Aurios bearing work quite well and don't cost a fortune. |
It's been a while and wanted to update this thread. Unfortuantely due to the design (open concept basement) I could not do any upright support post so I did some further research and .....
I purchased a custom made Minus K platform, works great!
I know longer have the TW Raven One table, I went up the TW food chain to a AC3 and now I'm a proud owner of the Black Knight. |
If you must beef up your floor you could remove the sheetrock below and put new joists between the existing, spanning from bearing wall to bearing wall. This would make for 8" o.c. which should make for great rigidity.
Also, consider that I have a 130-140 lb turntable (Teres) which sits atop a custom mass loaded stand which weighs another 100 lbs or so. This is sitting on a floating wooden floor using 10" joists @ 16" o.c. with a single sheet of 3/4" plywood flooring. I can jump in front of my TT while it is playing with no detrimental action to the TT's performance. However, I do have it braced from beneath. But it is not extreme bracing. Only a few uprights were needed.
Just something to consider |
Hi Artemus_5 Thx,
yes they are I-Joists and I would have used re-bar etc. in actual fact I would have had a engineer tell me exactly what to do. Forward, I spoke to my friend who is an engineer and there is a way of doing it but other issues could arise down the road so I have decided against doing it.
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From a builders perspective, you are on a road towards disaster with that plan. Concrete is extremely heavy and needs to be engineered and built with steel rebar to be self supporting with a load. This is not the kind of thing you do with wooden joists incorporated
in all probability, your floor is fine since it is already over engineered from what i can tell. Two layers of 3/4 plywood is not normal procedure. If you have I-Joists, they are very rigid also. |
Thx for the info.
My MBL 101E speakers are placed on Sistrum platforms.
Are the HRS stands really that good and the answer? They appear to be a ridget design, I wouldn't want to spend all that money and then have to still use on platforms etc.
What you guys think of doing this;
Remove the drywall below on the ceiling and box the joist in with plywood and repair. Then from up stairs remove enough finished flooring material and drill a hole in each joist run and pump in concrete. The joist are 12 inches so I could make it what even.
The joist are on 16 inch centers and my speakers are 6ft from the back wall so I could do say five runs.
thoughts on doing this |
The stands to own HRS, Stillpoints, Finite Element - a used one on gon now. If you are going for less costly approach Arcici makes two satnds a Reference and Standard that very excellent. Excluding the HRS which is IMHO the best and most expensive stand out there. If you buy an HRS you'll never need to replace it.
For stands others than the HRS, I like adding a 1" slate or a SRA platform to the top on the stand for additional mass loading underneath your TW Acustic Raven. Congratulations, a super table! |
If the wall is out - how about the ceiling ? Is there a possibility to mount a kind of hanging suspension to the ceiling - 4 points. Each point would only have to hold about 25 - 30 lbs - most larger modern ceiling light devices are in that weight range. It would - in any case - be the most smart, inexpensive and effective isolation from floor-transmitted vibration. And sure can be an eye-catcher.... |
Dev,
thanks for the details on your set-up.
from what you say it sounds like the floor is the way it's going to be. the only other 'floor' idea is to get something large, dense and heavy and try it under your rack. it's possible it might 'ground' the floor sufficiently to reduce flex. but it also might make things worse.
so what you can do is to address sources of resonance in the room which will transmit feedback, which is primarily your speakers. there are a number of de-coupling footers or platforms which can somewhat isolate the speaker feedback from the floor. right now you likely use spikes into the subfloor thru your carpet for the speakers.....which effectively transmit the speaker feedback.....you need to go the opposite direction and decouple somehow. then listen. it might be that spikes into the floor are best, but not likely while playing Lps.
then i think you are on the right track with the various multi layers of isolation you have mentioned. you might speak to TW Acoustic and see what they recommend for that tt in your situation.
good luck. |
If the floor is the problem, the wall is the solution. Wall mount may not be that tempting to most audiophiles, but it a most suitable and technically an excellent solution which eliminates or at least minimizes most vibrations much better than any floor-bound rack or stand. |
Lots of info Thx, here's a little more info. It's in a living rm set-up.
When I had this house built over 11 years ago now I never intended on having a table upstairs. The floor construction consists of 2 layers of 3/4" ply on top of resilient joists. The top layer of ply is also screwed into the joists and then every other 5". The floor isn't that bad but when we are talking about movement there most defiantly is such and adding a table I want to address this properly so not to have any issues.
Underneath is a basement with 9ft finished ceiling, open concept so I can't do any post etc.
When I went to the Minus K web site and viewed the video of the glass of water and coin standing on edge looks pretty impressive. I like the ideal of what one member did by placing the SRA platform on top.
What are your thoughts if I just use one of my current stands which is a ridget design and then place a 1-2 inch pce of slate on top, then place one of these vibration platforms on top of it and then for example lets say the SRA platform specifically designed for my table and finally my table on top?
Let me know what you think |
hi Dev,
there are lots of good ideas in the above posts. my current room has 6" of concrete on a ground floor. my previous room was a suspended wood floor over a crawl space. i did pour some concrete pads in the crawl space and rig some cross members and brace under my gear rack and my speakers and that did make a big difference. it was quite easy to use shims to take almost 100% of the 'flex' out of the floor.
i use a Grand Prix Audio rack system, and have used a Halcyonics.
i read thru this thread a couple of times but did not see you specify exactly what is under your floor. is it a basement? crawl space? how is the floor and the ceiling below constructed? can you get to the supports for the floor joists?
the more specific info you can give, the more likely someone might have already solved your problem and can share the solution with you. it is dramatically cheaper and more effective to firm up your floor than to try and isolate your gear from a flexible floor. |
Artemus, that is not the real reason why some 'pooh-pooh' that solution. Nobody makes any money from that solution and one can't sell guy-wire for exorbitant audiophile prices, but then maybe one could.....? And of course, there would be the debate about the material of the supporting shelf.
