Quote - "VTA, or Vertical Tracking Angle is one of those topics that divides opinion...That 'VTA' matters is indisputable, but the purpose of this article is to examine the validity of the claims made for the relative importance of VTA...SRA/VTA matters of course, but in the real world not THAT much, rigidity, simplicity and lateral alignment are all more important"
As a "newbie" (about one year) to analog, I cannot debate the views expressed here with any authority but I am interested in continuing to learn and improve my sound. My approach to setting VTA and azimuth has been to use a little bubble level with double stick tape, centered right over the arm pivot point to level the arm (with the needle dropped into the groove). I can very precisely adjust the VTA and azimuth of my armbord on the fly with this approach. One eighth of a turn in the allen bolts of the arm board is easy to detect with the level. Also, the record clamp causes the record to be pitched down towards the edge and this angle can be matched in the cartridge. This is probably a "crude" adjustment by above standards but I am pleased with the sound and it seems that most used records have warp, even with a record clamp, that is 10 times the tollerances mentioned. Like the original poster, I am wondering if I am missing a great deal by not paying more attention to this? I would suggest to him that flatter records ( perhaps by using a rim weight) would need to be the first priority before more criticality in VTA adjustment.
Raul, Thank you for the kind sentiments. I understand you're trying to share all that you've learned. I'd like to discuss your points/questions, but not here please. Restock started this thread to discuss VTA theory. Out of courtesy we should stick to his topic.
There are aspects to our OL/Moerch and Airy/90X decisions that you don't know about, simply because I've never posted them. I'd be happy to explain if you wish.
If you truly think my little audio history is of general interest, please start a new thread and repeat the above post. That way only the terminally bored will have to read about it! ;-) If you'd rather just have me email a response then let me know and I'll do that.
Jyprez, yours is a good starting point. Try very slightly lowering the arm in the back and take a listen. Continue lowering very slightly until it gets worse rather than better. If your sound is disproportionately coming from one channel, you may need to adjust the azmuth or left/rightness of the cartridge looking straight on to the arm over the cartridge. This too can be adjusted by ear, but the best method is to reverse on channel and playing a mono record, listening for the lowest sound level as one side will be out-of-p'hase with the other.
Raul, your needs are different in terms of buying and selling cartridges or in your ability or willingness to tell us your first-choice arm/cartridge combos? I will tell you this. REGARDLESS of motivation, affiliation, or "needs", I find it EXTREMELY offense and counter productive when a guy basically tells someone else that they made a mistake by buying this or that item (especially in a decidedly condescending tone) and then doesn't have the balls to come through with their “right” answer. I know you’ve mentioned a Moerch arm – but no model, no complementary cartridge – nothing. Yet you blast Doug for his choices.
Look, I appreciate as much as anybody your spirit of questioning, not accepting dogma as fact, and an occasional kick to the anthill. But, constantly citing problems, mistakes, and misconception as you see them by others without giving detailed alternatives is deceptive, very unhelpful, and perhaps downright cowardly. Sorry, thatÂ’s my take on your actions of late. Sure everyone is here trying to learn, but you're not educating anyone - unless you count educating them that you merely take issue in a nasty way without giving at least what you feel is the correct "way". It's like a math teacher telling a student they failed to find the correct solution to a problem but not telling them the correct equation - and, frankly, it's getting old!
4yanx: You can't understand because you are not follow the the "old" dialogue between me and Doug. Differents needs in testing analog rig. "...does not have the balls..", your expresions are out of place. Be serious. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul.
Romy the Cat is the moniker of someone who posted often at Audio Asylym (an other places). He was very knowledgable however most of what he wanted to share was his opinion of you and your beliefs - always negative, demeaning, and provocative. Some felt that his demeanor should be tolerated because his knowledge occasionally added something worthwhile. His lack of civility ultimately got him permanently banned.
