Is solid state on the brink of extinction?

My Dear, you cannot plagiarize a quote that's already extinct.

Muralman, surely you mean conniption? And if not, you should at least try to define extinction, especially for those of us not as blessed as you.

Khrys what is your problem? In another forum topic, I repeated one quote by a speaker maker that colorfully explains why Apogee stopped making Scintillas, but not the much larger Full Ranges, and you have had connuptions ever since.

The hand labor that went into the making of the Scintilla would drive it's cost upwards to 40k these days. The Scintilla was made as a statement, not a financial banquet.

You would obviously be surprised at the number of speaker builders that have used Apogees to voice their own famous speakers.

You also act like you have never heard a decent digital, nor an Apogee. If you had, you wouldn't be crashing this topic just to plagiarize my quote from another topic.

Muralman, with all due respect the theme of your post should have been: are the Scintillas on the brink of extinction? BTW, I've already heard several prominent amp makers suggest that every day for the eAR maker is turning out to be Ground Hog Day. No wonder you love them.

Hi Megasam,

I bought mine in the states. It was new, and had been in the hands of a former dealer. From Denmark, I have no idea. The eAR is based on European currency, and as you know, currency fluctuates. I have little doubt the shipping would occur promptly. The packing of the amp is the best I have ever seen.

There are two models to choose from. For 8 ohm and some 4 0hm loads I would recommend the Enigma.

For my terribly inefficient speakers, I use the Pass Aleph P's variable gain feature to good results. Anything over 2 ohms, shouldn't be concerned with what pre amp they are using.

Muralman,
That is certainly a beautiful unit, chrome triangle made in Denmark, and the price is great if it performs for others as it did for you.

1)Did you purchase direct or go through dealer? How long to receive if direct?

2)Is it true that speaker cable connections occur under amp? Can you give more detail how this is done as no photos
show amp connection method at website.

http://www.acoustic-reality.com/

BTW that matching preamp is very radical also.

I have a sample of each type amp in my home;Digital (Spectron Musician II), SS linear Bryston 4BSST, and OTL tube (Atma-Sphere M60 Mk II). After spending weeks optimising the cable/speaker/room/sub for each amp here are the standings:
#1)Atma-Sphere M60. Utterly transparent and deep,informative soundstage. No effort,music just lives and breathes. Bass is organic and holistic. (For you new-agers out there. You know who you are). Does require the assistance of the Zero's on my system to match my 645's to the amp. Useful for winter heating.

#2 Bryston 4BSST. This amp is only slightly less musical and clear than the M60. Detail is great, dynamics are great, sounstaging is only slightly less, bass is also great....though it doesn't quite "breathe" the way the M60's can. Musical with great tonality. A very easy amp to live with.

#3 Spectron. Used to be #1 until I experimented on optimising for the other amps. Slightly more open on top than the Bryston and originally had a better soundstage. A bit dry in the lower midrange, lacks the tonality of the Bryston. Great bass. Great dynamics, just doesn't do the fade to silence decay thing nearly as well as the M60. That dryness just seems to take something out of the voice...but really only if you compare to the other two amps after being optimised. Still a great amp. Coupling with a Bryston preamp brings in more tonality on the low-mids and bass.

Muralman1,
I realy meant no criticizm of the gear rather than simply describing what class "D" means.

Thsalmon,
I think when Muralman1 is referring to digital vs solid state, he’s referring to “digital switching” amps compared to linear SS amps. You’re correct to point out that not all “digital” amps can accept a digital input signal, and that switching amps can employ either an analog or digital modulation control method. However, the key thing that they all have in common is that in the power conversion stage, the output devices in a digital switching amplifier operates in either an “on” or “off” state, and it is thus “digital” by definition. It is this function that gives switching amps their superior efficiency compared to linear amps.

Muralman1,
I’m glad to see that you’re enjoying the eAR amp, especially since I’m one of the guys that recommended that you try it. To answer your question, no I don’t think conventional linear SS amps will be doomed to extinction, at least not quite. Audiophiles are a diverse bunch of highly passionate and idiosyncratic people – and I say this in the best possible way since I’m included in this description :) - who know what they like, plus we tend to be fiercely individualistic in our tastes, and we do not necessarily follow the mainstream. For the same reason that tube gear continues to flourish in audiophile circles, SS will remain as long as there is a market for people with a taste for it. Having said that, I think it’s inevitable that digital amplifiers will do to linear amps what the transistor did to the vacuum tube. I say this because IMHO, the most impressive achievement of digital switching technology to date is that it has demonstrated how true high-end performance can be delivered, even at the technology’s infancy, at a heretofore unheard of price point. Furthermore, as you and I have discovered, when it is put into a no-compromise design, the outcome can be magical.

