BTB, since this thread seems to be pretty dead...
If you've any interest in what I'm doing currently, you might follow the address above. There's more activity there, both from yours truly and from other parties interested in diy Walsh drivers. In my limited way and means I intend to continue my effort to improve upon my 'little clones'. You're more than welcome to join in or merely watch what occurs.
Regard, Asvjerry, aka jerryrigged, jerryasv |
Is anyone still bothering to look at this thread?
I've been tinkering with DIY Walsh 'clones' and would be happy to trade thoughts, asides, and whatever else comes to mind in the process |
...nothing but the sound of crickets in the night...
Well, anyway...if you're curious...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/207762-diy-walsh-driver-revisited-25.html |
Jedinite...*G* Uh, that's my file. As for the conus, that's what started me out, some 9+ years ago. (Long story, you don't need to be put to sleep by it... ;)...)
Mapman, you might take a look @ that file. *L* Meanwhile, I've moved on. Currently goofing with building a 3 way version ( T/M/W, vertically stacked) just because I don't know of anyone trying to do so.
Frazeur, then you already know about my 'idiosyncrasy' re Walshs'. Just thought I might pay this site a visit to see if there's anyone I haven't *L* 'infected' with my 'condition' yet. "Call me...irresponsible.."
As for DIYers....*L* Well, one never knows. I don't, and I'm absolutely shameless when it comes to trolling for input from y'all. *G* Insight from input can come from anywhere; IMHO it helps to get out and cast about in 'other waters' to see what happens.
...and it passes the time...*G* |
Map, that's the 'problem', IM not so HO...the Walsh concept/approach is almost in stasis, except for the German Physiks units. Although I've not been fortunate to hear any of them, the methodology appeals to me...
(I try not to 'rant & rave', but you'll pardon me if I edge into that territory...*shrug*)
I've decided what & where I want to take my 'little project', in my odd sort of fashion.
A 3 way Walsh 'stack' has a certain 'bent appeal' to me. I realize that this might offend the 'full range F' folks (sorry, Map *G*), but it just might have 'legs'.
Start with a carbon fiber 'woofer' at the bottom.
The 'mid' (in the middle, natch) with an aluminum cone, lighter than what I'm currently using (2 mil vs. 5).
The 'tweet' up top with titanium foil.
All drivers selected for high heat resistance and capable of handling serious wattage. No more voice coil frying, no. And, loud is fun now and again...
(No wrinkles in the bass cone, either.)
The surrounds of a sorbotane/EVA laminate. The sorb on top with the EVA (which in my experience is stiffer and can hold the other up) underneath in plane.
I'll stay with the PVC for structure. Strong and has its' own absorption characteristics. Sheet stock available in black, but it likes paint for the tube stock.
I want to try to avoid 'mystery materials' on the cone interiors as much as possible, as it seems to me to be problematic in the long run. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong if that's what goes down.
Active EQ, obviously.
You heard it here, first. *G*
Lets' see how many iterations/'v.X' I get to slog through... ;) |
...but I also intend to continue making the smaller (6") units better as well. I like the size of the 2 pairs I've currently got running, and they'd benefit from better drivers/cones/surrounds. That, and a tweet on top. Set up with a sub and they're pretty sweet now (if I ignore some obvious resonance issues for the time being), and the breed could only improve....
Besides...when you run 2 pairs of them in a surround fashion, even with just L&R channels (as I'm doing), 'interesting' things happen acoustically. Things 'localize' themselves 'where' on might not normally expect...and stay put...
Cheap thrills *L* perhaps, but it amuses me enough to continue pursuing that effect as a 'side experiment'. I've touched on that subject elsewhere as to what I've got in mind with that.... |
In any case...
I'm going to be busy with Real Life Concerns (like making a living and supporting my cheap thrills), so my little projects are on hold for a time. I'll look in periodically to keep the cobwebs cleared off.
Take care out there. People like me on the highway. ;) |
After 8 weeks in Raleigh...nice hotel, but traffic/smog/installation work tends to fry my little brain. But good product, happy client and $ is always a plus. And I can get back to my 'little obsession'...
Back to the 3 way v.4 as time permits... |
...a long threatened 'experiment' comes to fruition...
