@cd318 What you state about the set up of a Linn is also true of any high end turntable, they need to be set up correctly to give off their best. So, and i have said this many times before, if one is looking for a 'plug and play' type of turntable, then the Linn LP12 probably is not for you. The Technics definitely would be far better as a 'plug and play' solution. OTOH, if you want to get much closer to the sound of the master tape ( as you referenced) then IME the LP12 Klimax is far better at getting you there than any Technics I have heard ( and I have heard most of them, including the new 10R and 1000R). |
@mre28m5 Not the way to go with regards to the Tranq, IMO. If one wants to end up with the Karousel, why blow money on the Tranq? which is NOT compatible with a Karousel. Simply better to save the money and put it towards the Karousel. According to everyone who i have spoken to that owns a Tranq and now owns the Karousel, the Karousel is a major step up in SQ. |
@cd318 Your post should perhaps conclude with this: IMHO.
Your 'opinion' is as stated, although I think you could say what you did about all turntables. In your humble opinion, Linn has been spinning the same 'guff for decades and decades'. In your opinion, the current Linn is 'just slightly better engineered version of Edgar Villchur's pioneering 1962 AR turntable"...and in your opinion, it has the same 3 point suspended suspension, same belt drive, and same platter....
In my humble opinion ( IMHO), you have not heard or seen a current Linn LP12 Klimax. Interestingly, on a recent Linn webinar, I asked why there are so many 'naysayers' about their product on line. Why Linn never bothered to rebut these folks?...the answer was this..there are always 'opinions' on the web, what good would it do to rebut these 'arm chair quarterbacks'---- so very apropos, all of course IMHO. |
@xagwell The cost of the last 10-15% is always much higher than the average in audio. Whether it is worth it is another question and only answered by the individual consumer. I would agree that with some of the Linn upgrades the cost is high compared to the result, but that can be said for just about everything in this hobby. Value for money is not, it would seem, high on most high end manufacturer's list. Not to say there are not a few companies that do offer value for money, but they do seem to be the exception, and not the rule, IME.
Probably a big part of this issue, is that there simply isn't a big enough audience in the hobby to insure that through mass production an acceptable profit is realized; therefore leading to a maximization of profit per unit sold...which means the value for money equation is similarly negatively impacted. IMO. |
@rrm would be helpful to know what model of LP12 ( age, power supply, bearing, tonearm, sub chassis etc) you are comparing to your Michell. |
@coachpoconnor Good to hear that you acquired a nice Linn LP12.
As to upgrades, the next upgrade for your table would be the bearing, going from the Cirkus to the new Karousel. The bearing is probably the most important part of the TT.
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@atmasphere Question.. Have you heard a recent Linn LP12...like an Akurate or a Klimax model? There are a lot of folks who naysay the LP12 because the last time they heard one was about thirty years ago and they heard one that was either 1) not set up correctly or 2) heard a total incompatibility with the rest of the system. Not to mention, there are folks who used to own one way way back in the day, that they set up themselves, and it just didn't sound great...for some unknown reason! Not saying this is you, but this is common on threads about the Linn. |
@lewm Interesting perspective...now what is your analogy to the many tube amps that are on the market? |
@coachopconnor There are a few additional mods to your table...1) Original stamped sub chassis, braced stamped sub chassis, Kore, Keel
2) Power supply- original/Nirvana, Valhalla, 4 Lingos ( actually really five, as the first Lingo 2 was exactly the same as the original Lingo but in a different case, while the later Lingo 2 had mods to the board)
3) Base- Trampolin, Trampolin 2, Solid
4) Top plate-reinforced and non reinforced.
5) Plinth- Original Afro with flute, Non-flute, corner braced and now various color options.
To that numerous 3rd party options, like the recently popular Tiger Paw Tranquility etc., |
@photomax +1. Unfortunately, like many threads about the LP12, there are always a lot of folks who have no issue with posting--total nonsense! Doesn't stop them from putting their 2 cents in nonetheless. |
As usual when it comes to Linn turntables, we have a lot of folks who have either a) never owned one...but still are happy to put in their 2cents or b) owned one, but it was about thirty + years ago, and they never got it to work right, so they sold it back in the day and have been naysaying ever since.
Truth is, like chayro stated, the Linn does NOT go out of adjustment, once it is set up correctly.
Plenty of opinions you will get grasshopper. |
@gordon " footfalls are almost always a problem with LP 12's, even on a concrete slab"...i don't know what kind of footfalls you are talking about, but they must be made by a GIANT for that to be the case, LOL. |
@bimasta So, let's hear your suggestions...and their price points. |
@gordon You want us to believe that a 150 lb man walking on a concrete slab floor is going to cause problems with the LP12?? Is this concrete slab suspended by wire over a large open space, because if it is not and this is the typical concrete slab on a ground floor, I am calling 'BS'. |
@fstein Do tell us what you think is better for the price that this LP12 is being offered at...or even for twice that price. |
@lewm Your post is totally correct, unfortunately whenever the Linn table is mentioned on threads, there are always those who even though they never owned a Linn, or last owned it decades ago, still manage to naysay. Says a lot about these folks, imho. |
@coachpoconnor The Linn you are describing for that money would be an excellent table assuming that you can get it set up correctly and the Lingo is still in good working condition. I think that you would be getting a table that would sound at least as good as any other table at that price point, and as funds and budget allows, you would be able to upgrade to a much higher level, without having to sell your table and lose any of the original investment. Don’t think you can say that about the other options at that price level. |
@coachpconnor You spoke to one of the better 'fettler's in the US in Thomas O'Keefe. He would certainly be one of the 'go to' guys to go to for LP12 set up expertise.