Romy actually posted a genuinely positive message - once - suggesting that I would benefit by changing to higher quality resistors for cartridge loading. I emailed him to say "thanks" and asked for specific recommendations. Rather to my bewilderment he sent a pointlessly insulting reply with no technical content whatsoever; it was actually rather psychotic. Audiogon banned him just a day or two later.
Rauliruegas, You've chosen not to respond to my offer to discuss your irrelevant and unfounded criticisms in a more appropriate place. This makes it abundantly clear you were only trolling. I suggest you re-read the previous paragraph and keep it constantly in mind.
Hey Doug, I can help you w/ the resistors issue. Robert Schult (Ridge Street Audio) chose some really *kick ass* NOS resistors for my phonostage. Besides getting the appropriate 75K loading for my modded Groovemaster, there was indeed a lowered noise floor as Robert promised me.
Raoul needs the internal cleansing. Perhaps I'm mistaken and it's really Alzheimer medication what's really needed. The internal cleansing can't hurt, anyway--neither the *girlfriend*...
Doug: First I don't think I have to start a thread on that subject: if you don't want to share ( for whatever reason ) your points of view on those issues, it is ok. " re-read the previous....": What specifically do you want to tell me? , it is personal?. Read my last answer to you. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul.
Thanks again to everyone for their responses and back to the original topic of discussion. I think many of the posts have been very informative and really helped a lot in answering the question of importance of micro adjustments of vta/sra. Sorry for not responding for quite a while. HereÂ’s a collection of answers to various posts that occurred during my absence (dating back to 10/8/04)
Doug – Thanks for you very much for your responses and thanks for going back to the article and for taking a fresh and more neutral look at the article. Thanks for trying to answer my earlier question on why don't we hear the variation in VTA as the LP rotates, since this variation is much bigger than changing the arm height by .005'. I agree that it is very difficult to find a satisfactory answer to this question, in particular since you and many others do have systems that are able to resolve very small differences in vta adjustments via arm height. I am quite convinced that it is the actual minor change in the vta or sra angle that causes the audible differences, but I agree that the answer in the article seems not very convincing either. Your observations are no explainable by mechanical rigidity arguments, since changes in the sound that are due to the arm height change would not be as repeatable as they are if mechanical resonance behavior would be the answer. Also the construction of the TriPlanar arm seems to address the mechanical stability question already.
Thomas – I agree that azimuth is an issue that needs to be addressed in fine-tuning much more than vta. In particular since it is not even a question on which angle to choose. Too bad most companies choose to only hand you a mirror. I think there’s probably more people out there arguing and finding solutions to vta that finding good approaches to azimuth adjustments. Maybe a good time to start a new thread about azimuth…
Eldartford – I did not quite understand you comment on measuring the different critical parameters by reversing wires in one channel. Would you mind elaborating on that some more or eventually giving references?
Decay and Greggadd – Thanks for you discussion of measurement vs. adjustment by ear. In my opinion objective and accurate measurements seem almost not possible in this case. The missing knowledge of the correct cutting angle for each record as well as the inability to measure angles to an accuracy of less than a tenth of a degree seems to make accurate measurements impossible. Remember that I was talking about changes in arm height on the order or less than 1/10mm. Although measurements might give a good starting point but the ultimate measurement in this case seems to be the ear. Also one more question that you might be able to help me out: If one tries to adjust for a 2 degree variation in cutting angle, would that not correspond to a change in arm height by about 6mm? These are huge changes compared to the ones we were talking about earlier.
I was going to post a link to Romy's site, because I find it quite amusing! But, there are some here who he pissed off big time. But at least we know he has a system! His rack description is a classic:
This would pretty much give an idea where is my TT lives. The stand was collaboration with Rix-Rax and was a custom solution to accommodate 14 components. The stand’s frame is metal, hollow and filled with a mix of sand and led shots, toped with heavy like hell, granite bridges. The turntable and the granite shelf are decoupled by a Vibraplane. The rack is as “dead” as it should be. To test is very simple: stop the platter lover a cartridge to the mat, turn the volume all the way up, and begin to jump in the room like a wounded in ass antelope. With .5mV cartridge output, 28dB gain in step-up, 55 db gain on preamp, 11db gain in preamp, 12 dB gain in power amp, with a LF-capable 109-sensitive speakers the woofers should not fly away… Also, in the left bottom corner you may see my beautiful Koshka who has hundreds light-years of space between Her ears…
And, to top it all off, I'm glad you actually did get something out of this thread!