Just some particleboard scrap utilized to create a vertically aligned pair of drivers; not elegant but suitable. A pair of units, the top with it's cone base connected with a 'sleeve' to a second, upside down. Base to base, to see what would occur.
It's just as I thought....there is no noticeable negative effect with regards to gross cancellations of response, at least in a listening test. If anything, volume/spl seems to be augmented...which IMHO relates as to why GP 'pairs' their DDD units and indicates such in their specs.
Because of the difference in size of the cones of my drivers, there seems to be an 'evening out' of the tonality, much like what we'd experience with different driver sizes with a conventional speaker. If there's anything going on that's perhaps not apparent without 'getting deep', there may be the condition of the cones moving towards each other in the lower frequencies being cancelled out. If the seal between the two was airtight (which it certainly isn't now), any tendency to 'push air' as with a conventional driver might be damped out. Just thinking...
If there's anything noticeable that's a negative, the spatial qualities at the intersection/collar at the bases create a 'null zone' in the near field, say 1~4'. Not surprising, that. The radiation pattern tends to be tilted 'up' from the cones, more or less at a right angle from the cone's angle.
...but fun to play with, none the less....*G*
Next variant: Mount the units reversed from as shown, but spaced apart vertically...think of the lower unit above the upper one, but say 3~4' apart.
Will the created dispersions 'blend' better, much like the interaction of the T/M/W of a conventional speaker? My experience with my little clones says they will....stay tuned. |
If interested in what the above looks like IRL...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/207762-diy-walsh-driver-revisited-29.html |
Anyway, if you've made it to this point, this is what I've been enjoying sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HjqHXpZtU&feature=youtu.beThese are V.3's with an 'Infinity' styled tweeter. V.4 is under development...they'll look similar, but better 'under the hood' if all goes as planned and desired. |
V.4 project is still underway. Support 'rings' need to be CNC'd, some hardware to acquire...then assembly routines to perform for 4 units. |
Upper drivers for the V.4's partially completed and tested. Wonders never cease, they work AND pretty much as intended. Having 4 units 'act' the same, at least to one's ears, I'll chalk up to spending a certain amount of time 'building between my ears'...it's less annoying to screw up a daydream. *G*
Real Life concerns (large out of state project that'll occupy moi' until Dec./Jan.) will put the project back on the shelf until that dust settles.
It'd be nice if AG would allow posting pics, but one can't have everything. But when the deed is done, I'll post an improved YT vid...with better audio, too.... |
Back from the shadows, again...
Will pick up from whence I left off....collecting parts, make and have made some elements, try to push the V.4's off the drawing board and into reality.
Have made contact with two area audio professionals that have agreed to listen to my current version and give some serious feedback which has been high on my list...one is a good friend and collaborator with the man that inspired this 'diversion' of mine in the first place so long ago. It'd be great if he sees fit to tag along, it'd be like getting to meet Buddha...*G* |
frazeur1, you betcha and thanks for looking in. *G*
'Real Life' concerns still top the list of 2do's at this time but I'm still plotting plans. Reliable means of cone forming still concern me...although I've created positive and negative forms to 'hand shape' them, I still would like to investigate slip rolling them. Nothing seems to be available that can go that small in diameters and that thin in material so I'm faced with either making a slip roller that could do just that. Or a variation that would act like a pivoting roller over a sheet of rubber or foam, which would be easier to fab up.
Another issue is an improved adhesive for the cone's seam. One comment that came in on my YouTube video of the current V3's is 'buzzing', which could be generated by flaws in the seam. Any potential gaps would create such....closing that seam is a hat trick, since fingers and any 'off the shelf' clamps don't fit into truncated cones top to bottom. And holding the cone in alignment while applying one or more really calls for another pair of hands attached and controlled by the same nervous system. The + & - forms could manage this, but I'm faced with a means of keeping said forms from attaching themselves to the cone itself; the proverbial 'sticky wicket'.
Next is the cone structure itself...a 5 mil version with 3 'windows', creating a tripod with 'rings' at top and bottom. This to reduce the weight of the cone, which I've been advised is a bit on the heavy side. Laminated to the interior will be a second 'full' cone of 2 mil, infilling the windows and creating the primary radiating elements. The forms will help in this assembly, but will still be a bit of a nail biter in alignment.
