yeah, I know it sounds wierd. A friend of mine recently suggested one of the pieces in his system is a Hydra conditioner. . .and a valued item.
I'm not disagreeing with his information.... my question is this... "As the Shunyata Hydra's need to have a cable specially made to fit/operate the conditioner, and most folks choose to use one made by shunyata, how do you know if it's the conditioner or the power cord doing the job?
I spent some time recently asessing various power cords. Right off I saw the need to buy some adapters for the cords to decrease the wear and tear on my gear, and speed up the process (run in time of the cords). I put the cords + adapters onto some other gear in a secondary system... things changed sonically almost immediately... as it would have with use on my main system. No other items in the mix. Just the adapter, power cord, and the unit (s).
I'm wondering how one can determine the advantage of the hydra's if no cord - even a cheap one - comes supplied with the units? Apart from the ability to plug in more items than a single adapter gives... it just seems like a lot of money to spend for a multi outlet center..... if of course I was told wrong about the Hydras not being supplied with cords.... I apologize profusely. But a dealer told me Shunyata does not provide a cord with their conditioners.... it must be purchased separately. I guess he's correct as I see many questions about which cord for Hydras for either this or that applicaton... and that different Hydras' have different sonic attributes... Well how do you know if right off the bat you gotta add a Shunyata cord to it... Oh, by the way... I own a Shunyata Python VX, and I do dig it. ...just curious about adding a Hydra elsewhere in the system for one or two other pieces that are not 'conditioned'..
In the "For what it's worth" department, I suppose I should follow up on my querry based upon actual comparisons and an at length monolouge to that end will soon be posted in the reivews section here at Audiogone. Suffice it to say that personal experience with Shunyata revealed to me a company willing to go that extra mile to accomodate it's customers. Additionally, to resolve issues surrounding 'mis-imformation'. It is certainly most energizing to see a company initiate and maintain such a posture. Bravo!
On the Question portion... How do you know what a Hydra does if no cord is supplied with it?
Naturally as is posted above, that error is or has been remedied. A Venom cord, as was related to me can be had as standard issue. In the case of the passive conditioner, I found a lean towards more the smoother end in my system, and less a dynamic addition. This notation is subjective of course and was based upon a comparison to a PS audio UPC 200, both conditoners using the same power cord itteration, save one of the two cords was set to accomodate a 20A IEC fitting for connection to the Hydra while the other like wise cord was fitted with a 15A IEC connection. Apart from the plugs being dissimilar on one end they were identical.
Another point I'd make is that the conditioners, both UPC200 & HYDRA, take on the character of the cord and integrate that aspect into the system. Certainly they do a more than fair job of reducing hash & junk from off the power line as is their purpose. Attaching different cords to the passive conds allowed for some interesting results. Still in all I found the UPC to be more the dynamic of the two units. The Hydra being the more 'refined'... both units atttenuate noise, and add a factor of smoothing to the soundscape. I was limited to the one identical power cord testing episode though. I've tried several cords on the UPC and all have impacted the system with the character of the cord being the predonminate 'change' in the system... I do not doubt one bit that a more dynamic cord applied to the Hydra would provide a more dynamic impact to one's system, however.
The bottom line as I see it is that passive conditioners are substantially dependant upon the supply cord to a system than is their own subtractive impact upon power line abberations.
both units have options the other does not... and they also have their own 'character' with or without a cord being supplied. the Hydra additionally 'filters' both ways, coming and going and reamins steady in it's 'quieting' function, the UPC tends to slowly develop it's level of quieting to it's peak, hence power outages (however brief), temporairly detract from it's performance level as it has then to regain it's peak once more. the Hydra seemed unaffected by outages once broken in. one last note here is that the Hydra configuration differs from the UPC in that the supply cord enters the unit in the rear, and the supplied cords enter on the opposite side of the conditioner... this can be quite the useful method for connecting devices. All the supplys and supplied cords on the UPC are on the same side and may or may not pose an issue for connecting gear.