Ha! I guess when you've been banned from about everyone site you're joined, the ultimate solution is to start your own..... Wish he would take as much time to describe what he likes instead of what he doesn't like. Romy - Mr. Half-Empty, himself.
Good thing he doesn't know what's in my system cause all my "brands" have gotten a pass! ;-)
It's not a bad site at all. Evidently he's made a big effort to find out what suits his taste. He also found a great niche photographing wedding$, which allows him all that spare cash. I'm wondering what would happen if he'd insert all Poiema cabling in his system...
restock, thank you. being involved in audio for thirty years i already had this discussion. back when my eyes were good and my hand was steady, I spent long hours into the night trying to adjust vta. back then hardly anybody cared about vta. that meant very crude methods of lowering and raising tonearm height. beleive me i scratched up more than one of my favorite records trying to adjust vta while the record was playing. you can measure arm height to very small tolerances. you will have to go outside audio to find a device to do it. the manufacturer has designed the stylus so all things being equal and the cartridge body is parrallel to the record surface you will duplicate the intended contact patch of stylus to record. trust me. that is the intent of all these cartridge adjustments. think about it. any misalignment of the cartridge either shrinks the contact patch or skews that contact patch from the center of the grove. don't worry about the angle of the cutting head. it's varying record thickness that throws of the vta of your own setup. the other parameters are not senstive to record thickness. thus they dont vary from record to record. having said all that. the final test of anyhting audio is in the listening. if you can't hear it it aint worth the trouble. Just remember the the first magazine article i read on vta was based on mathemical proof of the signifcance of vta which was then later confirmed by the golden ears. I pitty the poor soul who is trying to find the sweet spot by ear. even if it can be done, which i doubt, it has to be maddening.
Something new and even more awkward just occured to me. It's so obvious I'm surprised we didn't think of it before. Geoff Husband didn't touch upon it in his article either.
On nearly all tonearms, including the TriPlanar and VPI that he discussed, changing the arm height moves the arm bearing straight up or down on a line perpendicular to the plane of the record surface. There are a few rare and immensely costly exceptions (Rushton?) but this simple geometry is true for the vast majority of arms.
You see what this means. If we begin with the arm bearing on the plane of the record, ANY movement of that bearing on a vertical line, whether up or down, will shorten the stylus-to-arm mount distance.
Therefore, whenever we adjust arm height on such an arm we are altering not only SRA but overhang too. This of course means we are altering our alignment point(s). Finally, assuming a pivoting arm with offset headshell, we are altering azimuth and stylus alignment too. Oy!
Even if an arm and cartridge were set up "perfectly" in every parameter, moving the vertical pivot of the arm vertically alters that setup.
If we were adjusting strictly for record thickness then setup geometry would be preserved, but IME that is not the case. Different arm height settings for similar thickness records are common IME.
I'm beginning to believe it's impossible to reproduce music via these crazy tools at all! Fortunately, the evidence of my ears tends to overwhelm the scepticism of my brain.
Crawls into corner, sucking thumb, but still tapping toes...
dougdeacon. as long as you dont move the bdoy of the cartridge, pivot to stylus distance is a constant. you are however right in that you have alterered the overhang points. i think what you meant to say is that raising or lowering causes the stylus to fall on a different spot on the circumference of the record. it will then describe a different arc from than the one you used to optimize overhang.
Doug, that is correct, the overhang will be affected in a minor way, when adjusting VTA.
I agree it gets very difficult to make everything perfect on every record, and I don't even try to do it. I just get it as close as I can by ear, and go with it.