*L* These are the things I think about when I have the moments to spend on the subject while hands are occupied doing something more 'automatic' and the mind is free to wander about...
That, and pursuing a 60 hz hmmm that in the system on idle...mild, but there and annoying. Which may disappear with the revamp of the electronics' wiring and connections that has been long delayed.
Too much to do, too little of me to splay about...*L* |
|
Still beating the rocks together....progress has been slowed by 'real life' concerns but things are still generally underway. Next step is the CNC'ing of the supports and cone construction. One of the V.3's decided to 'go south' so motivation to get things underway has taken on additional importance... |
*G* I appreciate the support that I receive here and at the other forums I haunt. As for 'variations on the theme', I'm certainly finding that to be true. There's a number of 'enhancements' that I'd like to try on just a 'simple' version to see and hear what differences may be made on how it sounds, how it reacts.
I feel I'm close to having a 'baseline' version that could be dealt with:
-A 'common driver' that's robust enough to be 'pushed' without frying it's voice coil due to heat if played loud with a variety of 'source material'.
-A cone material that's not too exotic that will withstand 'exuberance'; I've seen and heard of the early Walshs' succumbing to that, wrinkling. I've had cones come loose from the voice coils, cone seams opening up and beginning to 'buzz'. Towards that....
-Adhesives have to be strong and capable of withstand the range of vibrations and the stresses of being pushed/pulled and generally vibrated incessantly. One learns; fortunately when one builds it, you can repair it easily enough (well, more or less, easier...)
-A surround material that 'damps' the descending 'waves' of vibrations, but still allows for a certain amount of compliance. Zero compliance would stress the voice coil such that it's lifespan would measure in hours; terribly impractical... Early versions I've done can be 'toyed with', placing your fingers on the surround and changing the nature of what's heard from the cone. Amusing to have a 'physical eq' element, but not one you'd want to employ on a regular basis....;)
-Choice of 'base treatment'. I have them on columns because I 'like the look', and it allows for a number of variation there. Damped, undamped, ported, unported, even no base at all...
-Interior cone treatments. The originals had their 'mystery goo' which, unfortunately, had a limited lifespan. Hardening, falling off... What it was is known, and not to be replicated. But it opens up a variety of variations; treatments applied to the interior of the cone surface, some simple, others not so much. I'm currently playing with a variation that's not on the cone itself at all, suggested by a patent that predates the Walsh patent. Something 'that works' that doesn't need to be 'on' the cone has appeal; it won't have to put up with the rigors that the adhesives are put through....
It's a Quixotic Quest, to be sure. I lack the budget of the 'big guys', nor any staff to build, test, change, retest to arrive to the compromise that satisfies 'enough' of the parameters above to be listenable, reasonably accurate, exhibit no major flaws, and be robust enough to be played hard in the way we all do periodically and yet be subtle enough for those passages that invoke reverie they way they do...
I never get the time to totally immerse myself into it....stolen time, late hours, the occasional day. Collecting the parts, making hardware, assembly of these elements into a whole, and holding one's breath when the time of 'First Song' is sent through the wires.
If it flies, letting it 'break in', like any new speaker you've pulled from the box. What will it sound like 'later', when the 'new' wears off...? What happens when you get the gumption to really Crank It Up?
This is my take on the 'audio hobby', my version of 'truth', my search for 'nirvana'. I'm enjoying myself immensely. And it can't and won't be taken from me even if it only serves to please me, even if I'm the only one that has the pleasure of listening to them. So far only a handful of people have heard them; all impressed to varying degrees. None of which are what I'd consider 'audiophiles', so I take that response with a large grain of salt.
I have an open invitation to anyone would like to hear them. I'd welcome some 'educated ears' to give a critique, good or bad, just not indifferent.
They're omnis, after all....not to everyone's taste. But, still....
I will persist...to borrow the phrase from Samsung's ad:
"
Do what you can't."
You bet....;) |
My fantasy:
Offer you a beer before you hear them.
If I can make you drop it, I'll know I've succeeded. ;) |
Absolutely, misstl.
I got to hear a pair of F's eons ago, and was enthralled by what I heard and how. I couldn't afford them, nor had a space that they could work their magic. That, and they were huge and I was too 'mobile' at the time to move them about and risk heart-breaking damage...
