pjw, Herbie Nichols fan here. Great observation about his style. Not as percussive as Monk, but definitely with a similar jagged and angular swing feel and use of tight dissonances like Monk. Great player who is known in some circles even more so for his compositions which are extremely interesting. In fact, speaking of “collectives”, there is a Jazz Collective ( in Chicago, I think) dedicated to the music of Herbie Nichols. It not surprising that he and Monk were friends. It should be noted that Monk recorded far more and later than Nichols who sadly passed away around twenty years or so before Monk. This record was my introduction to Nichols: https://youtu.be/MRkX0ZFoCFwProbably his most famous composition, co-written with Billie Holiday who wrote the lyrics: https://youtu.be/ANUZ3vF94pEAnother very idiosyncratic piano player that I put in a somewhat similar category of Jazz piano style is Elmo Hope: https://youtu.be/XMDq4GcSrKcQ https://youtu.be/F7PsMUdmOWUInteresting, but little known record: https://youtu.be/Dv9ePH_290ASpeaking of Kenny Dorham and Elmo Hope, my introduction to Hope was this record during a time when I couldn’t get enough Sonny Rollins. Monk’s name appears on the jacket, but he plays on only one tune; not this one: https://youtu.be/4VGwjfZ_NLU |
The wonderful thing about this thread is all the new jazz, that's not even new, that a "jazz aficionado" gets exposed to.
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Herbie Nichols sounds like Monk, but not so much that he would be accused of imitating Monk; he still has his own individuality.
In someways he seems to be an extension of Monk; he picks up where Monk left off.
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I'm going to have to spend more time listening to "New old jazz"; that's kind of like NOS tubes, they've been around a long time but they're still new to me.
Herbie Nichols, and Kenny Dorham are two artists I haven't listened to a lot. There are so many fantastic jazz artists that I haven't given enough attention. Now that I have the time, I'll catch up.
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Are there any other Herbie Nichols fans here. Most people compare his playing to Monk and Nichols did not record many albums as a leader. Thing is that I find all of his leader recordings to be exceptional and to me his style, though similar to Monk’s, has its own nuances. Here are 2 trio albums with Art Blakey on drums and Al McKibbon on bass. Short but really good albums: The Prophetic Herbie Nichols volume 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pTTaVJQX98And volume 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjTfMS3FIGA |
Sociology refers to social behavior, society, patterns of social relationships, social interaction, and culture that surrounds everyday life. It is a social science that uses various methods of empirical investigation and critical analysis to develop a body of knowledge about social order and social change.
Music is an extremely important aspect of "Sociology".
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African slaves landed on these shores, and before long, they were singing "Negro Spirituals", just like back home in Africa.
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Frogman, that's Horace Silver with my favorite quintet, that's beautiful music.
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Actually, Kokoroko was from Grey9hound. |
Catching up with the thread this AM. Acman, Kokoroko is amazing. I plan to devour whatever they have out there over the course of the week as time allows. Are they web-based? Vinyl? CD?
Folks, I'm way behind in reciprocating with music contributions. Being a relative newcomer, I feel like a kid in a candy store. I do intend (again as time allows) to give more back to the thread than I'm taking.
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"I do not care if individuals like or dislike the music that I play. I am usually just putting it out there for others to hear and make their own mind up."
That's a good attitude Acman.
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As everyone knows, I like just about anything with an African beat, Kokoroko is hot; this is the description someone else gave.
"Some Fela Kuti And Hugh Masekela with a hint of Coltrane, presented with femininity."
That seems quite appropriate.
In addition to all of that, they have added some new jazz; they have even gone beyond their mentors, must have them, they are on my list.
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Exactly 17 minutes! Amazing, but not surprising in the least (“For the sake of ‘temporary’ peace”). Possibly the shortest effort at peace in history. O-10, you would do well to apply some of that expertise in psychiatry to your own psyche; it is in dire need. . https://youtu.be/e5G0GnX_1tM |
Frogman, no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it will still be a pig; you can put a bucket of red paint on the thing and it will change nothing.
When you compare the US to Cuba, the Caribbean, and the entire continent of South America in regard to music that landed on these shores in the minds of those people, and how much of that music was allowed to flourish, the difference is more apparent than the nose on your face. Case closed.