It is great to make things as accurate as possible, and as long as it doesn't intrude on your listening experience, then it's fine to do as much tuning as you are comfortable with.
does'nt this mean you also changed the distance when you put on records of different thicknes? by re leveling the arm you have brought it back into alignment.
6mm is .23 inches. I do not recall making any changes nearly that large, once the arm/cartridges were intially "ballparked" in. This (the small changes) are what made the adjustments somewhat difficult to make, for me anyway.
The less than 1/16" crude change, I make with the rider mats, seems to be approx. the same range (a little more) used with the adjustable arm. I'm guessing the arm was 9-10".
I'm also currently using less than SOTA cartidges, which are not very fussy.
We were trying older Grace and Denon cartridges on the Rega deck (mentioned earlier). Didn't care for the sound of the Denon's and was told that the Grace would be too delicate (my wife and teenage Godson also use the TT).
An interesting LP to try, with an easily adjustable arm, is "The Last Castrato". I have two versions (think the later one was issued on Pearl). It used to sell for <$10 on Ebay.
as long as you dont move the bdoy of the cartridge, pivot to stylus distance is a constant
I worded my post very carefully. If you read it again you'll note I said the stylus-to-arm mount distance would change. Stylus-to-pivot is fixed, as you say, unless the armtube is made of rubber or the cartridge moves in the headshell.
does'nt this mean you also changed the distance when you put on records of different thicknes? by re leveling the arm you have brought it back into alignment.
Point covered, re-read my 6th paragraph.
We're not disagreeing, just awkward stuff to describe in words rather than pictures.
Twl, Totally agree. Of course obsessing about minute details is the point of this thread, so I'm right at home! ;-)
I have a recent experience that causes me to reopen this thread. I got a new Shindo Labs mat to replace my cork mat on the Garrard 501. Although these mats are both 3 mm. thick. The mat makes an incredible change in sound. As one of these changes is greater body to the sound but diminished sparkle in the top end. I have spent three hours so far adjusting the vta, asmuth, anti-skate, and even dampening on the Schroeder Reference. All of these have proven quite important to what I am hearing and the new mat clearly has superior bass and is quieter. I think I have found the correct asmuth by way of the equal transparency of both channels. Today, I will try the tracking weight and vta some more. The overhang is right on as is the anti-skate.
Anyone who suggests that setting up a tt is easy is crazy.
I think those who've heard "the magic of right VTA", which obviously includes me, must concede that achieving it regularly requires a degree of effort and/or record-keeping that some just find too bothersome.
We don't mind doing it. Our ears seem to demand it, so we chose our tonearm with easy, accurate, repeatable and on-the-fly height adjustment. That was priority #1. No arm without that feature even made the shopping list, which of course kept the list both short and costly!
Yellow stickies with best arm heights are on each LP, so every play after the first is literally a two second adjustment. I dial in arm height while my Teres platter is spinning up to speed, so it takes no useful time at all.
Last night we spun the Classic 45rpm reissue of the Dorati/Firebird for the first time in many months. I wasn't recording arm heights when last we played it, so I guessed a setting typical for other 200g/45rpm Classic reissues. Gotta start somewhere.
The first half of side 1 was ghastly. Shrill to the point of pain. We'd never played this record with the TriPlanar/ZYX, but it never sounded this bad with the OL Silver/Shelter. WTF?
Throwing preconceived notions aside I started dialing the arm down, 1/4 turn at a time (that's a huge adjustment BTW). I finally got things tamed a full revolution (0.7mm) lower than normal for this type of record. Once my ears recovered from cowering behind the sofa I was able to dial it in to the usual sweet spot. Clearly Mr. Grundman & Co. were confused when they cut that lacquer. It's a fabulous record but the cutting head was set far lower than normal.
Since the only thing I've added to this thread is a little Romy, I mean Raul, bashing, I thought I'd throw out what is happening on my TT tonight.
I've been playing mostly heavier albums lately, but tonight I wanted to listen to some older stuff, like Yes & Genesis, because the old lady is out doing girl crap, and volume is good!