Lastly ... the UPC 200 has one option the Hydra does not have, it can be relegated to one of two levels of quieting via a switch underneath the unit. In HIGH CURRENT, all four outlets are in parallel. you get the highest level of quieting according to the manufacturer there... as much as 60db. using the DUAL MODE setting, the pair of outlets are separated for use with dissimilar devices, ie., digital and analog. The quieting factor is diminished as well by about 20db... again according to PS audio... according to me, yeah, it does lessen the quieting a touch by going to the DUAL MODE function. In dual mode the hydra and UPC are about the same to these ears in terms of the elimination of power line problems..
There are a few more items separating the two units from one another and I'll describe them where they should be described... Hopefully in a head-to-head review of the two units shortly in the Audiogone review section...
AS with all of this high end audio hobby, results are subjectively determined. As is seen in just this one thread from the "threadees" posts. The concrete answer though is "Yes. the Hydra does add an element of conditioning to the system, and does quite the job too for a passive unit. The cord one chooses to use will also become a factor." Just how much a difference this will make in a system depends... So is it "The real deal?" Well, it certinaly is "A real deal", to be sure. Whether or not it is 'the' deal is once more 'the' subjective decision.
Again many thanks for those who contributed here and continue to contribute, I thank you all. Especially Shunyata for their hands on approach to clear the air as to their products applications and use, as wella as their stance on attending to customer inquiries and satisfaction. Were it so with the rest of manufacturers out there... audiophillia would be a lot more fun.
"Bill, if the cost of running a dedicated line by a profesional electrician in your area is equal to, or less than, the cost of doing the same in Los Angeles, then it should cost less than a Hydra 2 and an accompanying power cord. perhaps your situation is different. It cost me a total of $500 to run two dedicated lines, including two Porter Ports." -Tvad
No, my situation is not different. It was quite inexpensive to run the first dedicated line, about 200 bucks total. It's just the logistics of getting an electrician scheduled, and at a time when someone will be home. In other words, it requires my wife's cooperation and time. Both of those things are in limited supply when it comes to my audiophile habit. However, you are correct (as usual) about the relative costs. -Bill
AM has been dramatic in my system. No, I haven't heard the AM with my Exemplar so I'll let you know when I know. The detail of the Exemplar should only get better/refined, not worse. I have never heard of any Audio Magic Digital having a deleterious effect on the front end. Never! Maybe no effect? When I get my Exemplar, next week, I'll spend a good couple of weeks getting to know it and how it does with my rig and tunes. By then, Jerry (Mr Silver himself, of Audio Magic fame) will have fully broken in my new Digital. I'll know when I hook it up to my rig what goodies it will bear. If it only improves things 10%? That's good enough for me. You know what 10% of a million bucks is? Nothing to sneeze at. I've never found anything less than wonderful experiences with Audio Magic. I, too, have heard amazing things about Sound Application. I am in a new geography, now, so the electric here, may not be as busy as it was in Point Lookout. We shall see.
The Hydra 2 is good. I personally am not into good. The Audio Magic Mini Digital is hands down the best conditioner for a cdp, that I have ever heard. I have a Hydra 2, so I have been able to compare both. I'm waiting for delivery for my brand spanking new AM Mini Digital for my new cdp. That, a dedicated outlet, two great cords to hook this whole baby up= electric nirvana. Now, if you are not happy with your sound: look to the source...
"Couldn't a second dedicated line be run next to the one existing dedicated line? After all, you already have a four outlet gang box in the wall." -Tvad
Yes, that's a very good idea that was also mentioned by Lak, the seller. Actually, he suggested TWO more dedicated lines, one for each of the Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks. It would be necessary to convince my wife about this, though. There may have to be a waiting period prior to the spousal authorization of such a procedure, if you know what I mean....... Meanwhile, I'll look into that VH Audio Hotbox. Presumably you think that's a good unit, I take it. I may also check out a Hydra 2. Thanks for the ideas. -Bill
Thanks guys. (Grant, I also left a message on your company's answering machine.) I THINK I understand what you're recommending:
It sounds like the monoblock amps should be plugged into the dedicated line, and probably nothing else. However, the limiting factor is the number of available outlets.