I'm not against the current Ohm series; I've even suggested them to others who I felt might enjoy an omni, as they are 'good bang for the buck' and offer a return policy for those that ultimately don't care for them. But,yeah...they really don't have 'that magic'....
I can't afford Dale's either. Even less so, the German Physiks units that I'm somewhat basing my 'design philosophy' on, with some variations on the DDD units they offer. I have my own thoughts on where to go with them, given my limitations...time, budget, available resources and techniques, all that.
But...even given that, they work. Not flawlessly, to be honest and critical about it, but they approach 'the magic' to the point that I hardly listen to my 'typical' speakers anymore. Even though I'm still a fan of the ESS AMT dipoles that I own as a reference to how 'clear' a driver should be and should sound, and how 'fast' they should respond.
At 65 my ears and the 'wetware' betwixt them aren't as sharp as they used to be. As Clint once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." *L* But even given that, I'm still 'picky' and I can still hear enough to know 'the differences' that I seek. But with every iteration, I get closer to what I'm 'hearing for' (as opposed to 'looking for' *G*).
I've been lucky. I've gotten to communicate with current and former 'industry pros' that have not only been supportive of my efforts, but also have been or are in the trenches of Walsh related activities. I have 'fans and admirers, and have been relentless enough that I now show up on page one of a Google search page and their image pages. I suppose one could say I've become notorious in this quest...there are worst things to be regarded for being notorious about, however IMHO.....;)
I'm now, for good or ill, become the default 'expert' on the subject.
I'm the first to remind one of the 'other' definition of an 'ex-pert'...an unknown drip under pressure. Perhaps a better 'fit', given the entity typing this...*L* "Limitations", y'know...
But, still....I will carry on anon....and on and on. Although my spouse doesn't fully understand Why I'm about this, she does like what she hears and appreciates to varying degrees my 'hobby'. One can't ask for much more from that quarter, esp. when pointing out that I'm doing this on a relative 'shoestring budget' if related to other extremes of the 'hobby'.
I have my own opinions about that subject; I do 'tease' from time to time, but try to avoid 'ruffling others fur' about and over those 'extremes' needlessly. We all have our preferences... |
BTW....I'm back. *S* Hi, y'all. *S*
After 7 wks. in FL & 2 wks. of recoup', restoration, and relative 'nice, normal chaos' it's nice to be able to take a moment and see if anyone's still 'listening'.
Anyhow...have picked up the parts and started doing some assembly on the V.4's. The CNC'd bases have been laid out and drilled, the tweets have been installed into theirs, and patterns are about to be created for the surrounds and assembly routines on the main cones. Tubing and hardware will begin to be cut after some 'fine tuning' of lengths...just to be sure, as 'stretchers' for that sort of thing are in short supply...
Have had 9 wks. to consider cone fabrication, still a major routine to get into. Rolling them is still a hands-on activity that demands time, patience, and a high degree of attention and care. I'm planning on doing a 'test crash dummy' or three to ensure I can create 4 final ones that exhibit a high degree of duplication and quality control.
Getting my head back into the quest has taken some 'goofing around' with side projects, just to 'warm up' the hands that will do the deed...
...and I'm just about There. *G*
|
ebm, well, you can 'do' a pair relatively quickly...if you don't do anything else, have the bits 'n pieces around, and have a fair amount of tools handy. To do them 'well' will take awhile longer...take a look & listen at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HjqHXpZtU&feature=youtu.beThose are my V.3's, of which I made 4. They have their 'warts', but the video doesn't do the sound justice. A crappy mic in a typical camera just can't replace a set of ears within the space they create. (2 will give you the reason a Walsh radiator is legendary...4 will begin to freak you out.) I'm working on 4 V.4's. Better Everything. Better drivers, tighter tolerances, a slightly different approach to how they're made. They will look similar, but I'm hoping to post an improved video with better mics and perhaps stereo audio. Maybe I can do them justice, instead of a mere 'proof' that there's a reason that listening to the backside of an odd-shaped cone can be pretty exciting and make one's entire music collection something worth revisiting. ;) I've spent not much $, but an inordinate amount of time pursuing this. While others spend megabucks on cables, I've spent peanuts to pursue something that caught my imagination decades ago, listening to the Ohm F's and A's. There's never been anything quite like them. So I decided to make my own Ohms...different, but Correct. As they should be....;) |
BTW....I'm back. *S* Hi, y'all. *S*
After 7 wks. in FL & 2 wks. of recoup', restoration, and relative 'nice, normal chaos' it's nice to be able to take a moment and see if anyone's still 'listening'.