As to your question about the Hana SL..and the MS Nova Phonomena, i don't have much experience with the MS, so no comments on that, with the Hana SL, while I have heard that on a couple of occasions, I think it is ok, but I would also want to hear the Linn Krystal on your Ekos arm. |
Ralph, you make an interesting point. If you could only have one turntable and had to live with it or the rest of your life, then buying one table that has nowhere to go as to upgradeability could be perceived as advantageous!
OTOH, if you wanted a platform on which to build as time goes by and to stay current with the best in analog ability, then the LP12 is far preferable to any Technics. IMHO. |
@fstein Perhaps think about upgradeability as a way to minimize audio nervosa..because one does NOT have to constantly trade or sell the table that is not upgradeable. You can stick with the same platform ( the LP12) and not have to fret about what it is that you are getting next! Easy,lol. |
@saburo Setting up an LP12 is probably no more difficult than a number of other high end tables. The issue is that, at least IME, a basic set up isn't really going to get you 100% of what the table can accomplish. Best to leave the set up to someone who has experience with this...and luckily there are still a number of very good 'fettler's' around.
OP, you spoke to one of the better 'fettler's' around in Thomas OK...did you not believe that his ability would add to the final result of how the table performs?
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@atmasphere I guess it depends on whether you believe that the bearing ( or lack thereof) /motor/suspension ( or lack thereof), and overall build quality/SQ is where you want to end up with in regards to the Technics. If so, then sure it is a finished product in that sense. OTOH, once you have bought into the Technics platform, there is no real upgrade path offered ( sure you can change out the arm, but what about the other aspects as time goes by?)
IMHO, it is not a better starting point than a LP12 Majik, and certainly not better than an LP12 Klimax. Obviously YMMV. |
Ralph, what LP12 did you hear that day...a new LP12 Magik, Akurate or Klimax?
I heard a SL1200G about six months ago, it had the stock arm.That day I also heard a 10R with a 4Point arm, it was a lot better than the 1200G! ( as it should be for the price!!) Neither was that impressive to me, unlike the Basis Inspiration that I also heard that day with the Superarm 9, which was in a totally different league to both Technics. I still think the LP 12 Klimax betters the 10R, never mind the 1200G...I guess YMMV. |
@cd318 This is telling:
"Then there’s the question of just how much better is a top spec 2020 LP12 v a top spec 1980s LP12. I have heard that some have argued that successive upgrades have somewhat diminished its fabled analogue warmth. I don’t know, and it’s difficult to find out as Linn seem to have given up on promoting the LP12 at shows.
The last Linn product I heard, and that was some 6/7 years ago, were some large ugly overpriced floorstanders."
There really isn’t any question that the Linn LP12 today is a superior table from any version from the 80’s or even 6/7 years ago! Nonetheless, there are still plenty of folks who haven’t heard one of the top models in decades, or even 6/7 years ago with ugly overpriced floor standers, that are still more than happy to naysay! I really question why this is?? |
@lewm Lew, I am surprised that you would post such a comment! It would be more than easy for Linn to rebut all of this stuff, but they would be spending way way way too much time doing it, so why bother when it would fall on deaf ears anyway?
I am beginning to feel exactly the same way, lol. |
@cd318 Like I stated in my prior post, I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears, but I would like to know how you know so much about what is, or is not, happening at Linn? Particularly when it comes to Gilad?
When Ivor first designed the table, it clearly could be bettered, over time. Linn have always offered a path to an improved version...how many other table manufacturer's from that era, or even today, offer this same aspect. Please do not tell me that there were perfect turntable designs out there back in the day that needed no upgrades...
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@atmasphere The Veblen effect you mention is certainly a very important aspect when it comes to high end audio. I have spoken to several manufacturers who have told me outright that they are required to either a) have a high price on their wares or b) increase the price across their range, in order to appeal to a certain type of buyer. This has nothing to do with the value, and everything to do with the marketing- and their rep’s insistence. Problem is, for those folk, who I count myself one of, the actual ability to acquire the piece and truly enjoy it is diminished. Additionally, the consumer who shops solely on price is likely to get tired quickly of their acquisition and always be unsure of what it is that they bought...another er, psychological, effect. Happens in a number of hobbies and endeavors, unfortunately this one being one of the most prevalent .
BTW, there is a well known US amp manufacturer who has recently just about doubled his pricing across his range, due to exactly what you describe. His just acquired marketing manager is behind this..same exact product, now twice the price...in order to appeal to his hoped for new audience!! |
@stringreen YAWN. That myth has been disillusioned decades ago...which was when you last owned an LP12. |
@cd318 It is pretty clear by now that you are no Linn fan. Whether you owned a Linn LP12 or not, you still insist on trying to naysay the table.
You state "Linn are possibly one of the most maligned companies in audio today" ---Yes, because of folks like YOU! |