So, now there are even more questions: Would it be okay to plug the Rel Storm 3 sub bass unit and the preamplifier into that dedicated line along with the two monoblocks, or would that screw up the isolation? If the preamp and the Rel were plugged into that same line with the monoblocks, then at least all four of its outlets would be being used.
Then there'd be two wall outlets remaining, one on either side of the entertainment center. Neither of these would be from the dedicated line. Would it be okay to plug the Hydra into one and the Powervar into the other? {The reason I was trying to ditch the Powervar is because it appears to be transmitting transformer hum through the system.} Thanks.
Grant, I just committed to buy the original Hydra from Lak. This one has six ivory outlets in the back. It has three separate circuits, I think. So, would that work? Should it be plugged into the same line as the amps and preamps, or should it go into a different wall unit? If I plug it into a different wall unit, should I at least put Porter Ports into those even though they aren't "dedicated" lines? To increase the number of plug-ins, what would you recommend as an outlet doubler (adaptor)? Thanks. -Bill
Separating high-current components on their own line is _always_ preferable to puttinal all components on a single line, power conditioner or not.
Those that take amps off of a separate line and place them with other components on the same line are removing a direct dedicated AC source, which amps prefer, and ganging them together with all manner of other components. Running all the components through a single power cable to the wall from the conditioner inhibits and corrupts the current path compared to keeping them separated.
Nothing you are doing is inherently bad, it's just that no power distribution system can make up for what is gained by isolating high-current electronics from noise sensitive and low-current electronics --on separate lines. That is why some companies make vairiably sized power distribution units. So those that have multiple lines can take advantage of them and still benefit from noise isolation.
Grant, The Powervar has the Universal player, DAC, a powered antenna, an equalizer, the Stax headphone amp, another DVD/VCR player/recorder (I think), and the satellite receiver (I think). It's pretty much full. -Bill
"Most people have dedicated lines and then plug most of their gear into a Hydra 6 or 8 or other conditioner and totally miss the benefits of the dedicated line." -Jtinn
Dumb question, but I'll ask it anyway: Could you please explain why this is true in more detail? I have a dedicated line with four outlets, and the two monoblock amps, the preamp, and the Powervar (a 10 amp model) are all plugged into the wall outlets for that dedicated line. Everything else except the sub bass unit and the television is plugged into the Powervar (which is plugged into the same line, as stated). Is that bad????????
{The TV is plugged into the main house circuit directly into the wall, not into the dedicated line. The sub bass unit (Rel Storm III) is plugged into the wall also, into a different outlet, and not into the dedicated line.}
Why I'm asking: I am considering upgrading to a multi-outlet Hydra to replace the Powervar, but have limited options for where to plug it in.
If you contact us via our cservice@shunyata.com account, or via phone at 360 297 8960, I guarantee you will have a reply within the same day most likely, or certainly within 24hrs. We have over 22 people at the factory most days and several dedicated to customer service. Please send me the number or e-mail that wasn't working for you and I'll try to find out why.
Regarding the stock cord, I have already sent reminders to our dealer base. In your case, however, as I said before, if you have HE cords upstream, I would not recommend the 12 gauge stock cord for the Hydra, and neither would our dealers.
I already sent you my contact details and you may contact me directly.
I had my favorite power cable (Kubala-Sosna) build it with the plug needed to fit my original Hydra. The other option would be to replace the plug on the Hydra.
RE: Contacting shunyata directly... After three phone calls and as many emails... without a response, I simply gave up trying to ascertain the bonafide answer.. and accepted the current 'norm', or practice of Hydras being sold sans cords. so it wasn't for lack of trying, I assure you of that. That indeed though did play a good part of my buying decision, I must say.
I didn't think what I was being told by the one dealer made sense - "No cord?" At all? "Nope." then asked another Shunyata dealer and got the same answer. With the affirming statement "Because of the varied applications one may put the Hydra (s) to use with various components." following. Well. OK. Sort of made sense...
