thing to consider is that many artists (or bands) make a point of not recording new repertoire before they “take it on the road”; IOW, preform it live (essentially, rehearse it in front of an audience) before putting it down on tape. This is the opposite of what was done with the Blakey “Coolin’ It” material and why the release was held back (not “lost“, to be “discovered” later) and why, in this case, the live versions of the same material sound better than the studio versions. For the studio versions (“Coolin’ It”) the band had not seen the material before. When they recorded the material weeks later they had had a chance to play it several times before committing it to tape.
Anyway, I would prefer to focus on the fact that we agree on Abbey Lincoln as an artist. |
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I bet you can't tell Casandra was influenced by Abbey Lincoln.
I wouldn't doubt it. Cassandra has the better voice, in fact she has a great voice. No doubt honed in the Baptist church. They were both Divas, if memory serves, and then they discovered suffering and injustice in the world, and they changed tracks. Can't see either of them in front of the Basie Band. But both can be compelling. Cheers |
Rok, I bet you can't tell Casandra was influenced by Abbey Lincoln.
I have that same CD.
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Isn’t that something we should do regardless of anything? Do the best of what we can, even though things do not meet our wishes each time or shall I say, most of the time. Should we aim to learn to ask for less or is it just as it should be, never knew that answer.
But you know what, I do believe in broken illusions. Broken Dream sounds too heavy to bear, it is almost as serious as Broken Heart. Broken illusion is something easier to handle with. You break what is breakable anyway.
Thank you for beautiful song, O-10.
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Mary_jo, plague or no plague, I was living in the past before it struck. Covid 19 is just an addition to all the present jive BS. I was just thinking about you, and like magic here you are in the beautiful living flesh. I'm going to write something especially for you; I don't mean that it pertains to you or that it is about you, but here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgBgaR01Mk&list=RDmpgBgaR01Mk&start_radio=1This is one of the saddest songs ever written, that's because gigolo and gigolette are thinking of the lost love of their lives while they are dancing down the Boulevard of Broken Dreams; they kiss without regret because even then they're thinking of someone else. The more intense they attempt to make their affair, the more they think of that someone in the past, but when you're dancing down "The Boulevard of Broken Dreams" you gotta do the best you can. |
These are the modern times. We can’t live without modern technologies but we are surely paying the price of using it. The picture of a group of a friends in a cafe bar, sitting at the same table, not talking to each other but using their smart phones instead, is a picture everyone’s familiar with. C-19 made it worst. Now the friends are doing the same, just this time their mouth and half of their faces are covered with mask. One can give a smile to another, with eyes only. Funny, I thought modern times will make us, due to fact that we know more and that we are able to reach for more, more liberated, more free of the chains, but instead we are being trapped in every possible way. Economically, politically, socially and personally. I vote for old times, old music, if music is able to grow old at all. I find more happiness in all shapes of life, in older times. Some of you might say that I talk like that because I was younger back then and that kids even today or many years ago, feel the same, joy and play, regardless of the time they are facing but I would disagree. You can agree to disagree but I do not care or I might disagree with you to agree to disagree. Yesterday I watched movie "Hector and the Search for Happiness" and the movie was often very funny. Pity the end had happy end, what over-sweetened the movie but till that point it was quite laughable and watchable piece. From the movie: "Lesson no. 20: Happiness is a certain way of seeing things." This could be the right conclusion for the above mentioned words. Enjoy your day and... let the good times roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYB5vLzEHvI and roll... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9RM6kARNh8 He says: "Put on a happy face." I guess everybody has its way. But these guys did not count on masks for sure... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6yvp6f-Dr4 |
Except for the studio/live part. The studio always benefits those with lesser vocal instruments; hence the expression “We can fix it in the mix”.
Frogman, those were your words; explain to me what I misinterpreted?
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Not playing, O-10. Read what I said again and don’t read into it. Easy. |
Some might say it’s very “New Yorkish” 🤔. IOW, hip as hell.
