Music education:
As the great NY Giant and Dallas Cowboy football coach, Bill Parcells said, "you are what your record says you are.
If a Jazz player made it big in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Europe without education or practice, and signed with one of the great Jazz labels, such as Blue Note, Columbia, Impulse, Verve, Riverside etc... good for them. They beat all the odds. I can't name any.
More than likely, they either stayed in smaller local markets, signed with smaller labels, if any at all, and eventually fell under the relentless logic of The Frogman's First Law.
This applies to ANY artist, in ANY Artistic endeavor.
As Bird himself points out, even Einstein had to go to school.
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While Parker stated how fantastic schooling was, he had no formal training beyond high school. That was due to the "economic reality" of most jazz musicians.
"Study is absolutely necessary"; whether formal or informal, initially, all great jazz musicians put in most of their waking hours toward mastering their instruments. During Birds time, some highly acclaimed institutions scoffed at "jazz", just ask Miles, who went in the front door and out the back of Juilliard. (Founded in 1905, The Juilliard School is a world leader in performing arts education.)
Whether one goes to a formal school or is "self taught", intensity of study and practice is necessary. I wrote about a musician who "never" practiced; that's because he was performing "improvisational hard bop jazz" three times a week. (If he had not been performing constantly, practice would have been essential)
He was 36 and looked 26 (I was 26); I bet you can guess his name. Before I met him, I'm sure he had spent most of his life practicing because he "never" looked at the organ keys; quite often his eyes were closed.
At that time there was a club devoted to "Improvisational hard bop" (no standards). That's what the audience that patronized that club demanded, and that's what he gave them.
In my mind, there is no greater musician than one who can constantly create on the spot; "The improvisational jazz musician". Next would be "The pit musician". While the pit musician went through many years of formal training, and can play anything that can be put on a sheet of music paper, he can not spontaneously create all night long.
I suppose comparing the two is like comparing "raw talent" to intense formal training and practice. I've compared the two, live in real time, and they are a sight to hear and behold.
If I was left on an island with only one record to play, I would choose "Bird With Strings".
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@frogman
You're preaching to the choir.
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Re Alex’s great Bird/Desmond interview: Many interesting stories and anecdotes and always interesting to actually hear these supremely talented individuals speak. Two things in particular stood out for me: - First, here we have the musician who is widely regarded as the greatest to ever play this music on the alto saxophone; a giant in the true sense of the word. Yet, notice the deference and respect with which he addresses and talks to Paul Desmond. Desmond was another giant, but with a different voice. - “I don’t consider myself too old to learn”- Charlie Parker C.P. – well,you make it so hard for me to answer you, you know, I can’t see where there’s anything fantastic about it all. I put quite a bit of study into the horn, that’s true. In fact the neighbors threatened to ask my mother to move once when we were living out West. She said I was driving them crazy with the horn. I used to put in at least 11 to 15 hours a day. C.P. – that’s the facts anyway. (chuckle) P.D. – I heard a record of yours a couple of months ago that somehow I’ve missed up to date, and I heard a little 2 bar quote from the Klose book that was like an echo from home… C.P. – yeah, yeah. Well that was all done with books, you know. Naturally, it wasn’t done with mirrors, this time it was done with books. P.D. – well that’s very reassuring to hear, because somehow I got the idea that you were just born with that technique, and you never had to worry too much about it, about keeping it working. J.M. – you know, I’m very glad that he’s bringing up this point because I think that a lot of young musicians tend to think that… P.D. – yeah, they do. They just go out… J.M.- It isn’t necessary to do this. P.D. – and make those sessions and live the life, but they don’t put in those 11 hours a day with any of the books. C.P. – oh definitely, study is absolutely necessary, in all forms. It’s just like any talent that’s born within somebody, it’s like a good pair of shoes when you put a shine on it, you know. Like schooling brings out the polish of any talent that happens anywhere in the world. Einstein had schooling, but he has a definite genius, you know, within himself, schooling is one of the most wonderful things there’s ever been, you know. https://youtu.be/DP7E0K4IMqo |
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Rok, you get funnier every day, Ha Ha!