When I was in retail, I was at point of sale the 'representative of the manufactuers products I sold. A direct reflection of them and to some degree their agent. I made it a point to relay only the manufacturers position as to available options, and warranties. If I didn't know, I would ask either thier local sales rep or them directly. I also made a point of regular contact with the manufacturers' reps so no misinformation could be passed to the consumer that would reflect negatively either upon the manufacturer or my company. That notion is simply put, 'Good business.' ... for everyone concerned.
I can not count the number of people with whom I spoke over the past few months that indicated a likewise statement about no cord accompanying Hydras. Given those experiences along with my interest, and desire to find 'the' fit... I've rented, experiemented, tried several Shunyata products, and bought and paid for at least the one I own... taking into consideration price, 'support', or in my case at least, it's lack.
I do appreciate this, the latest bit of info from a most responsible Shunyata source to the contrary - however belated. Thank you. Perhaps some promulgation and stressing of what is common sales tactics versus the truth of things is in order.
The cord offered is a heavier than usual (12 gauge as opposed the the usual 14 or 16 gauge) Belden. It is not a cord of our making.
Of course, it is _not_ the responsibility of the customer to ask for the cord. It is the responsibility of the dealer to offer it as an option. We do encourage the dealer to tell customers that the cord chosen to supply current to the Hydra is important to system performance, more important than cords connected to individual electronics.
In some cases, if the customer already has HE cords upstream, I can understand why the dealer would promote a better cord to the Hydra. Using a stock cord preceding HE cords will limit the Hydras (or most other power distributors) performance. Again, we see little point in using a HE cord to a CD player or amp, when you have a Belden type cord preceding it.
Since it is our responsibility to insure that dealers offer the stock cord, I will address our dealer group again on this issue to make sure this occurs. We have added a number of new dealers in the past year, so its possible some have not offered the stock cord for one reason or another, however, this is the first I've seen or heard a complaint.
This is not a policy "in flux". It has been our policy since late '03. Our intent in having the dealer offer a choice of power cord is to insure the optimal performance of the Hydras in a majority of systems. The intent _is not_ to bilk customers, as has been stated earlier in this thread.
That's a good question, and one we discussed internally at length after it became clear that there was a recurring problem when including an inexpensive PC with a Hydra 8. We initially included the Diamondback standard with Hydra 8's in '03, though it was a real stretch for us at the H8's retail price.
The problem was that many who bought the H8 had high current amps, multiple components, and were using heavy gauge AC cords to components. Some customers were buying a high-current capable power distribution package that included a smallish 12 gauge AC cord (DiamondBack) to the wall--often with 10 or heavier gauge AC cords to components.
Initially, the Hydras failed in some applications only because the cord to the wall from the H8 was the smallest gauge cord in the system, yet was responsible for 5-6-7-8 components worth of current.
We made the decision in late '03, when we started to introduce the less expensive models, to have the dealer offer stock, but encourage system matching based on the electronics, existing power cords and system make up.
In our opinion, putting stock PC's with the Hydra gives a Halcro/PASS/ Bryston/Classe'/Atmasphere/Lamm(example) owner the idea that a simple stock PC is adequate to drive a Hydra that powres an entire system, when in our opinion, it's not. A 12 gauge cord (20A) is technically capable, but not in terms of performance. Especially if there are heavier gauge, specialty cords going to components.
Bottom line? The PC that is chosen for a Hydra, or most any other power distributor (in our opinion) should be _AT LEAST_ the equal of the highest performing PC powering a component/s.
In some cases, a dealer that knows someone is using high-quality PC's to electronics may encourage a high-quality PC for the Hydra, whether ours or another. They should however, always make it understood that a 12 gauge Belden type cord is an option.
FYI - I have been looking at the Hydra 2 for my front end, among others. Music Direct (No affiliation) mentions the complimentary "stock" cord on their website.
Maybe it should just be included in the package instead of having to be asked for???
