O-10:
The Johnny Smith performance was great. I listened to a few more of his. Misty was one. His playing was flawless to my ear. However, I have been trying to figure out why some music, even if the music is perfectly played, just seems to lack something. I think I know what it is now.
Dynamic Range and Tension. I hope these descriptive terms pass muster with the Frogtman and The learsfool.
I would try this Moonlight In Vermont: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ikl8pnHz6k
and you can also youtube Vermont by Billie Holiday. Her voice is almost gone, but not quite. It will grab you.
These youtube thingys are getting to be habit forming to me. The make it so easy to compare artists.
I listen to the Emily Remier cut, and then off to the side was a clip of Wes playing with Monk and Coltrane. Although I didn't see or hear Coltrane.
But the difference was striking. Of course not being able to match Wes and Monk is nothing to be ashamed of.
It is very sad that she died so soon. The girl on the B-3 is great also. I hope she is still with us. What a lot of these folks need is a cooking rythm section.
Cheers |
Frogman, I bought that LP when it came out. Toots said that's his best ever, even though he wasn't the leader. There are so many aspects to that one LP, and I've enjoyed them all, but your take on the music always adds something new.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, dynamic range and tension are perfect descriptions for me, and I know exactly what you mean; those two terms are also technical aspects of the recording. Since that's an old recording, it's difficult to separate the technical aspects of "dynamic range", from the musical aspects which create the tension.
On "Moonlight in Vermont", I read the comments in regard to Houston Person, and they all spoke for me.
Enjoy the music.
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For me, a person, and a person's music, are two entirely different things; at this time, it's necessary for us to make that distinction because I would like for us to get into current jazz, while at the same time we discuss past masters. If it's necessary to bring up an "incendiary" name for the sake of comparison of his music with other current or past jazz musicians, we must restrict that conversation to the music in isolation, because that's the way I see all music. When we want to talk about a person that's one thing, if we want to talk about that persons music, that's another. Is this possible? If not, let's just forget it. Barbara Dennerlein is a new interesting artist who I've not heard before now, I think her group has the "dynamism" that Rok's referred to. I like her energy and style, I see a diamond in the rough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa-nKS89ATIEnjoy the music. |
Classic case of "different strokes for different folks". To me, there is no comparison between the Johnny Smith and the Houston Person versions of Moonlight In Vermont. The Smith is perfect in it's restraint and simplicity and in the soloists's ability to play the "changes" while NEVER letting the listener forget the melody of the tune, thus creating a mood which is perfect for the tune....moonlight in Vermont. Very tasty playing.
The Person version, for me, has TOO MUCH and gratuitous "dynamic range and tension" (good terms, Rok). Person doesn't even make all the changes (one loses the tune) and does a lot of meandering with way too many fast note flourishes that not only are not necessary, but are inappropriate for a tune like this IMO; especially when they are played with blues inflections and note choices. Huh?! Are we outside enjoying the moonlight, or are we in a Baptist church?
While Johnny Smith surprises with an occasional and rare flourish of notes, Person creates a feeling of "enough already". |
Fight! Fight! I love a good brawl; Rok versus Frogman, that even sounds like a thriller. Rok said Johnny Smith didn't have enough tension and dynamic range. Frogman said Johnny was perfect, and Houston Person had too much.
Before jumping into this brawl, I went back to you tube. There was Johnny on this beautiful LP cover with a full moon behind him, in front of a snow covered Vermont, and I can just picture the "ski trails". His guitar, and Getz smooth tenor sax have me gliding down those ski trails on a moonlit night; all of this captures the song. In totality, this ranks with the most perfect "Moonlight in Vermont's" I've ever heard.
Frogman wins by a TKO.
Rok, if you changed the name to "Groovy times in Vermont" or "Groovy Times at That Church in Vermont" ( that sanctified yell by Joey on organ took us there), you would win by KO. Better luck next time.
Enjoy the music.
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The Frogman:
They, Smith & Getz, seemed to be focused on playing 'moonlight in vermont'. Almost, but not quite, note for note as a singer might sing it.