Anyhow...have picked up the parts and started doing some assembly on the V.4's. The CNC'd bases have been laid out and drilled, the tweets have been installed into theirs, and patterns are about to be created for the surrounds and assembly routines on the main cones. Tubing and hardware will begin to be cut after some 'fine tuning' of lengths...just to be sure, as 'stretchers' for that sort of thing are in short supply...
Have had 9 wks. to consider cone fabrication, still a major routine to get into. Rolling them is still a hands-on activity that demands time, patience, and a high degree of attention and care. I'm planning on doing a 'test crash dummy' or three to ensure I can create 4 final ones that exhibit a high degree of duplication and quality control.
Getting my head back into the quest has taken some 'goofing around' with side projects, just to 'warm up' the hands that will do the deed...
...and I'm just about There. *G*
|
My life revolves and gets abraded by very much the same...that, and the 'real gig' that absorbs most of the day.
I fit all the 'other stuff' into the margins...and that's what most do, MHO...
*L* I'm not 'everywhere', thankfully...I'm diffused enough these daze.... |
Have finally come up with a means of rolling cones accurately with a minimum of applied handling other than set up and adhering the seam. Another wish granted, a source and an order placed for 2 mil titanium foil. Ought to make my larger cones lighter and stronger which has been a goal. That will relegate my 2 mil aluminum to tweeter cones, since a '2-way Walsh' has been my long term focus....
Work on this 'n that has been mostly fits 'n starts, but now things can be more focused with these goals met.
More as things develop....*G* |
@frazeur1 ...*L* Mad donnas' cone cups always reminded me of the chestware that the lead in Wagners' "Die Walküre" would 'project'. ;) Actually I've using 'lock down' to run some cones in aluminum and titanium....along with routing some parts.... Finally getting around to completing and setting up the 'audio-only super 'puter' that I've had pending for way too long... ...amongst other activities...it's been good to essentially have things to occupy us....*s* It's a distraction from the daily downer of having C-19 scything it's way through the population. And then there's this, from a EU friend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZIMWlYy8N8&feature=youtu.be
and this, for a 'musical interlude' to keep the illness at bay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl5BjSWhC0A
I have my own means to keep healthy: PLAY LOUD (I have no nearby neighbors...;)......and my fans...*G* Meanwhile, stay healthy *fist bump* 'ciao |
1st...Merry post-Xmas & Happy pre-New Year to y'all who still find this forum something to pay some sort of attention to...;)
2nd...I did score that Ti...more than I have current plans for, but I am considering variants to allow for the 'what if I do 'X' to 'Y'....If you're making mutants, well....Some will live, some will die, and some will infer other experiments....*G*
3rd...2018 promises to be a very different year for self on a number of levels....too much to discuss here, But....as was said...
Please Stand By....;)
Oh....and thanks for y'alls' support; cheers, jeers, observations, all that...
It IS Appreciated....^5s' |
(My, my, my it's been awhile...*s*)
Still out 'there', here, working the concept. RL/RW activities slow progress but allow for consideration and thinking through the next steps, the next iterations.
Progress measured on many fronts:
-a stand-alone audio-only 'puter; nothing but 'noise' ;)
-improved adhesives, fabrication means, materials
-plans to get 'It' out to let other mortals hear 'It'. The midwest speaker competition in '20 is a target. Obviously in the unlimited category....
I wonder how an omni will fare there?
One way to find out.
It's hard to be a heretic, though....
|
*G* Hi, frazeur...and thanks for the faith ’n attention...
Didn’t mind the crickets...I’ve enslaved them. "Look...y’all keep the bench clear of stink bugs, and learn to keep the beat with the sound track. Otherwise...It’s THE FOOT. Deal?"