Thus spoke a New Yorker. Cheers |
Frogman, I'm two days older than black pepper, I've been around. I've heard a lot of records, and seen a lot of live performances, but not once have I heard a record that compared to a live performance; I'm sure Alex's live experience when he saw Abbey was better than anything on record; it can't be fixed that much.
What provoked you to say that?
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Abbey Lincoln. Great record. Getz sounds fabulous; beautiful story telling. “Bird Alone” is a gem. I posted this record a couple of times previously and glad to hear it again. A little factoid: Max Roach and Abbey are husband and wife. This followed one of the tracks on the Tube. Some might say it’s very “New Yorkish” 🤔. IOW, hip as hell. Herbie is a genius. https://youtu.be/e5cgqWnjqfEhttps://youtu.be/a3CZHr5uiNM |
**** I though this was the new Art Blakey album ****
It is, pjw.
Don’t be a stranger. |
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Worth getting if only for the players on it (Morgan). Some pretty good reaction, but I’m not aware of “everyone going gaga over it” at all. For whatever it may be worth to anyone, my post on a recent and different thread about this release: Always a treat to find new material by a great artist. However, there’s usually a reason that release of a recording is held back. I know it’s in vogue to slam critics, but I think Fremer’s review nails it. It’s hard to find an Art Blakey recordings that is not at least enjoyable to listen to, but compared to the classics this one, while still enjoyable, doesn’t rise to the same level of band cohesion and level of swing. The material was unfamiliar to the players and it sounds like it. As Fremer points out, four of the tunes were recorded live just a few weeks later for the “At The Jazz Corner Of The World” release and the band (same lineup) sounds more energetic and precise. On the title tune of the earlier studio version we hear a rarity, Morgan ‘fracks” (misses) a note early on in the reading of the “head”; a common result of unfamiliarity with the material. https://youtu.be/RQcfoXbGtq8A few weeks later: https://youtu.be/S5GONJ_ozTc |
OP, I just realized the Blakey you posted is from the newly discovered CD everyone is going ga-ga over. I will have to get it. Hey, Lee Morgan.
Cheers |
Actually, he did worse (better?) than that. He referred to bebop as “Chinese music”. Talk about politically incorrect. I know exactly what he meant.
Good catch on the tempo relaxing toward the end. 2:00 AM, last take of the night, rough night the day before, way too much sugar in way too much coffee (or who knows what), Chan was pissed off that day; even those guys got tired sometimes 😊
Actually it was the drummer’s fault. Again. It’s always the drummer (not!). Those damn drummers.
” Two musicians and a drummer walk into a bar......” |
Body and Soul:
The Lester Young performance seemed to be more for dancing. If fact, you can imagined a dance floor while listening to it. This is what I call Swing. The transition from Sax to piano and back again was smooth and the tempo was maintained. Great playing. Another hipster from Mississippi.
Bird was faster, and he played the entire tune. The tempo did changed during the performance. Not as dance friendly as Prez. More like, listen to Bird express himself.
My take away. Bebop is for listening. Swing is for dancing.
Ad Lib Blues / Cool Blues:
Both great playing. I have the Prez CD. Again, the Lester tune is for dancing, the Bird tune for Listening to Bird.
I think it was during this period in Jazz, that Pops felt it necessary to declare, "if you can't dance to it, it ain't Jazz" A not too subtle swipe at Be-Bop.
Cheers
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Pretty good piano player. Needs a better drummer; way too heavy handed and plodding for the way she’s playing the tune. Almost ruins it for her. The bass player keeps pretty good time, but the soloing is a good example of why some people hate bass solos. She should move to NYC 😊 |
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Won’t wonders ever cease?! O-10, I agree with you word for word on Abbey Lincoln. Except for the studio/live part. The studio always benefits those with lesser vocal instruments; hence the expression “We can fix it in the mix”. |
Rok, Abbey is slightly off center; she has more style than voice and you have to be attuned to what she's singing.
