Interconnects, some have directional indicators, why?
I'm curious as to why some interconnects are directional? Is there a physical internal difference and do they generally sound better and cost more than non-directional cables? Thanks for your interest.
Just look at his website, then you’ll understand, why he can’t "see the forest through the trees." http://www.machinadynamica.com/index.html And he wants money for some of these bizzare things
has corrupted the Agon page 2 of this thread making the page difficult to read.
Please delete the post and re post the post without the last website link, or find another to post in its' place.
2channel8 A lot of theorizing. Very little empirical reporting.
as fate would have it I wrote the first tests for the FAA to determine whether satellite communications delay would interfere with pilot to controller radio voice communication. Everyone and his brother knows voice (audio) signals over copper wire travel around 80% the speed of light which as everyone knows is 186,000 miles per second. There are other delays - i.e., through voice switches and other devices but the primary delay is the total up and down delay for a synchronous satellite at orbit of around 24,000 miles. Since the satellite delay is known to be 240 ms that means the velocity of the audio signal (voice) through free space is 186,000 miles per second. The speed of light. Now what is the only thing that can travel at the speed of light in free space? Answer at 11.
kraftsound Linn K20 / Naim Naca 4 speaker cables are directional due to a burn in process at the factory. If they are connected the other way around they will adapt to that and after a couple of weeks they will sound the same as before. There is a small audible difference.
"If this is true also for other cables there is no actual inherit preferred direction in the cables As I mentioned in previous post, the direction of metal cable is physically made and the sound doesn't change with the length of time. I heard sounds of many 40-50 years old metal wires in vintage gears melts like butter (in sound) in 1~2 minutes."
HiFi Tuning of all people used to state that (their) fuses were not directional, that they break correctly no matter which direction they were inserted. Of course HIFi Tuning now admits they were incorrect and that their fuses are directional. Hence the diode symbol with the uh, arrow on their fuses today. Synergistic Reseach, in a similar vein, used to state that their fuses that were subject to one million volts ("quantum tunneling") would be not be directional, you know, due to the million volts. Now everyone and his brother knows that Synergistic Research fuses are dirctional, one assumes even Synergistic Research.
During one half-cycle of each of the frequencies that is
present the current corresponding to that frequency flows in via the positive
conductor and out via the negative conductor. During the next half cycle of
each of the frequencies that is present the current corresponding to that
frequency flows in via the negative conductor and out via the positive
conductor. The directions of the current in each conductor continue to
alternate during successive half-cycles.
… it occurs to me that some may interpret this to mean that
current flows in both directions at the same time, as a result of the multiple frequency
components that will be simultaneously present in a music signal.
To clarify, I did not mean that.
At any instant of time current will flow in one direction, corresponding
to the polarity (plus or minus) of the voltage that is being put out by the
signal source at that instant. The
contribution of each frequency component that is present to the total current
may make that total either larger or smaller at a particular instant depending
on which half-cycle of that frequency component is present at the particular
instant.
Hopefully that clarifies more than it confuses :-)
Your right timrhu, we do need comic relief every now an again. Sad part is, there are the gullible/ill-informed that actually are willing to spend money on the voodoo. Therefore making money for the many shysters that peddle some of the snake oil.
helmingway And now we have claims of photons travelling down pieces of copper. I guess that would be responsible for creating a truly holographic imaging experience. No wonder this topic always sparks controversy.
All electromagnetc waves are comprised of photons. I.e., not only is visible light on the electromagnetic spectrum made of photons, but also X- rays, gamma rays, HF radio waves, SHF radio waves - everything on the electromagnetic spectrum. Including audio signals. They’re all photons.
@geoffkait the cable manufacturer listens to cables made with the first wire taken off a new large spool of wire to determine which direction sounds best. The rest is easy, no?
"Something tells me you're just making stuff up here. I don't believe that for a second."
@geoffkait the cable manufacturer listens to cables made with the first wire taken off a new large spool of wire to determine which direction sounds best. The rest is easy, no?
Something tells me you're just making stuff up here. I don't believe that for a second.
The audio signal goes in with positive wire and backs out with negative wire.
That is not correct. During one half-cycle of each of the frequencies that is present the current corresponding to that frequency flows in via the positive conductor and out via the negative conductor. During the next half cycle of each of the frequencies that is present the current corresponding to that frequency flows in via the negative conductor and out via the positive conductor. The directions of the current in each conductor continue to alternate during successive half-cycles. Meanwhile, energy is transferred in just one direction, from source to load (assuming the load is resistive), with the alternating flow of current through both conductors being essential to that process.
BTW, the "positive conductor" is often referred to as the "signal conductor," and the "negative conductor" is often referred to as the "return conductor" or "ground conductor," but the electrons and the energy that is being transferred don’t care about names.