>>>"Simply a broad staatement regarding Shunyata's propensity to grab as much as they can from the consumer."<<<
You are misinformed. Anyone that's ever taken the time to call and ask questions or have a dialogue knows we don't oversell_anything_. We don't need to. Quite the opposite is true, and remains a common business practice.Answering questions any way but honestly and with value in mind would reflect poorly on any company.
Your entire premise that we don't supply what's needed to operate a Hydra is mistaken. Had you taken the time to call or e-mail, we could have easily cleared this up. If we were out to "grab as much money as we can" we wouldn't have the reputation we've earned, which is anything but that of a money-grubbing company. I am disappointed you feel that way.
My apologies if the dealer did not offer you an option all our dealers should be aware of. If you e-mail me the dealers name, I can call to clear this up.
If any other questions come up, feel free to contact us directly.
Tvad. I meant nothing untowards. My position remains that a seller of components should supply what it needs to operate with as standard proceedure. That's all. Period. Without even some baseline item to compare to one has no refference.... apart from their own endeavors and the experience gained from them as the result. It's a poor statement to require one purchase additional items for operation of the gear at the onset. ...but as their bread and rests in power cord production, it is understandable. Just eletist... and a poor precedent. Hope none of the other manufacturers get together with that notion... sure would hate to buy tube gear without even OEM tubes in them. . .or components without stock power cords on them. I just like having a choice. I hope nothing I've posted was taken personally as it was not intended that way. Simply a broad staatement regarding Shunyata's propensity to grab as much as they can from the consumer. and again, I bought some of their stuff already and may buy more... so the answer to the question remains without resolution. Apart from this: You can't ever know until they present the item with what it takes to function right off the bat. Too bad. I simply hope they're listening. Sure couldn't hurt their PR.
Just as an FYI. There is a quality 12 gauge 20A cord included with Hydras upon the customers request. All dealers should be aware of this and inform the customer.
Often the reason better power cords on Hydras (or most other power distributors)offer improvement is that the cord to the wall is often supporting the current load for more than one component. It doesn't make sense to have high quality cords going to indvidual components if you have zip wire on the power center that feeds all or multiple electronics. There are certainly many options.
Tvad, I would love for you to hear my Harmonix power cord with your APL. And their Golden Performance ICs, as well. Oops, don't want to get off the power cord track. By the Summer I hope to give you a full report how they sound with the APL. Of course I don't have anything to compare them to. peace, warren
Tvad. got it. I suppose there would be far less threads if the underlying answer was always to be "..try it in your system if you really want to find out how good it is." ...and I do see the value of that statement. Really. but let's pause for a moment... ever count how much junk is out there to try? Lots.
Rather than take the 'scenic' route in buying/renting & trying just everything on the mkt. I use the threads I post to 'cull the herd'. Limit the area I need to prospect for gold in. Already in this post thanks to you, I now know getting a cord for the Hydra is easy enough. . . and it seems best suited to digital gear... for the most part. I tend to agree with that.... as Warren said. If in fact the amount of change that comes from the addition of the Python VX to my CDP is indicative of the type of change/improvement Hydras provide, perhaps one is in my future.
A fair amount of concern revolves around 'conditioning' for the amp... right now it's the vk500. The plan is to go to the vk600 at some point. That's a fair amount of current draw with eighter amp. With just a preamp & CDP, (I'm going to add a tuner & multiformat player later), I don't need tons of outlets... but will need ample wattage supply... and I'd not wish to 'change' the sonics any more than I have to which set me onto the 'passive' path rather than the 'active' one in conditioning.
It's likely just my inclination, and past notions from previous work experiences that have me seeing how much money to put where.... Like warrenh said... Putting the 'money' onto the cords attached to the components and not onto the conditioner would be what I think should be the best way to go. My analogy of the 'rims and old car' may not have been the best. All I am saying is "if it takes one to spend a likewise amount for power cords as it does for components or even near their price... just how good is the component? ...if it needs thousands of bucks of power cords to sound great... somethings wrong with that picture. There needs to be limits. there should also be options available to the consumer. Proper marketing strategy would be to allow for inclusion of a cord with any conditioner at a reduced price at point of sale. That's the way American retail has always worked... buy more - pay less.... it's the way of things. that won't change... and consumers, by and large, expect it.