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Acman, I'm glad you put some of your thoughts down. BTW, I have a number of albums in my collection that would not be there if it were not for your recommendations.
I'm glad you explained the erratic nature of your posts. New people are born everyday, they see life quite different from me, but life has changed quite radically for so many people, and is still changing, so that is expected. Naturally that change is reflected in the new music.
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Pjw, I was a medic in the Air Force (That's documented) where I encountered psychiatry, I wont mention why or how that's relevant.
For the sake of "temporary" peace, I will post jazz; however, this thread has always been different; maybe that's why it's lasted longer than other threads.
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@frogman Thank you very much. Ill check out Scott Hamilton, like this style alot.
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Nice post acman3. Thoughts later. Just a quick response to maktracy’s query. Coincidentally, there have been at least three mentions of this player since he posted. I think it sounds like Scott Hamilton, but I can’t find any reference to a “Unforgetable” recording by him, so I can’t be sure. Anyway, maktracy, if you like that sound and style (and who wouldn’t) check out Hamilton. Nice playing on that clip, btw. |
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While it may seem strange to the OP, I do not care if individuals like or dislike the music that I play. I am usually just putting it out there for others to hear and make their own mind up.
One of our newer members brought up the current English Jazz scene a little while back, so I knew someone out there might be interested in Dinosaur. Kind of a pop/indie Jazz group I do find interesting.
I think Dave Douglas is someone we should exposed to, like him or not. I thought the Dizzy concept album was good personally, although some people, especially cranky African theorist, might not appreciate it.
I do have a rather simplistic observation regarding some of the newer English Jazz recordings and Kamasi Washington type of Jazz here in the US.
They seem to be able to get to a younger group of people, who would never listen to Trad. Jazz, because they are focused on dance music, while at the same time, due to the more Electronic/Hip Hop dance beats focus, and not playing changes, it seems to " dumb down the music", at least for me. But... it is Fun.
Any Ideas? |
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This may be of interest to anyone wanting to understand a little more about what “African influences in the Western Hemisphere” means. Apology for the length.
For better or for worse, depending on one’s way of thinking, a look at “musical theory” is inevitable if one wants “proof”. One could get much more deeply into the theory and analysis of it all but for the purposes of this post a more general overview is more appropriate, I think. I have posted similar comments with examples several times previously. The resistance to this idea and the concepts involved always seem to be, at least in part, due to a reluctance to accept that, yes, there is “musical theory” involved which explains the concepts; and, what to me is a mistaken idea that looking at and trying to understand a bit of the theory somehow diminishes the raw emotional involvement with music which is ultimately what matters most to all of us as listeners and aficionados. As I have tried to suggest previously, understanding a bit of the theory only serves to enhance, not diminish, the listening experience. It makes one a better listener. Personally, the reason that I feel that to accept, or at least consider the idea of this influence is so important even if it is not understood in theoretical terms is that it is one of the most beautiful aspects of this great music and its history. The traditions of a culture are about as beautiful as it gets and deserving of respect as concerns the arts.
So, how did African music influence music in the Western Hemisphere? It goes without saying that none of this is my idea or theory...duh! A big part of the frustration when trying to discuss this stuff here is that any simple Google search of the subject will yield countless references to and links to far more comprehensive studies of the subject. At a time in history when “globalism” is an idea that, one way or another, has become a part of our consciousness it should be particularly easy to understand the most basic aspect of this “influence”: that when a people settles (willingly or not) in another country or continent they bring with them their unique culture (music, food, dress, language, etc.) which then inevitably becomes, to one degree or another, part of a mix of their culture, other “imported” cultures and the native culture of the new land. In the USA, a country often described as “a country of immigrants” this is particularly relevant.
There are some primary ways that African musical tradition became part of this mix and keep in mind that what makes these musical concepts relevant is the simple idea that they were concepts that were NOT found in the traditions of the other musical cultures that were part of the mix. They are found only in the native African musical tradition. So, if these concepts can suddenly be identified in this new cultural mix (Jazz), where does one suppose they came from?
“If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck..........”
Rhythm:
Syncopation. Emphasis on the “off beats”.