A litlle background. When I installed the VTAF, I made a new arm board to accomodate it, not wanting to cut up my nice lead-loaded solid macassar ebony board. I made one out of 1" thick cocobolo with a red coconut palm riser. This is where it gets interesting.
On the heavier albums, it sounds great. But, tonight, I've been noticing that the thin older (30 years) albums don't seem right. So, as I tried to lower the VTA while an album was playing, I said: "Oh shit, it won't go any lower." I was wondering where all of the bass I've gotten used to disappeared to, and now I know.
I've been waiting to go over every adjustment on the TT until I get my Soro back from the shop (supposed to be last week, starting to get pissed). I have Wally's Analog Tool and everything else I need, but I don't think it can wait any longer. I can't stand it now!
So, it looks like I'll whip out another riser in the shop this week, change it all out, then go to town. I guess for the next couple of days I can only listen to the 180/200 g albums. Good thing I bought a bunch of them before I even finished building the table.
Okay! I seemed to have lost this argument. It just seems to me that your record could care less what angle the record was cut at. I'm sure you all have seen pictures of a stylus contact point. Maximize it and you'll get the most out of your cartridge. It just happens that vta was the last and most difficult alignment that has to be done. The fact that it constantly changes only adds to the myth. I owned the martin logan cls, one of the most ruthlessly revealing speakers ever made. I can say that vta was just one of the many things that affect sound. You can't ignore it but you don't need to worship its alter.
Well, I think I am certainly convinced now that my next table/arm combo will have the appropriate facilities for adjusting vta. After all this discussion I really need to try it for myself. There's nothing better than experiments, theory is not always a good substitute. I am note sure though whether I will get really obsessive about it, since I usually prefer to just listen without tweaking.
Doug, you really brought up another good argument earlier, although I think it is a very good one FOR vta adjustments if done properly. I also think that there is a chance that the cartridge alignment is off due to the slightly changed geometry when adjusting vta. However, for minute adjustment in VTA with a well-executed tonearm mount and vta adjuster, this should not change the geometry more than putting on a record of different thickness. This also would mean that we should certainly adjust for different record thickness to be true to the changed geometry.
Also this makes me really doubt the cheaper vta devices for Rega arms like expressimo and incognito. When you loosen the arm, change vta and then retighten, everything could have changed: The tonearm could slightly shift around in the mount changing cartridge alignment completely, you might hit an unstable thread on the mount, etc. Not the best method to get reproducible results. The bottom line is: If you want to bother about vta, you better do it right with a well-executed mechanism.
I really have to thank everybody here again. I thought the discussion was really helpful and really brought out some of the usually hidden issues in adjusting vta. And I do have to agree:
You can't ignore it but you don't need to worship its altar.
There are very high dollar VTA on the fly implementations that require loosening and retightening. The difference in the ones I have seen is that the tolerances are much more exact and reduce the amount the arm can move on its own while loose.
Also this makes me really doubt the cheaper vta devices for Rega arms like expressimo and incognito. When you loosen the arm, change vta and then retighten, everything could have changed: The tonearm could slightly shift around in the mount changing cartridge alignment completely, you might hit an unstable thread on the mount, etc. Not the best method to get reproducible results.
True, and they're also sort of a PIA to use.
The bottom line is: If you want to bother about vta, you better do it right with a well-executed mechanism.
Are you sure you're a physicist? That sounds more like an engineer to me. ;-)
It's important to reiterate that we were driven to this by the demands of our ears. It was not theory driven nor, as Gregadd so aptly put it, a case of worshipping at some idol of theoretical perfection. It was only after we realized we could hear the differences that we went out, chased down the theory and sought out possible solutions.
That's important in this hobby I think. Hear as many different things as you can, talk to others and try to figure out if what they hear is what you hear. Then choose solutions that best execute your mix of priorities within your budget. As Twl so wisely pointed out on Artar 1's cartridge thread, chasing perfection for its own sake is endless, futile and ultimately sterile.