A live performance is a lot different than a record; it's possible that Rok would have agreed with you Alex. But even when she doesn't have the voice of some of the other Diva's, I like her style.
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Some political views; thank you 🙄 Speaking of nuance, remember it is not just between Rok and I; it is between the whole of the Jazz community and Rok (and O-10, sometimes, mostly, when he needs Rok’s approval 😊). He, of course, knows better than anyone what the true motivations for the expressed opinions of Jazz greats and musicologists are; not to mention what the nuances of the inner workings of music industry politics are. One becomes an expert on those things in HS band ☺️ Btw, I love Abbey Lincoln. A unique voice who wrote some very interesting songs; many with social consciousness themes. https://youtu.be/YTeacoeAm9oBtw, I do have to be careful. More importantly, I welcome and am still waiting for intelligent reactions and comments about my earlier examples to O-10 on Swing/Bop. Please make it more than “you’re wrong”. Why is always nice. Stretch out, you can do it. I promise it won’t hurt.....probably. |
Like you said Rok, so much depends on WHEN in the discussion of jazz. I recall when I was taking the last train from St. Louis to Lackland AFB San Antonio Texas, and it was about the same time Moody came out with "Last Train From Overbrook". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2j3ImSF7m4&list=RDJ2j3ImSF7m4&start_radio=1This is beautiful music that projects the feeling of actually being on a train; I could hear this music playing in my head on the train ride all the way into San Antonio. |
had an opportunity to see her performing, in 98. or 99.. She sure sounded right to me. Thanks for the answer, by the way.
I am glad that you too at least share similar political views
I will listen to another Abbey CD this evening. If all is OK, I will post her tomorrow. I would be afraid to live in NYC with my political views. So, if The Frogman shares them, he'd better be careful. Cheers |
Rok, had an opportunity to see her performing, in 98. or 99.. She sure sounded right to me.
Thanks for the answer, by the way.
I am not sure that I can follow the nuances between you and Frogman, but maybe thats even better.
If I can make a joke, still, I am glad that you too at least share similar political views.
Only Love.... |
OP, I need your opinion on Abbey Lincoln. As you have noticed, I am on a Diva binge, but she just does not sound 'right' to me. Is it just me?
Cheers |
Oh, I know exactly where he’s coming from. I wish I didn’t; I hate to witness willful ignorance. |
I understand where you're coming from even when the Frogman doesn't.
Ah, but The Frogman does understand. He is just selective in acknowledging his understanding. Cheers |
Rok, I understand where you're coming from even when the Frogman doesn't.
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**** Black folks, the Most American of all people in this country.****
And there you have it. Explains everything.
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Loved Blakey and his Messengers. Even the label was right. Being a Hipster from Mississippi, I think I got it. :) Sad in the sense that we have lost some great ones.
Cheers |
This is jazz "in crowd" music for those who understand the language that is spoken by the masters of the language called jazz; specifically "Hard Bop". The title of this tune is "Hipsippy Blues"; those in the know understand the word game being played with the title; that says it all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3S0VYKg1JY |
Let’s not forget "WHEN." We all get wrapped up with the why, where, how, who, But in history, the ’WHEN’ is the most important consideration.
Cheers |
Re Wynton and the supposed “Americanization” of Jazz. First, Jazz needs no “Americanization”.
I think I said Jazz was created by Black folks, the Most American of all people in this country. What's this "Americanization". Why would something created by Americans need to be "Americanized"?
The melting pot concept goes to the very core of what America is about.
The so-called melting pot was the melting of the various European Nationalities. Did not apply to Racial minorities. Had nothing to do with Black Folks.
His message is, in fact, about acknowledging the greatness of the Afro-American contribution to the music;
This is like "acknowledging" Beethoven's "contribution" to his Ninth Symphony. DUH???? Their contribution is, they created the music. Cheers |
Rok, you explained things better than I could have ever thought to explain them. Like you said, "You have to be born here to know the games that people play."
Now that you've explained everything, we can go on to the next thing.