Take a simple 1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4 repeated rhythm. In European music the overwhelming majority of the time the stressed beats are 1 and 3. In African musical tradition the stressed beats are often 2 and 4. Where else do we find music that stresses beats 2 and 4? You guessed it, American Jazz. Ever notice how hard it is for some Caucasians (particularly older generation) to clap their hands or snap their fingers on 2 and 4 when listening to music? It’s practically engrained in the DNA; and further “proves” the point.
Classic Jazz hi-hat rhythm: chin-KA-chin-Ka/ chin-Ka-chin-Ka, etc..........IOW, emphasis on 2 and 4.
Cross rhythms:
All those cool and hip things that a great Jazz drummer like Art Blakey does on the kit....cross rhythms: playing in different time signatures at the same time. The left hand may be playing four beats to the measure while the right hand may be playing six beats to the measure. This is a very simplistic example and the playing of a great drummer gets far more intricate than that. A concept found in African drumming; not in European music.
Swing feel:
One of the unique things about Jazz is that underlying most rhythmic grooves is a “triplet feel”; the sense that each beat has three temporal subdivisions. This places the third division of each beat closer to the following primary downbeat than in Western tradition in which there is an evenly divided (more “square”) feeling of subdivision. A concept common in African musical tradition and completely foreign to European musical tradition.
Call and response:
One instrument makes a musical statement and another “answers” with another statement. Very common musical technique common in Jazz and found in African musical tradition. Not common in Western tradition.
“Blue” notes:
What is it that gives much Jazz that “bluesy” feeling? Blue notes. Used for expressive purposes, in a typical eight note musical scale it is the lowering in pitch of the 3rd, 5th or the 7th notes of the scale; and not necessarily always all three. Unexpected to the Western ear which “expects” those notes of the scale higher in pitch. Again, a concept foreign to European musical tradition.
This is a very rudimentary and simplistic attempt at explaining some basic concepts. For anyone interested in digging deeper, I assure you there would be no difficulty in finding much to read.
“......it IS a duck”
Regards to all.
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Just ran across an oldie. A Concord CD Tour De Force. Scott Hamilton, Al Cohn, et al. Live in Japan. Nice. |
O10
I did not want this subject to come to this but since you insist.
I am a student of history. I read books. Yes there are bad authors and good authors. Good authors always have a notes section which reveal their sources for each chapter.
I am a member of a few history forums and a couple of military history forums. To start a thread on these forums you would do wise to have self knowledge backed up by legitimate sources to answer the feedback. If you answer with opinions and no reliable sources the forum members will eat you alive.
There are 3 types of sources
1. Primary
2. Secondary
3. Tertiary
Your source is YOUR OPINION.
You would not last a month on these forums.
This is not that type of forum yet you insist on treating it as such.
You are the OP of this forum which started out as a jazz aficionado forum yet you have drifted into the realm of a historical forum with claims of historical "facts".
You have continuously claimed that scholarly historian authors have "re written" their own opinionated versions as fact yet you give no sources for your own "opinionated comments/diatribe" to back up your claims.
You over stepped the boundaries of your own thread when you asked members to site sources of their opinions when you have yet to do so yourself. If you want a war then go to a jazz history forum, if there is one, that has a thread about "African influences in the western hemisphere".
With all due respect you should cease your rhetoric and start posting jazz music and not "jazz revisionism"
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Been looking at gangsters,so excuse me if I talk like one. I'm thinking about quitting this mob; first you argue with me but you give no evidence of your side of the argument, just some flimsy nothing and I throw in the towel, now you give me badly recorded music that's not really all that hot. Big time people can sometime make small time music.
What's the benefit of being in this mob? Alex was the last member to submit good music, although Alice Coltrane was OK, but that last thing that Acman submitted was out to lunch.
In regard to that argument, it's like somebody tore some pages out of a book, cause it ain't there, and you guys coming up with some "Wack" don't change nothing.
I read books that were hundreds of years old, they were about the slave trade in Africa written by the slave traders themselves, they told of things too gruesome to repeat; these were eyewitness accounts, now those books are missing; they're just like Captain Willards mission in the movie "Apocalypse Now" it never existed, and now those books never existed.
The descendants of the people who got very rich off the slave trade are still around living large in Africa; their ancestors names were mentioned, the slave trade was no fairy tale, it happened; while these people had nothing to do with the slave trade, they're enjoying the profits they're ancestors made. Could they have had something to do with the vanishing books?