I think Person and Defrancesco just used it as a good place to start.
Although Person went further away from the melody as the tune progressed, I never forgot they were playing 'Moonlight in Vermont'. To me, this is the genius of Jazz. Besides, Defrancesco was there.
On his Cd 'Boppin' at the Bluenote', Jon Hendricks does the Lerner & Loewe tune 'Get Me To The Church On Time', from My Fair Lady.
When he finished he said, "I bet THEY didn't know THEY wrote THAT!! The THEY being, Lerner & Loewe. The THAT being his 'take' on 'church on time'.
Cheers
BTW, there are much worst places to be musically, than a Baptist church. Some good stuff there. |
****BTW, there are much worst places to be musically, than a Baptist church. Some good stuff there.****
GREAT stuff there. That was not the point.
Cheers. |
******That was not the point*******
I know it was not your point. Just getting in a plug for the good folks at Mt Horeb. :)
Cheers |
Frogman,
"Affinity" with Bill & Toots. I am a huge fan!
Toots recently turned 91 on 4/29. |
I was a Toots fan since Midnight Cowboy |
Music Lovers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWIGu6-r67Y
Not Jazz, but a great song by a great singer, that some how evaded my sensory net until now.
Listen from the beginning and pat attention to the piano at 2:18 - 2:19. I always smile and say YES!!!!!.
It's little things like this that make music so wonderful to me. The small nuances.
Cheers |
Today's Listen:
Billy Bang (violin) -- A Tribute To Stuff Smith
with / Sun Ra (piano), John Ore (bass), Andrew Cyrille (drums)
Stuff Smith was one of the premier Jazz Violinist. Died in 1967.
As the title says, this a tribute to him from Billy Bang. All the tunes are standards, which is unusal considering the lineup. Most of these guys played with Sun Ra before or after this recording date.
Bang plays well throughout. In fact he dominates all the tunes. I had to listen twice to concentrate on Sun Ra's contribution. It's there, just not up front. He may have already been in countdown for launch to Alpha Centauri!
These guys are known as Free or avant garde Jazz players, but during this session they acted right. Everything from Jerome Kern to Duke Ellington.
I am not sure the players were a good match. I think Bang would have been better served with more conventional boppers in the rhythm section. But, it is an enjoyable disc. Check it out.
Recommended, if you like Violin in your Jazz.
For some reason they (jazz violinist), all remind me of Stephane Grappelli and Sweet Georgia Brown, Which in turn reminds me of the Globetrotters, Which is not the worst thing a person can be reminded of!
Cheers |
******Frogman wins by a TKO.*******
Curses, foiled again! I was robbed! Rematch?
O-10, as usual you have restored order and reason.
Cheers |
O-10,
I had to laugh out loud at your Miles Davis story. I could almost see it.
Cheers |
O-10:
One last VERMONT comment. I feel you and The Frogman might be putting too much emphasis on the name of the tune. I don't think of Vermont at all. You gotta name it something. Something people can easily remember and relate to.
Which brings up the question: Why and How are Jazz tunes named?