And now we have claims of photons travelling down pieces of copper. I guess that would be responsible for creating a truly holographic imaging experience. No wonder this topic always sparks controversy.
+danvignau The shield should be connected only at the source end so that any interference that is picked up by it is reverted to the source and not transferred to the input device. This lowers the susceptibility to interference from electromagnetic signals in the surrounding and therefore improves the signal integrity. One exception is microphones where the shield should be connected at both ends so that the casing of the mic is grounded. The same applies to turntables/tone arms and battery operated equipment if no separate ground connection is used.
The shield can thus be considered as an extension of the source units cabinet.
Atmosphere's quote above perfectly explains how directional wiring would hurt the sound. The current is alternating back and forth, not flowing downstream. His diode analogy is spot on: if the current flows better in one direction, it is restricted in the other; therefore, directional wiring will absolutely make the sound worse. The argument that just grounding one end sounds reasonable... or would, if anyone would explain why the grounded end hooks to the source, rather than the input of the amp or preamp. Of course, no one has mentioned this.
Linn K20 / Naim Naca 4 speaker cables are directional due to a burn in process at the factory. If they are connected the other way around they will adapt to that and after a couple of weeks they will sound the same as before. There is a small audible difference.
If this is true also for other cables there is no actual inherit preferred direction in the cables as such but they should always be used in the same directional orientation.
According to van den Hul there is always a burn-in time required every time you move a cable since that upsets the contact between the individual strands. This makes sense and is logical.
So in general I would humbly suggest: Connect the shield at the source end if your using balanced or pseudo balanced interconnects and leave the cables alone. As soon as you move them and/or reverse the direction they will require a new burn-in period.
IMHO this is what people are experiencing as any talk about that crystalline structure in copper or amorphous structures in isolation should to some noticeable extent be inherently asymmetrical does not make any sense at all to me as a physicist. Atoms rearrange themselves all the time when acted upon by physical forces such as mechanical and/or electrical forces and will settle into their lowest possible energy state according to the laws of thermo dynamics after a while...
timrhu Who inspects the cable to ensure the crystals are properly aligned and then decides which way is best for optimum signal flow? And after this is determined, who, at the factory ensures the cable has the proper orientation? Something smells fishy to me here.
the cable manufacturer listens to cables made with the first wire taken off a new large spool of wire to determine which direction sounds best. The rest is easy, no?
stanwal Ask Pierre S. He spend hours arranging the orientation of his cables. It may as I have forgotten how it sounded like by the time he gets through. Just kidding Pierre
I stepped on one of Pierre's cables at the show and lived to tell about it. 😬
Ask Pierre S. He spend hours arranging the orientation of his cables. It may as I have forgotten how it sounded like by the time he gets through. Just kidding Pierre
Sorry to report, atmasphere, the dude from Audioquest was actually
referring to folks like you who insist that any directionality in the
sound is due to the shield and who keep insisting there is not such
thing as wire directionality whether it be fuses, cables, interconnects
what have you. Mr. Low, in fact, is quite outspoken in this regard.
Maybe you better read the article again.
Please refer to my original post regarding this ridiculous topic, in which I was careful to include this text:
The above quote is from Audioquest and shows how its the shield
connection that is causing the directionality, despite their awareness
of how the crystals initially align in their wire.
We've built
amps with Audioquest wire before. At the time of installation,
Audioquest made no mention whatsoever about directionality.
And also:
If that is not the case and somehow Audioquest was trying to make a
point about wire being directional and ***nothing else*** than this paragraph
isn't their best marketing.
Emphasis added.
Again, if a wire really has directionality (a **wire** mind you, not a cable) in an AC circuit it will be demonstrating diode characteristics, which will induce a DC voltage at the output. Since this does not happen, again (since I am repeating myself) we know that in fact whether the crystals in a wire have a particular orientation is moot; the wire itself has no directionality whatsoever.
I am sure this is why no instruction accompanied the hookup wire we obtained from Audioquest.
Who inspects the cable to ensure the crystals are properly aligned and then decides which way is best for optimum signal flow? And after this is determined, who, at the factory ensures the cable has the proper orientation? Something smells fishy to me here.
sorry to report, atmasphere, the dude from Audioquest was actually referring to folks like you who insist that any directionality in the sound is due to the shield and who keep insisting there is not such thing as wire directionality whether it be fuses, cables, interconnects what have you. Mr. Low, in fact, is quite outspoken in this regard. Maybe you better read the article again.