Did I inadvertently make a funny? Cheers |
Agree about Newborn. Wonderful player.
Actually, that was the fifth time the Bird/Desmond clip has been posted here. I posted it early in the life of this thread during one of the great “bruhaha’s” and got the same reaction....none. Some don’t (didn’t?) seem to want to hear facts that go counter to their preconceived notions about certain things. Great clip and great interview. “Different voices” in more ways than one; and both great.
Great clips, thanks.
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Rok, you get funnier every day, Ha Ha!
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but not everyone is capable of hearing it.
Ain't that the truth. Good thing we aficionados have that capability. Cheers |
I liked the Perry Como better.
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That's the hipsters preferred "Night In Tunisia" "Bird's Bop" is above and beyond anything that ever came out of a horn on this planet, but not everyone is capable of hearing it.
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Doh! I should always check the link before I post it. Apology to all you uncompromising “camp” Aficionados for the terrible oversight; especially mary_jo, greatest camp expert of all. Here’s the tune at the correct tempo/pitch. I know you can sleep now knowing that this classic and important recording is not being misrepresented: https://youtu.be/Zf2y1QdQH_U |
Great clips, Alex. Thanks. Had not heard the Essen Festival recording before. That could very well be the best (favorite) Hawkins that I’ve ever heard. Talk about “attitude” in the playing!
Massey Hall:
What more could be said about one of the all time great Jazz recordings? Bird always sounds amazing; and here he sounds AMAZING! For me, it’s Dizzy that surprises. In his prime with fabulous chops. His playing got a little sloppy in later years. Mingus’ bass playing sometimes takes a back seat in some people’s minds to his writing and band leading. Check out the bass playing on that recording; especially the up tempo tunes. Like the song goes, its all about that bass. Love this record and great to hear Bird with decent audio; and yes, that’s Bird talking.
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Great posts and commentary about Tatum and Christian. Also great how it all puts things in a good historical perspective. For me, it makes a huge difference in helping more fully understand and appreciate the artists that followed. If Tatum was instrumental in planting the seeds of bebop piano, Bud Powell was one of the players who, along with Bird and Dizzy, were at the front of the pack more fully defining the music. Amazing piano player who was heavily influenced by Tatum (twenty years his senior) and who was probably the only one at the time who could challenge Tatum in sheer virtuosity. While Tatum’s incredible use of “flourishes” (Rok) sometimes seems to take his playing somewhat away from the kind of vibe we usually associate with Jazz piano, Powell’s playing, as a beautiful example of the evolution of the music, fits my “Jazz ears” more comfortably if not necessarily leaving them more impressed. Great article on Powell with links to commentary by Jazz greats: https://legacy.npr.org/programs/jazzprofiles/archive/powell.htmlSome “must have” (😊) Bud Powell: https://youtu.be/_zTokThNmPghttps://youtu.be/_YKLYC-PKj8https://youtu.be/zrUuyTymA_A |
It seems as if his entire recorded output was with Benny Goodman, which at that time, was probably a good place to be.
Cheers
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"Still, I think the name of the album should have been, "The Benny Goodman Sextet: featuring Charlie Christian on Electric Guitar".
Esp since the guitar being electric seemed to be an important point."
I never discovered enough "Charley Christian" to form an opinion.
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Got it. I misunderstood. I agree, would have been nice to hear more from Christian. |
Albertson spoke of the recording time is relation to the length of time each player got to play. Solos very short. Speak your piece and get out.
When I said, I wanted to hear more of Christian, it was not about the balance, or overall sound of the recording, but, again, the length of the solos. I never got the idea it was Christian's Album.
I've been listening to too much Coltrane. A good Coltrane solo is longer than that entire record. :)
Still, I think the name of the album should have been, "The Benny Goodman Sextet: featuring Charlie Christian on Electric Guitar".
Esp since the guitar being electric seemed to be an important point.
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Fabulous stuff. Thanks. Christian sits alongside Art Tatum as one of the greatest early players on their instrument. Many think of him as the “Father of bebop guitar”. It may seem like a strange comparison, but for me the Goodman Sextet sits alongside Miles’ 60’s Quintet as one of my very favorite ensembles in Jazz.