Cheers |
Rok, there's a vocalist who's more current than Ella, who likes to scat a lot, and inflect her own vocal gymnastics into a song like a horn player. She's a marvelous jazz singer, but she doesn't respect the classics, which is something Ella always did. She would never scat on a classic song when the object is to deliver the emotion of the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnwW6QdP9AElla made my point for me. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, at first I was confused by your post. ****I feel you and The Frogman might be putting too much emphasis on the name of the tune. I don't think of Vermont at all.**** Huh!? The tune IS about Vermont. You can't remove the lyrics from the equation. A great song is a marriage of melody and lyrics, and the message can be sent by the lyrics, the tune, or both. In Moolight In Vermont, while I don't know what Vermont is supposed to sound like, I think the tune, by itself, conveys a feeling that is similar to (and definitely compliments) the lyrics. It's a beautiful song, and interestingly, has no rhymes. ****You gotta name it something. Something people can easily remember and relate to.**** The name usually relates to the lyrics. Usually, a composer is inspired by an event, person, or place to convey the feeling in song, and the name is part of the lyrics. You may find this interesting, with Herbie Hancock speaking about the creation and naming of his tune "Watermelon Man": http://bluespianorevealed.com/herbie-hancock-and-the-origin-of-the-watermelon-man/ |
Orpheus, my next music contribution was going to be Ella doing Billie's Bounce. I completely agree with your comments about the appropriateness of scatting some times and not others, and this relates in key ways to the earlier discussion about Moonlight In Vermont. Ella was not only respectful of the song (as you point out), but was (IMO) the only only singer that could scat a solo that doesn't leave me saying "that was pretty good; for a singer". She could scat a solo very bit as swinging and in control of the MUSICAL vocabulary as a good instrumentalist. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLep2fmY6sw |
The Frogman & O-10:
It usually takes me a few tries for me to clearly get my thoughts together.
Vermont: you are right about the lyrics being vital to the song being about vermont. My point was, if we had never heard of Moonlight, and just heard the music without the words, would we think of Vermont? I don't see why we should.
Ella is singing the song so she HAS to do the words and interpet with mental images and concepts of Vermont in mind.
Houston Person was under no such restrictions. The only thing that he had to consider was the music / melody. He had a free hand to blow as he saw fit or felt.
I.E. the song HAS TO BE about vermont only when you sing the words. Otherwise it's just a very nice tune in the category of Autumn Leaves etc..... that Jazz guys like to improvise over.
All of the above could be, and probably is, BS. But that is what I meant in my post about putting too much emphasis on the Name / lyrics of the tune, in relation to the Houston person effort.
BTW,
Sun Ra: I have since learned that he had recently suffered a stroke before they made the Billy Bang recording. Probably accounted for his lack luster playing. Sad.
Cheers |
Ella? Alpha and Omega, of Jazz singing.
Cheers |
Frogman:
Great clip. I visualize her in Duke's or Basie's band. Not out front, but sitting with the guys. They solo then she does her solo. On vocal, Ella! hahahhahha No wonder the boys in the bands resented the Girl singers in the beginning.
Ella, she don't need no stinking lyrics!
Cheers |
Frogman, you're making the music I've been listening to all of these years brand new all over again, as in "Watermelon Man"; keep it going.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, that vocalist I referred to; if she had named whatever she was singing and going through all sorts of jazzy pyrotechnics on, something else; there is a good possibility I would have like it, but instead, she was messing up one of the classics. Houston Person was not so far from that classic, that I would say he messed it up, but it still wasn't as good as Johnny Smith's version. Lyrics or no lyrics, classics are sacred, and a person can go too far for "aficionados".
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Totally agree with Orpheus and Frogman's comments on Ella. Simply the best jazz vocalist for me, hands down. Knows exactly when to scat and when not to, and does it with the technique of an instrumentalist.
Speaking of singers with the technique of instrumentalists, if some of you jazz fans are curious about checking out some opera singers, try Marilyn Horne. Stunning technique, and an incredible range, and a wonderful voice, though for some of you her vibrato might take some getting used to. A great intro, which also happens to be an incredible recording as far as quality goes as well, is the recording she did of Carmen at the Met with Leonard Bernstein in the 70s on the Deutsche Gramophone label. It's a great intro to opera, and you will recognize a few of the tunes. For some sheer vocal pyrotechnics, check out some of her recordings of Rossini and Handel arias. |
Today's Listen
Ahmed Abdul-Malik -- Jazz Sounds of Africa
Abdul-malik (bass - Oud), Calo Scott (cello), Andrew Cyrille (drums) and others
Now this is a fine example (maybe the only one) of 'World Jazz'. This is high quality playing that leaves you wondering if you are in Nairobi, Rio or Havana. We hear smidgens of Calypso, Mambo and Samba. No 'traditional' peasant's banging and chanting here. This is Jazz, the real deal. With a world flavoe.