Yesterday Paul sent an email to a couple of friends describing a listening day with our new cartridge. Not a word about techniques or technology. He simply attempted to convey in words the intensely satisfying musical day he had experienced. :-) His unbridled enthusiasm and joy were utterly unlike his normally reserved self.
That's what I was hoping for when we came back to analog after 15 years in the RBCD wasteland. Twl told me this could happen and he was right. His passion and that of other early Teres adopters helped us rediscover ours. Your path and mine to that passion may differ and perhaps they should differ. After all, the only way to truly hear live musicians in your home is to host live musicians. Short of that it's important to remember, at least when talking here, that stereo is just an illusion.
But when the record spins and the eyelids close (mine do anyway)...
Certainly, 180 and 200 gram records are unusually thick, but there are not great differences among other records. Finding the right vta thus is not entirely dependent on which record you are playing. Some time ago when I had a Wheaton arm with calibrated settings, I went to the trouble of assessing about 50 LPs. Most had the same setting or very close to the same setting.
so much for having the last word on this subject. I did not say perfect vta was theoretcical. I said those who claimed they could find it easily and repeatedly by ear were highly suspect. A claim that offended many. There is a perfect vta and that can be and has been proven mathematically. I have yet to hear anything "snap into focus". Improvements were significant enoguh to justify the effort, however. You are dealing with a very tiny stylus riding in a very narrow grove. I contend that the stylus is affected by movements so small most human eyes and fingers are incapable of making them. diamond cutters and jewleres exempt. Both diamond cutters and jewelers use very acuurate tools and magnifying devices as aids. I read a lot of stero magazines in my day. I threw most of them away. My recollection of the first vta article was science based and not golden ear based. I beleive it was in the late seventys. Like most tweaks I was a skeptic. It was only 'till I got a system capable of resolving the difference did I beleive. Maybe (dougdeacon) you and others had already discovered it. My comment about "worshipping at the alter of vta" was tongue and cheek. Come on, reread some of the descriptions in this thread about the benefits of correct vta. Don't you think they exagerate just a little. If you really want gorgeuos sound get some triodes and electrostaics with a Koetsu rosewood signature.(okay!okay! adjust the koetsu for proper vta. by ear if you like)
As a point of interest given this extended discussion, 6moons.com just published a review of the Walker Proscenium turntable and an interview with Lloyd Walker. One of Lloyd's comments was about his design conclusions on adjustable VTA during play:
Lloyd Walker: One thing we discovered right away is that adjustable VTA during play is probably one of the worst things you could ever put on a tone arm.
Reviewer: Why? I loved it on the Graham arm and it spoiled me. The ability to adjust VTA while playing is certainly convenient.
Walker: Well if you notice, when you adjust some arms while they're playing and you run the adjustment up and down from top to bottom over the whole range, you'll notice some differences but it's not huge. You change the butt of the VTA on our table 1/1000th of an inch and you can hear it plain as day. It's enormous but every time you set the VTA, it's locked in place. The arm cannot flex or move. To adjust an arm during play, something has to be left loose so the arm itself is wobbly. When you're talking about trying to read information in a groove that operates down into the micron size, iron-clad stability is critical. If you leave an arm loose enough for VTA adjustment during play, it will flex and you will lose dynamics, information etc. You just give up too much music for a few minutes of convenience.
Reviewer: But other arms which have adjustable VTA during play have tight locking mechanisms.
Walker: Doesn't matter. When you lock it back down, it's gonna move because that lock's going to torque it to one side and that's not only going to slightly change the VTA but it'll shift the azimuth as well since the whole assembly is flexing to one side.
However, it could be argued that the problems Lloyd has pointed out might be minimal with certain tonearm systems, and the trade-off may be considered by the user to be a worthwhile trade of convenience in VTA tuning vs absolute stability and geometry.
In an absolute sense, Lloyd is correct on this issue, as I think would be expected of the producer of a turntable at the quality level of the Walker.
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