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Re Wynton and the supposed “Americanization” of Jazz. First, Jazz needs no “Americanization”. The melting pot concept goes to the very core of what America is about. No surprise, but that is the precise opposite of what his message is. He has far more integrity than some here are giving him. His message is, in fact, about acknowledging the greatness of the Afro-American contribution to the music; not to dilute it. Besides, as I said before, his ideas are nothing new. Musicians and musicologists have been pointing these things out for decades. Of course, there is always the proof of demonstrable examples of what has been talked about for anyone who is willing to see it and not let their cynicism and ego cloud their vision (ears).
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**** Can any one tell me how swing sounds like "Bop"? **** Sure. However, I think a better question is “how does Bop sound like Swing?”. A subtle, but important distinction. With respect, those are not particularly good examples to make the point. Prez playing a slow ballad and Bird playing a very fast tune clouds the issue. Perhaps they serve to skew the argument one way and not the other, but there are more “neutral” examples. Here is Prez and Bird both playing “Body and Soul” https://youtu.be/tBfqqbm50uwhttps://youtu.be/prbqc3C6968Here is an even better comparison to your question. Prez and then Bird playing an up tempo Blues: https://youtu.be/jeHkeoYNGgIhttps://youtu.be/5pVxWdnInWYHow do they sound alike? Let’s put aside the obvious. Same instrumentation; although Prez is on tenor and Bird is on alto. Now, the less obvious: Both tunes use the exact same “form”, the 12 measure Blues form. Prez plays it in a Swing style and Bird in a Bebop style. The even less obvious: In keeping with the classic differences between the two styles, and following all that we know (should know) about the general trends (evolution) in Jazz, Bird’s improvisation is more adventurous in that he plays faster and much more “outside” the very simple harmony of the Blues form while Prez is a lot more conservative staying closer to home. Bird uses more and faster ornamentation and deviates much more from the melody of the tune. He also plays with a more aggressive tone. All hallmarks of Bebop. Many would say they are also hallmarks of the way society in general was moving: emphasis on faster and deviation from norms; but still within the same framework (form). To illustrate the evolution from one style to the next even more let’s go backwards in time. Here is Louis Armstrong playing a Blues form; exact same 12 measure Blues form. He plays more simply and “inside” than even Prez. Also notice how from Louis to Prez to Bird there was a lineage in their respective swing feels; from a more square “swingy” feel to Bird’s more fluid swing. Here’s a fascinating recording. “Cherokee” with Bird on tenor (!). Who does he sound a lot like? You guessed it, Prez. https://youtu.be/60z6fRjjYPoIt’s all a continuum of influences from the past and, in the case of the greats, their own creativity moving the music to a new place. It is still going on today. We of an older generation, or those of us “old at heart” may not like the result; but, just look around at society today. It all sense to me. |
I am curious to understand why they think that Wynton is ’bending’ the truth.
Alex, he is not bending the truth so much as, he is telling people what they desire to hear. I almost want to say that you have to be born here to understand all the nuances in American history. That’s true for any country. A very superficial take: For instance: If you are a member of a certain group and you venture into a place / endeavor dominated by the other group, then a member of that dominant group must bless you. Or say in effect "he’s ok, he’s the real deal", he can do, whatever, "as well as we can". In Jazz, "he can play". Then everyone is reassured, smiles all around, and we all move on. It is common and accepted. The person doing the blessing must be considered The Best at that particular endeavor. That’s all Wynton was doing. Saying in effect, there were / is white / European influences and contributions in Jazz. Everyone was reassured, smiled and listened to Wynton and Jon play EVERYONE"S music. That’s the American way. Everyone must be included. Remember, when the Jazz wars were fought, back at the turn of the century, this was a country full of Europeans living on the American Continent. As time goes on, the country becomes more and more American. Everyone had an ’Old Country’ back then, except black folks, who are the most American of all people. So it’s only fitting that they produced the first American Music. Cheers |
I can not believe this fantastic lady "Venessa Rubin" is not in my collection, but that will be corrected; thank you Rok.
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