No filler, all good well thoughtout tunes. The cello is a surprise. It sounds much more 'suited' for Jazz than does the violin. Several African and Asian intruments are used, and they blend in with the music perfectly.
The liner notes are great also. I will copy a snippet and send in a moment. It addresses a topic of discussion we had on this forum some time ago.
Good sound. Recorded in 1961-62.
Looking for new music? Give this a listen.
Cheers |
This is the passage from the Abdul-Malik CD's liner notes.
"The public acceptance of a new Jazz musician is generally a difficult thing to attain. Many players after years of hard work find themselves forced to take jobs outside of the music world to feed themselves and their families.
Others bastardize their art and play types of music that usually have nothing whatsoever to do with Jazz.
Unfortunately, in the Jazz world, a man's ability to play, his skill, or his musical ideas do not govern his success , or his failure.
This can be shown in many cases where inferior musical talents have made fortunes while outstanding players have starved."
He goes on to say that Ahmed has found it extremely difficult to find work playing the music he wants to play and the way he wants to play it.
I guess he wasn't listening. He died in 1993.
Cheers |
If you are going to listen to 'Carmen,' then there are many good performances. I prefer Callas.
If you are going to WATCH Carmen, then the only choice is Julia Migenes Johnson, Placido Domingo, Orch National De France / Maazel.
Julia Migenes Johnson, has the 'assets' to do 'Carmen' justice. She also has a great voice.
Cheers |
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****"Rok, how do you like Marakesh?"****
I ordered my one-way tickets today!!! See you there!! I wonder if I will be able to find a socket to plug my stereo into?
Speaking of Marrakech:
Randy Weston -- Marrakech: In The Cool of The Evening
Weston plays solo piano.
Nice playing, mostly his own tunes. Nothing reached out and grabbed me. The 'Fats' Waller and Billy Strayhorn tunes were the best. An entire CD of solo piano is a LOT. Esp if the player is NOT Oscar Peterson!!
There are some nice photos and a very interesting cover photo of 'downtown' Marrakech. :) Even a shot of guys wearing Fezzes. I always thought that was outdated hollywood stuff. I must admit I got this one years ago based on the title. It's not what I expected.
Nothing african, middle Eastern or exotic on this one. At least not to my ear. You more ''in depth' guys might hear differently. I have a lot of his stuff, mostly with Melba Liston. This CD is not among his best. IMO! Whew, amost forgot to add that. :)
Reminds me of the first LP I ever purchased. Got it from the RCA record club. 'Victory at Sea'. I ordered it because of the battle scene on the cover. I wonder even today about exactly what did I expect to hear. But now i realize it's great music, but not then. I expected action!! :)
Cheers |
Rok, if you want a little Cubano in your Afro try this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV0ew5RJodM
Followed by the master drummers, and Mr. Bass himself, "Oscar Pettiford".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFonpC4yR8
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Recommendation:
James Williams (piano) -- Magical Trio 1
featuring Ray Brown (bass) and Art Blakey (drums)
This is what they call straight ahead Jazz. Modern Bop played at the highest level. It swings. Considering the lineup there is not a lot to say. Great bass intonation!
Excerpts from the liner notes:
***"So many of the refugees from the Jazz avant garde of the 60's and the 70's offer much lip service to the Jazz tradition, but when they play Bechet, Henderson, Ellington, Dameron, etc..., it ends up ranging from unintentional parody to simple assassination"***
Even I understand and can agree with that. So you can conclude that ain't the case here.
Very well recorded. 1987
Highly Recommended.
Cheers |
Rok, if you can't find the "You tube" fuget about it.
Enjoy the music.
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Ray Bryant, one of my favorite players, and one of my first Jazz LPs. 'Slow Freight'
Cheers |
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******** everyone on the "Gon" says "Kind of Blue" is the best jazz album ever********
That's probably a true statement of current opinion on this site. Except us Aficionados, we be hipper than that.