As the tone of my post seems demonstrative add most forward, do not take it as such. It's my displeasure with being forced to accommodate peripherals to extract a level of quality & performance from highly regarded items in the first palce that continually irks me. It is not your sage advice, or thoughts I take issue with. Not at all. My position may change in the future if money no longer reamins quite so scarce, though it's not likely. all things considered, it is a shame that one needs not only to spend copius bucks for supposedly top flight gear, but additional bucks to have it perform as it should in the first place. Guess it's just like racing. When I raced bikes the saying was, "If you want to go faster the real race is which one crosses the finish line first... the scooter, or the money?" It costs a lot to go faster. In that hobby or this, there is a "point of diminishing returns'. I'll be happy to live right there. Right at that point. No further. For me, as you said about perspectives, "That would be my perspective'.
Tvad, and Warrenh - you're both right... I'll lean towards Warrnh's notion for the most part though...especially with conditioning devices. All your insights are most appreciated and very valuable to me... as always. Sincerely, I thank you.
I use a Hydra 2 on the rig in my tv room. My upstairs rig is an Audio Magic Eclipse which has proabably the only solution of totaling isolating digital from analog: uses two power cords (total and true isolation) that go to two dedicated outlets. What I'm getting at is that I use excellent power cords (one I purchased from Tvad, in fact) from the outlet to the AM. These cords, IMHO do not have to be the big bucks kind. But from conditioner to component? That's where I went for the "gold." Bottom line is to trust your ears. The more you know your rig and music, the better able you will be to hear what cords, conditioners are doing what. peace, warren
The main reason for a Hydra 2 is to take advantage of dedicated lines. Most people have dedicated lines and then plug most of their gear into a Hydra 6 or 8 or other conditioner and totally miss the benefits of the dedicated line. The Hydra 2 is good, but extremely expensive if you consider that you need two power cords per conditioner, per component.
While I have always been a great fan of Shunyata, I would highly suggest looking into the Jena Labs Fundamental Power One (I sell them). This is a single power cord with a built in line conditioner. It retails for less than a single Anaconda. It contains the same level of line conditioning that is in the $6300 Fundamental Power 6.1.
i own a hydra four and love it i use it with the diamonback cord and it is fine. i used it with a more expensive cord and it did work better but for the money difference i went with the diamondback cord and the hydra four and save money between the two twos and then two cords for me the diffence was not that great the money made the difference the hydra diffently have a black background and i use tubed equip. wouldn't be without my hydra and it only makes sense to use shunyata cords....
thanks. I suppose that's what burns my butt about having to add a better cord, or even 'a' cord is simply that . . .spending $500 to $1000, for conditioning devices and right away having to get into the pocket even deeper, yet again... and not by choice... by need. One would think makers of these items would supply at least something with the item.
I didn't know Radio Shack had that sort of cord... I understood it to be different from the 'IEC' types... and of course didn't give it much thought either.
I have a PS Audio UPC 200. Stock cord that came with it.... matter of fact that was a primary reason though not the sole reason, I got the UPC instead of a Hydra. Always felt I want to see what it does first.... then maybe make changes... just old fashioned I guess.
How would you say the Hydra 2, or 4, differs from the upc 200 given a like cord is on each of the units...?? I'm trying to decide wether or not to add either a Hydra 2, 4, or simply go with something like the Equitech unit that handles 1300 or 1600 watts... I use the UPC strickly for the amp in High Current mode... one pc on one outlet and the other on the second set of outlets... and I do like the improvement and punch a lot... but it is minimal - noticeable, but minimal... I did swap about some cords in place of the OEM cord... and Yep! It's better with better cords... It's also doubtful I'll be spending more for a cord than the unit it attaches to is worth. Doesn't make sens. A $500 item with a $750 cord on it? Ah, well... no. that'd kind of like putting 3000 bucks worth of rims and tires on a 1000 dollar car... to me anyway.
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