Frankly, if I could do it properly, I would insert islet screw directly into the turntable and suspend from there and eliminate the shelf completely.
My turntable is an Oracle Alexandria MK III with piano finish, so I don't want to ruin theat beautiful finish.
Salut, Bob p. |
Inpep.., a great idea and one I used extensively in the 70's and 80's. I've mentioned this on other forums and it seemed so foreign to some that I don't even mention it anymore.
I would not hesitate to do so today as long as you can get solid support from the ceiling joists.
My 15-20 lb TT of the 70's wasn't a problem to hang. A modern mass loaded 50 lb TT might make me extremely careful and somewhat worrisome. So i can understand anyone's skepticism of the hanging method |
Of course, you could isolate the table from the floor by suspending the table from the ceiling, using 4 guy-wires (or picture wires) attached to a solid self with the table on the self. I have and footfalls, etc. have no effect.
Salut, Bob P. |
Jsawhitlock is correct but you may want to use 2 jacks with a 4x6 spanning across the jacks and supporting all the joists which are under your system. Depending on the span you might use a 3rd jack in the middle. For a footer use a 4x8x16" solid cap block. Of course this is with the assumption that your system is on a 1st floor with access to the crawlspace or basement below. |
I would look into solving some of your floor issiues first.....Pick up some screw jacks, the kind to support floor joists.......your local lumber yard or home depot will have them. Just get the size you need and place them on some sort of concrete pad or stepping stones. locate them where your gear is and you will be amazed for very little money spent. I had the same issue and tried many isolation devises, non of them did much except drain my check book.......the jacks solved almost all the floor problems and attatching L brackets to the stand then securing the bracket into a wall stud helps too......I see no other way except a wall mount but you say that is out. |
Since you say your floors are a problem area, my first thought is I would not couple to floors with brass and spikes. Instead, go the isolation approach, either with viscoelastic type material (Sorbothane is a brand name) or -- in my opinion overkill -- air suspensions, springs, shock absorbers... Every one of these products are geared towards an ideal weight, and with that weight, their harmonic frequency will drop to the lowest (between 3-5Hz or better) so that it becomes inaudible. |
I would suggest looking into the Townsend Seismic sink. The older ones used an air bladder, and the new ones use springs. Both are the most effective platforms I have tried. |
Another approach that I have read about but not tried is to isolate the speakers from the floor so the vibration never gets to it. Unfortunately the article that described how it was done was rendered illegible by recent water damage in my basement and I have not yet replaced it. It looked practical but not simple and I would resort to it only if simpler methods proved inadequate. |
Hi Chazzbo, thx for the info.
I have been looking into Vibraplane, Halcyonics and Minus K product.
One of my thoughts is to use a ridget stand, place 1-2 inch pce of slate, then place one of those above isolation pces on top of it and then a SRA stand on top and finally the TT sitting of it. I just don't want to be fussing around with anything once it's all set up, some isolation pces needing to filled periodically.
A member "Cello" has as similar set-up and below is what he had to say;
"In my set up I am using a Minus K with an SRA Ohio Class stand sitting on the Minus K with the TT sitting on top of the SRA. Both pieces separately are well worth the effort and the cost."
"The combination of the two is more than twice as good as either piece separately."
"In my set up, the Minus K does more alone than the SRA does alone."
"The Minus K eliminates anything coming up from the floor while the SRA helps to drain resonances coming out of the TT (which are significant)." |
Racks and stands need same thing.Heavy metal and feet.Specifically iron.Call Bob Warzalla at Sound Anchors and a set of Gingko or other good isolating feet are best option after wall mount.I sold high end gear from 1996 -2001 and though my boss sold what I recommended (Salamander Synergy) it was for looks and flexibility of adjustable shelves.But if a friend bought some B&W's or other good speakers and had wood floors I got them Sound Anchors ever for floor standing speakers (you'd be amazed at what the heavy bases did to help floor standers with and in or a few inches of height as long as they didn't make tweeters to high even on heavy trussed solid oak floors).I know Bob made a better sounding stand for monitors like the B&W 805 that he thought should be mass loaded as much as possible near that speaker as opposed to the prettier more expensive B&W stands.Next to the speaker stands a heavy rack was best way to go for all components and if a good TT like your concerned good feet (or if have money aan active Vibraplane originally used to keep electron microscopes still-but it costs).If you find his stuff to pricey (it's worth it) you can try putting a slab or marble underneath another stand which will help and you won't have to worry about isolation points (they should be used wherever possible.I told folks get floor protective cups but isolate points of contact.On the heavy SA stands I use cones between cross braces and shelves) but with a marble slab you didn't need the cups.There are prettier and more expensive brands but you want weight/mass the more the better.Using a heavy stand getting right placement,perhaps clearing out area between speakers,and doing room treatments like putting a rug behind speaker can be way more cost effective than cables or even new components.The VPI stand or Billy Bags are good table stands but Bob's "heavy metal" is best buy along with a Gingko's.
Chazz |