However, as you ponder the validity or accuracy of the prevailing opinion, consider all the other stuff 'everyone' on the 'Gon' believes!! Then all will be clear, and you can give this 'consensus' it's proper consideration.
Somethin' Else?? Maybe one of the greatest lineups ever.
Best album ever?? I will have to listen, think, and get back to you.
Cheers |
****I.E. the song HAS TO BE about vermont only when you sing the words. Otherwise it's just a very nice tune in the category of Autumn Leaves etc..... that Jazz guys like to improvise over.**** Perhaps. But, many great improvisers will tell you that knowing the lyrics to a song, and having the lyrics on their mind when they improvise, is one of the keys to a great solo. Which is why so many players revere singers like Frank Sinatra who were masters at singing lyrics in a very straightforward and unaffected way; the idea being: a great song doesn't need much help. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_CiizL8Vfu8I think that we sometimes like to think that playing jazz, being a vehicle for free expression, is free of any constraints. While it is obviously true that improvisation offers the player a lot more creative freedom than, say, a classical performance (duh!), there are still fairly strict guidelines inasmuch as what is appropriate use of a particular musical vocabulary. "Appropriate" is obviously a tricky and subjective criterion, but to paraphrase someone: "I am not sure what tasty playing is, but I know it when I hear it (or don't)" |
Frogman, casting "Moonlight in Vermont" aside, I really liked Houston Person and Joey D. Instead of picturing a snow covered Vermont, I could picture a table close to Joey D's organ; man that would be ever so mellow, and Houston's tenor has such a golden tone that I could enjoy it all night long, right there live on the set.
Rok's just fooling with us, he got it a long time ago.
Enjoy the music.
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SOMETHIN' ELSE
Basically a tit for tat between Cannoball and Miles. The rhythm section was not even there.
Both Miles and Julian played beautifully, but a lot of muted trumpet and alto sax needs a little more. After all we are talking the BEST ever.
There were no really cooking numbers. On the best ever Jazz album, there just has to be.
The rhythm section was a big letdown. Big time names, but they didn't play up to their rep. Esp weak was the piano. They only showed signs of life on the last number 'Alison's Uncle', but since that number was not on the LP, it does even count.
And last but not least. After playing ended on 'One for Daddy-O' you could hear Julian say "is that what you wanted alfred?" Another example of those egotistical producers making sure they are recognized for enternity!! Trying to give the impression they are in 'charge'. That they are responsible for the great playing. I hate that crap!! That should have been cut before the final pressing.
This would by itself disqualify this record from best ever.
Best Album ever? No. Not even close. Not even the best Cannonball Album.
Kind of Blue? see following post.
Cheers |
KIND OF BLUE
Again we have Julian and Miles, but this time with better backing. The rhythm section was much better and more involved.
The addition of a Tenor sax was good. And a tenor sax played by John Coltrane was ever better.
Much stronger piano playing from Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly. The Bass player, Paul Chambers, was involved also.
I also felt the song selection was better than on "somethin' Else".
Again no real cooking numbers. 'All Blues' was the best tune IMO. More dynamic range on all the numbers than those on "somethin' Else'. The tenor helped.
Best Jazz album ever? No. Again, not even close.
With some much great music by so many great artists it's way too soon to give that honor to one of these two. Hell, we have not even talked about Mingus, Monk, Coltrane, Ella or Armstrong etc..... You get my drift, there is just too much / many still to be heard.
The search goes on.
But at least we now know at least two records that are not the best ever. That's a start.
Let me quickly add, IMHO. That'll stop those Sabre Tooths in their tracks!!
Cheers |
********I think that we sometimes like to think that playing jazz, being a vehicle for free expression, is free of any constraints. While it is obviously true that improvisation offers the player a lot more creative freedom than, say, a classical performance (duh!), there are still fairly strict guidelines*********
Frogman, I agree with all you said, but, you are preaching to the choir. Now, if you could only, have had a word with Ornette Coleman, Anthony Braxton, and all the other 'Free' Jazzers of this world. Think of all the aural pain you could have prevented! :)
Cheers |
Rok, since neither one of those albums was the best ever, what was the best jazz album ever? Put up or shut up, nothing in between.