I would suggest that the instrumental balance that we hear on those recordings is close to what we would have heard if listening to the group live. We are so used to hearing electric guitar much louder today. In those days balance and blend were always one of the main goals since amplification was a very new and rarely used thing and not playing too loudly is always the best way for musicians to best hear each other (Some blame Rock and Roll. It was really technology that changed everything). On the other hand, Goodman was the leader on those sessions and they had a spot mic on him always. I’m intrigued by the connection to recording time ‘though. Does Albertson say something about this? I don’t get the connection and why that would affect the guitar balance. Great clips.
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Today's Listen: Charlie Christian -- THE GENIUS OF THE ELECTRIC GUITAR with / The Benny Goodman Sextet. Other notables include, Count Basie, Cootie Williams, Fletcher Henderson, Lionel Hampton, Georgie Auld, Click on "show more" for the lineup for the various tracks. Notes: Very informative by Chris Albertson of Stereo Review, a man who has caused me to buy many CDs, including this one. Christian born in Dallas, met, and was helped / influenced by folks like Lester Young, Mary Lou Williams, Blind Lemon Jefferson(Texas Bluesman), Monk and others. Died of TB age 23. I thought I would hear more of Christian, but they were very limited for time due to the recording restraints of the day. But, you can't complain when hearing the Goodman band. I think this was a much bigger deal back then, than it appears to be today. These days, with all the recording time in the world, they have nothing to say.
rose room https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnHQ9IfRzr8 wholly cats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9q1MsEZdoE
air mail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilXGjb7KdU solo flight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfa5CEx4ZkY seven come eleven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpcEvSTkSeM Mary Lou Williams said Christian was one of the first to play Be-bop, and was one of the few musicians who could 'run changes' with Monk. -- Notes Cheers |
Great music from all...
And thank you O-10 for the recommendation. Will check on the writer.
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Great Art Tatum from all of you. I have 2 sets of the "Group Masterpieces" re - issued in 2014 as volume 1 (6 discs) and 2 (7 discs).
Don't have any of the solo sessions. |
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she was from Georgia and she wrote about the South from a southern view point.
She wrote from her personal point of view. Unless, the entire population of the South authorized her to speak for them. Cheers |
Everyone,
Nice clips, info, and discussion of Tatum. I Put "Piano Starts Here" in my chart. First time The Frogman has ever said anything was 'must have'.
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if by any chance you do not have Tatum’s group masterpieces, you shoud get those albums too
I don't have that set. I bought the Solo Set, one by one, don't remember why. Some of the group masterpieces are available at a reasonable price on Amazon, so I'll probably get them. Cheers |
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That was fantastic, and very funny. "Didn't like spaces", that explains a lot.
I guess he and Miles would never play together.
Thanks
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Great clips. I think that in order to understand his place in the Jazz hierarchy, one has to first embrace the concept of influence of great players on those who followed. His technical virtuosity is legendary, but it was his use of harmony and the way he reharmonized tunes from the “standard” harmonies that was ground breaking and hugely influential on future piano players. Hugely important player. Don’t take it from me, listen to these guys: Priceless: https://youtu.be/YAeT3Dr74Ys |
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That’s not, exactly, what I said; and, you suggest the obvious. Of course Rouse was no Coltrane. However, that is precisely what made him so perfect for Monk’s quartet. Just because any given player is of the stature of Trane (not many) doesn’t mean that he is the best fit for any given band or band leader. Each player, especially a leader, has a particular musical personality that meshes well with some players and their unique musical personalities and not others. Miles didn’t pick Coltrane or Cannonball because they were “the best”, but because he felt that their musical vision would add the most to the fulfillment of his. Why not Sonny Rollins instead of Trane? Arguably, on the same level; but, very different. https://youtu.be/yagO50i6O5Ehttps://youtu.be/JiP7jKdAhD0 |
Are you saying, "John Coltrane is no Charlie Rouse". As 'incredulous' as that sounds at first hearing.
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