But back to my original point, it’s clear that once you’re able to put an amplifier on a chip, and thus replace hundreds of discrete components with a single inexpensive part, the market will inexorably move to adopt it, especially in the mainstream. However, in the high-end market things are different because here it is viable to survive with low volumes and high margins, for as long as there are still people that want to buy it.

Marakanetz, I have heard those criticisms before concerning some digital modular designs. The field is in it's infancy, and will grow unevenly.

Tubegroover, I understand. My eAR has not been around much. On some Martin logans, it was matched against Sonic Fidelity. The eAR equaled the SF in musicality and involvement, but went further in uncovering the real thing, and expressing bass passages.

I think you might be on to something about my speaker's synergy with the eAR. The Scinnies are notorious amp benders. The eAR seems to ignore impedances. Although it was a revelation on my system, the SF/Martin Logan are quite enjoyable.

That same ML owner went tubes, after I demonstrated valves on his solid state system. I really thing tube components are going to survive.

Slappy, I guess you're just pretending not knowing about digital amps.

Class "D" is pulse operated amplifier. Pulse generator with pulse freequency F is usually placed before the output stage that is nothing else as transistors connected as complementary pairs like in class "B" operation i.e. the amplifier is actually solid state. This dictates high efficiency of the output stage, less demand on quality of the output devices, less sophisticated power supplies(theoretically no clipping!)

The downsides are:
very high distortions at low volume levels; some of the models are highly affected with radio freequencies.

My final comment is that the best is only relative to what we each have heard in a given system. Excitement over a new design/technology, could well be superceded by current technology. Muralman, <1 ohm Apogee Scintillas may be best matched with the digital amp in question and in your system. But what you have done here based on your speakers which admittedly are probably the MOST difficult in the history of this hobby to drive, have asked a question that maybe in your situation may be the best solution but certainly not in many others. The title of your thread seems more an excitement of finding something that works much better than your Pass amp in your system but might sound like sh** in another. I don't mean to come across as sounding crass but as I stated in my first post, synergy is MUCH more important in realizing what each of us is attempting to achieve in realizing long term listening pleasure from our individual systems.

I have heard a few digital amps, none have impressed me thus far. Detail, dynamics are only part of the equation, musical involvement LONG TERM, "I can't wait to hear my favorite music tonight" is. I am no pessimist, but more a realist. Maybe digital has its advantages in a given system but my guess is that on an absolute level, current technology (SS and tubes) at their best would be preferable in more systems. Of course digital may eventually turn out to be the turning point in getting us closer to reality but to date I doubt very much if it has "arrived", time will tell.

I can't speak to the eAR 2, but my stock "digitally-enhanced/controlled" HCA-2 (with skookum power cord) is far more detailed, emotionally involving, natural-sounding, and MUSICAL than any conventional tubed or ss amp I've heard. (Well.. the Bryston 3B SST was fairly decent also!)

The HCA makes music - listening fatigue is non-existent. I'm staying up far too late into the night these days, cuz I can't shut the damn thing off. Those who claim these amps have no "soul" could not possibly have heard them critically in decent systems. I think the "old school" is biased against the term "digital" - perhaps a better term would be "the new analog".

Played Patricia Barber the other day and was amazed at the reproduction of bass lines: superb resolution and vibrancy, the oft-vaunted "truth of timbre" in spades.

If these amps can sound this truthful and involving this early in the game, just imagine the results when this technology matures...

Bigkidz and others, it pains me to diss my good old Pass buddies. I'm just a crass consumer after all..

Yes, synergy is important. I am not totally surprised the Spectron took a back seat to the Pass and others. There is room for improvement. The fact is that improvement is happening with great speed.

The eAR has an analogue power supply, while all the "digitals" I can think of are using a switched power supply. The ICE module was built to surpass earlier module designs. Acoustic Reality goes further and improves ICE. All I know for sure is the eAR sounds analogue to these ears.