Enjoy the music.
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"Somethin Else" has never been a favorite record. Being a Cannonball junkie, I have owned this record for many years and have always had mixed feelings about it; it should be great, but comes up short of me.
I agree with Rok's overall take. Clearly, this is excellent jazz playing. How could it not be? But still......
For me, there are some problems with this date that keep it out of the "great" category. The biggest one is the rhythm section. I agree with Rok on this point, but disagree that the main culprit is Hank Jones. I think the main problem is Sam Jones; I can't believe how monotonous his playing is on most of the cuts. His walking lines usually stay within a narrow range, and his intonation is questionable. A close second is Art Blakey, IMO. I confess that, eventhough I have been a fan of his bands, I have never been a huge fan of Art Blakey's playing. I find it is not rhythmically incisive enough at times, and a little sloppy. I think that the rhythm section limits the soloists and the recording, overall, lacks the fire that Cannonball is known for. Listen to "One For Daddy-O", the rhythm section actually starts to slow down a little bit about 3/4 of the way through the tune. Notice how when they return to the melody, it doesn't have as much pep as in the very beginning of the tune. In general, there is a sense that the rhythm section is not reacting to the soloists as they improvise and are not contributing to changing the landscape.
Rok brought up the issue of the producer. A couple of thoughts:
First of all the, influence of Miles should not be underestimated. It could be argued that this is a Miles date; he picked almost all the tunes on the record. BTW, the voice heard saying "is that what you want Alfred?" is that of Miles, not Cannonball. Two observations: it was Miles asking the question, not Cannonball, the supposed leader of the date. This supports my point about Miles' influence. Then, why is Miles asking that at all? Because the producer does, in fact, have a lot of power over the goings on. It would not be surprising if the issue was that the producer wanted the tune a little faster or slower, different groove etc., and they finally got it on that particular take.
Still, a lot of great moments |
Rok, and Frogman, sometime there are other emotional events attached to music that make it so special. Although I've had this album since it came out, after your evaluation, is the first time I've looked at, or listened to it "objectively". Each time I listened to it in the past, there was always instant recall of glorious events swirling around the music. Now I realize those events affected my love for this music.
Enjoy the music.
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*******"what was the best jazz album ever"***********
O-10, That is an impossible task. The greatest Jazz album would have to be a complilation. A 100 CD box set. :)
This morning I just reached for something to listen to. Happened to be 'Kansas City Shout" Basie, with Cleanhead Vinson and Joe Turner on vocals.
Now, if I could only have one Jazz CD and I had to choose between Basie and Somethin' Else and Kind Of Blue. Guess what? It's Basie everytime!! None of that Muted pablum!!
Does that mean the Basie is a 'Better" CD than the other two? Nope. This Basie album would probably not appear on any 'Best' list.
Therein lies the problem or trying to say ONE Album is the best ever.
You gonna leave off Ahmad Jamal's 'Poinciana', Song for My Father, Swiss Movement, Tons of Mingus and Monk. You see the point. And we have not even gotten to some real heavyweights.
But we can try. All in fun of course. I will submit my candidate for you aficionados to trash errrr.. I mean to critique, later today. Cleanhead just said "got up this morning, got me a jug, and laid back down" Gotta pay attention. ahahahahahah
Cheers |
O-10
You won't believe this. I clicked on the Toshiko youtube thingy at the same time that I was listening to the cannonball CD 'dizzy's business' on my stereo rig. So the same music was coming from the stereo and the computer. They were both playing 'Dizzy's Business'!! Thought I was in one of those Star Trek situations for a moment. Small Jazz world. :)
I have the Toshiko CD desert Lady / Fantasy. Guess I'll have to give it a listen now.
Cheers |
My 'special' tune is 'boy what a night' from Lee Morgan's CD 'Sidewinder'. Also my favorite on that CD.
Cheers |