Compliance. ;)
All goes reasonably well, again, thanks. The ducks are lining up nicely, and the cats are herding proper. *G*
Contacted the MWAF, registration doesn’t open until Spring but they’ll let me know when it does. Spouse is good for making a hotel reservation for the time frame; it’s an all-day drive each way, so it’ll be a 5 day excursion overall. I’ve promised not to attempt to buy everything that strikes my fancy at the event as a compromise. ;)
I’ve got an open query to any and all that have been to the event:
Has an ’true omni’ ever competed in the ’unlimited' category’?
Just curious....
I did drop a leaden hint that an excellent Xmas gift would be a Cricut Maker in The Project, however. It’s an ’optional addition’ that could improve the overall performance of the finished items; a surprise of sorts... Time will tell...
The ’puter build mentioned before is Finally ready to get lit up.
All audio all the time, nothing else for it to do except sharpen the pencils.
Full intent is, if I fail...I intend to Fail Brilliantly.
Thinking ’outside of the box’ is easy when one doesn’t believe ’the box’ exists...;)
Take care, out there...5’s
|
@baranyi , I wish I could have been there. *S* To be truthful and cards face up, I've not had the opportunity, the 'treasure', nor the pleasure to hear either IRL either. Not that I've not wanted to; it'd be great fun to do so, to meet and greet Dale and hear his wares. And the GP units as well; it'd give another 'reference' to help fit the pieces of the puzzle that I push about with my endeavour. Working in a vacuum of sorts has it's benefits but also it's drawbacks.... I don't get distracted or dismayed, tempted to toss the towel in the former But, I don't know how close nor how far I've yet to go, either. Feedback from you and others, despite how different we may perceive what we hear from what we're listening to, is to me invaluable. And I'll thank you for that. *VBS* ^5's* @frazeur1 , one has to learn from the failures, in order to avoid them going on. ;) Such is life, and the main lesson of evolution. I take the following 'quote' somewhat Seriously: "If you push something hard enough, it will fall over." — Fudd's First Law of Opposition.
From:
I Think We're All Bozos On This Bus, a 1971 comedy album by the Firesign Theatre.
Also referenced by the FT themselves as 'dope humour of the '70's" *L* I grew up in LA getting 'bain gramaged' by such...much to the surprise (and, perhaps, the dismay of some) in a rather Positive Fashion. *G* You Are what ate you while you thought you were eating it. Whatever you may have been consuming...but I'm wandering off-topic yet again. *s* Was recently in the 'First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions' forum here @ AG, where I discerned a great hint as to what sort of Xover I might experiment with on my 'toys'; a L/R 2nd order version. Unfortunately, I also suspect that I kicked the parking brake on during a lively 70mph discussion.... Now, I don't want to get a 'rep' as a 'thread killer'...far from that is my intent nor desire. I'm just another Seeker amidst the Wilder Mess. But I do suspect I hit a major nerve in the audio organism: The limits of certain speaker designs, and what can be done to make them work properly before you introduce them to a given space with whatever you drive them with. And, how individual perception plays THE major role in that perception. Or, I may have exported my crickets Elsewhere. Oh, well. *L* They'll be back at some point. ;) Meanwhile, Happy end of DST; Time to Fall Back into relative time distortion, v.2 of 2, 2019. Let's jerk reality around yet again.... A side 'note' of sorts: Here's what I torture my toys with of late....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQeOm3CuUFY
Go to 20:30 for an apt comment I take to heart. The rest? PLAY LOUD! *L* Have a good Sundaze....*S* |
Well, progress of a sort...*G*
Have spent some free time setting up 3 of the 4 pairs of my Walsh drivers with hf Walsh variants. The 4th pair is a 'goof spoof', a pair of vintage Utah 2 ways 'Walshed' (typical woofer, faced down with a 3x7 horn 'Ohm style'...i.e., aimed @ your face); not 'Hoyle', but loud 'n fun....
Basically, they're all becoming test rigs, to see what will tame their response to variations in 'formatting'...a handy term for 'enhancing' the cones with 'adds' to their surfaces. This may be to the interiors, exteriors, bottom edges....play with the xover to see 'where they play happy...
Since they're different sizes and combinations, it ought to keep me out of or into trouble for awhile. *G* |