Aren't we splitting hairs? There is a wide gulf in approach in power production between digital module powered amps and bipolar/mosfet type amps. They just aren't the same. Maybe I am using the wrong code word.

I know that TacT is truly digital to the final analogue conversion. Likewise, OTLs are true valve gear.

The small cool running digital modules are sweeping into the audio arena. There are new better (and worse) modules being introduced all the time.

Muralman1, your Acoustic Reality amp is solid state! Solid state essentially means that the circuits utilize transistors rather than vacuum tubes. Truly digital amplifiers, not those with just a digitally regulated power supply, amplify the audio signal in the digital domain. They generally have complex semiconductor chips (containing lots of tiny transistors) that save space and are more energy efficient in comparison to using a circuit board with discrete electronic components amplfying in the analog domain.

To this point, I believe that the major benefits of digital amplifiers are for the manufacturers, not the audiophile. Digital amps make sense for computers and products that must be physically small. When used with more traditional audio components with analog outputs, their use requires unnecessary steps of digital to analog and analog to digital conversion.

Im with Slappy. Can someone explain what are and how many manufacturers are producing Digital Amps ?

I havent heard the Acoustic Reality so I really cant comment, but I have heard Pass Labs, and ohhh what a fine sounding amp. You never know, eAR's may be a giant killers. Guys with smallish budgets, like me, hope for this kind of stuff.

Seriously though, a $129.00 Liteon DVD player was better than the JD-100? Whats next? A $179.00 Apex multi-format whoops the Meitner DAC Six? Well I'm game, those certainly fit my budget better, but I have to say, I seriously doubt it.

Happy Turkey Day all.

I agree with Tubegroover. I had the Spectron Musician II power amp and it was a very clear sounding amp. Clearer than my Pass Labs X-250 in my system but I did not really connect with the music. In fact my Kinergetics KBA-75 was more musical. The Pass had more texture to the notes and voices than the Digi amp just did not have. Again this was in my system at the time. Also at 500 woc it did not sound any louder than the Pass at 250 wpc. Does this mean the Spectron was bad, no way, maybe with a different source, preamp and speakers it would have made for a fantastic system. I have since upgraded speakers and source and the system synergy changed 100% so I am back at looking differnt componets to reach its full potential.

Happy Listening.

I doubt it Muralman, at least not in my direct comparisons. I have done an AB with my current amp and the Spectron, it wasn't even close in any parameter in my system. In another system or with your Class D amp the outcome may have been different but that remains to be determined which I plan on doing soon. System matching, again is the most important element in each of us realizing the goal of the absolute sound or what we expect or hope our systems to do towards our enjoyment of music. I think what you found in your system were two products that improved your system. One thing in this hobby I have found to be true is that improvements often come from unexpected sources.

Ah! Daniel, close to my heart. I am driving Apogee Scintillas with the eAR 2. I still have my Aleph P pre amp. My sweet Jolida 100 fitted with terrific tubes has lost out to the cheapy ($150) Liteon, already improved with three cd inserted patches.

It was the vaunted X600 that was replaced by the eAR.

I've heard only one digital amp that truly impressed me in my house on borrowed Watt Puppy 5.1s. It was the Spectron Amp, and it was an excellent match with a Theta Gen Va dac.
What is impressive sound to me? Something that comes close to my current system: Sony SCD-777ES, Pass Aleph or X pre-amp, Pass Aleph 2s & Apogee Mini-Grands w/Aragon 4004MKII driving the subs. I haven't heard any speaker or amp that sounds better in my listening (living) room.
And I'm constantly searching.
Digital amps are like early redbook CDs to me, still in the teething stage....

My last solid state was the Pass X600, but my comment extends to every solid state I have ever witnessed. The digital player is the Liteon 2001.

My interest is in those who have switched THEIR solid state with THEIR digital.

I have honestly told you my reaction to the switch I made.

It is impossible to comment since you only listed one piece (Acoustic Reality eAR 2 MKII Class D amp) in your post. Not knowing what you had, and what you now have, makes it impossible to assess whether you upgraded or not. Less expensive, current digital equipment can often out perform older more expensive pieces so perhaps you did.

Guess im behind times and am lacking the pulse of the digital revolution in audio standards.

What the hell is a digital amp?

Benefits? Drawbacks? Expencive? Cheap? Hot? Cold? BIg? Small? Power output? ????