I know the fact that many jazz musicians are descendants of slaves is unimportant to you, but if you were a descendant of slaves you might want to know something about what happened a long time ago. In regard to what happened in this country, Alexander Haley's "Roots" is the "only" account that begins at the shore of the Atlantic Ocean when the slaves "debarked", and follows their history to the relative present. It seems that there are some pages missing in the history books here.
I realize some people have a writing handicap, but maybe now is the time to attempt to do something about it.
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Hmmmm.....I’ll have to check on that. I hate owing money.
Hey what about me? Ain't I entitled to a "Henchman" check as well? |
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frogman, I haven't received my check for October. Please remit ASAP.
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My last post the trumpet player is Marvin Peterson not Martin. He is also know as "
Hannibal Lokumbe".
This was my first time hearing him and he is pretty darn good. Plays in the high register but not crazy like Maynard Fergusen. |
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I have owned "Drum Suite" on CD for many years now. Great album. I just received in the mail today Elvin Jones Live at the Village Vanguard 1974 on CD, Listening to it now. Superb remastering with great dynamics.
George Coleman tenor sax
Martin "Hannibal" Peterson Trumpet
Wilbur Little bass
No piano |
To whom it may concern, Blakey's "Drum Suite" is more African in regard to the drumming than most drum albums that can be found in Africa; that's because of the time span between when that record was made and now, as well as those spectacular drummers;I'm glad that it is in my collection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A1ndido_Camero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabu_Martinez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_JonesPersonnel Art Blakey - drums Bill Hardman (4–6), Donald Byrd (7–9) - trumpet Jackie McLean - alto saxophone (tracks 4–6) Ira Sullivan - tenor saxophone (7–9) Ray Bryant (tracks 1–3), Sam Dockery (tracks 4–6), Kenny Drew (7–9) - piano Oscar Pettiford - bass, cello (tracks 1–3) Spanky DeBrest (tracks 4–6), Wilbur Ware (tracks 7–9) - bass Jo Jones - drums (tracks 1–3) Charles "Specs" Wright - drums, timpani, gong (tracks 1–3) Candido Camero, Sabu Martinez - bongos (tracks 1–3) It's a spectacular album. |
010
I am not taking sides here. As I stated above what I posted is just my opinion and I am entitled to that. As long as I am not saying that my opinions are facts and that every one else is wrong. |
Take it easy, O-10 don’t hurt yourself ☺️
No hard feelings. |
Since it is quite evident that the only way for me to stop this is to throw up the white flag of surrender; I give, you win.
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Hey guys, quick question about this song. I know the song is Unforgettable but dont know who is playing. Can anyone tell me. https://youtu.be/EEX1NJBkm7g
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That's right Frogman, "Henchmen". When more than one gangs up on me, I call it a mob, and since you are the leader of the mob, they are your henchmen.
Tactic #1, when you have absolutely nothing substantial for an argument, go off on a tangent, your favorite tactic.
Neither you or your (what ever you want to call them) have addressed the question of what happened to the African Culture after they landed on these shores, and you won't because you can't. You and your (whatever) can only go around in endless circles of "Pontification".
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O10
Did you actually listen to the whole album I posted by Mtume Foreman Heath??
There are a plethora of rythm's spread throughout the album from slow to medium to fast and to my ears many of the rythm's, which are played with a plethora of percussion instruments, sound a lot like the rythm's of the 1960's African village video I posted a couple pages back. |
“henchmen”. Nice. In my universe it says it all. Sad. |
Frogman, when something "was", but is no more, what is there to prove? So far you and your henchmen have attacked me instead of giving proof that something that existed when slaves landed on these shores, did not just mysteriously vanish. Did they just overnight become "Cotton Picking Negroes"? Like in "Uncle Tom's Cabin"?
This is the history you have presented. The question still remains, why was African Culture so evident in the Caribbean, and South America but not here?
Simply tearing a few pages out of the book of history won't work. It was there when they got here but it just mysteriously vanished; what happened to it?
I don't want to talk about that anymore. We don't want to talk about that anymore; you brought it up.
"It" seems to be relevant to the jazz musicians we are discussing, why shouldn't it be relevant to us?
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In case it was not clear and apology for not being more clear. My previous post was not in response to one of O-10’s. |
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Everyday people attempt to rewrite history, but someone always digs up the facts. The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhD_KJpRwAY |