Let’s summarize, shall we? copper and any metal wire is direction, both in measurement and in listening. If there is a difference is sound for shielded cables of any type due only to the direction of the sheld the manufacturer of that cable would be well advised to consider the directionality of the conductor as well, you know, in order to acheive maximum results. What cable manufacturer - unless he's lived in a cave somewhere for the past 30 years -wouldn’t do that? By the same token, any cable manufacturer who doesnt employ cryogenic treatment is living in the eighties. Its really a question of staying competitive, at least for the high end. I actually don’t care about mid fi particularly.
Uh, I don’t think so. That was kind of the whole point of the Audioquest
dude’s article on wire directionality. You know, the article you
apparently mis-read. Besides, if a shield was connected at both ends of
the cable you couldn’t really blame cable directionality on the shield,
could you? Please don’t try to tell me it has something to do with the
contact the male RCA connector makes with the female end.
You misread or did not read the question to which I was responding. He was asking specifically about cables that are not marked with arrows. My answer was correct.
Nor did I misread the Audioquest quote FWIW. While it does mention directionality of conductors, the quote is careful to also mention that they hook them up in such a way that the shield is only connected at the 'correct' end of the cable. Hence the only conclusion that can be drawn remains that the shield is the important bit since the manufacturer took the guesswork out of the 'directionality' of the wire.
For single
ended interconnects that do not have directional arrows, how can
you determine at which end the the shield is connected?
Or if the shield is connected at both ends or neither?
Take apart the plastic covering at the end of the interconnect?
Thanks,
If the end is molded plastic, not sure how you could check. You might ask the manufacture how the cable is made up.
As a rule if arrows are not on the ICs the printed labeling on the cable is used for direction. Direction is with the wording on the cable from source to load.
Just make sure the lettering is running in the same direction for both the L&R channel ICs. Listen to them closely in one direction and then flip them both and listen to them again in the other direction. IF YOU can hear a difference pick the direction that sounds the best to you.
For listening material use music with a strong solo female voice. Instruments, I find a solo playing of a piano works good.
IF the ICs are made from stranded wire I doubt you will hear a difference, though you might.
Solid core wire ICs is easier to hear for differences. Especially silver soild core ICs.
"@jetter Usually the shield is connected at both ends."
Uh, I don’t think so. That was kind of the whole point of the Audioquest dude’s article on wire directionality. You know, the article you apparently mis-read. Besides, if a shield was connected at both ends of the cable you couldn’t really blame cable directionality on the shield, could you? Please don’t try to tell me it has something to do with the contact the male RCA connector makes with the female end.
It wouldn’t surprise me if under many circumstances a symmetrically designed cable (i.e., a cable having no shield or having a shield that is connected at both ends) were to exhibit directional properties that have nothing to do with the inherent directionality of wire that has been alleged.
A common example of a symmetrically designed cable is a 75 ohm coaxial S/PDIF cable. I would expect such a cable to have small but very possibly measurable differences in VSWR (Voltage Standing Wave Ratio) depending on which way it is connected, due to a combination of soldering differences, mechanical tolerances, small impedance discontinuities in the wire itself, etc. The direction in which it is connected could therefore affect signal reflections and ultimately jitter at the point of D/A conversion.
Similarly, the direction in which a supposedly symmetrically designed analog audio cable is connected could affect energy at RF frequencies that is coupled into or out of the components it is connecting. With the possibility of effects at audible frequencies arising in various ways, such as via intermodulation effects or parasitic diode effects occurring within the components. An extreme example of RF affecting audible frequencies being the many reports that have been seen here and elsewhere over the years of people hearing radio stations when listening to phono sources.
If one has found a symmetrically designed cable to exhibit directional properties, and has verified that the observed directionality is consistent and repeatable across multiple trials, and is not due to extraneous variables such as differences in the warmup state of the equipment, before attributing the difference to inherent directional properties of the wire it seems to me that one must first establish that the cable is in fact symmetrical. And I would feel safe in asserting that no cable is symmetrical to an infinite degree.
So would it be the deviations from perfect symmetry of the cable that are responsible for the perceived difference, or would it be the inherent directional properties of wire that have been alleged by some? As I said here in a recent fuse-related thread:
... it seems to me that audio is somewhat unique in that there are countless technical variables that can be cited for which it is not readily possible to define a quantitative threshold separating what may potentially be audible in some systems from what is unquestionably insignificant. In the absence of that kind of quantitative perspective there is essentially no limit to what a perceived or claimed sonic effect can be attributed to. Or misattributed to.
So, this begs the question: will the sound improve if the amplifier is
placed lower than the source components so the electrons could travel
more freely down hill following the direction in the cable? This might
explain why most serious audiophiles put their amplifiers on the lowest
shelf on the rack. Just wondering...
If you wait for the electrons to carry the signal to the amp from the source there is a good chance you would have time to shower, shave, and have a cup of coffee before you would hear a single note through your speakers.
The audio signal travels down the wire in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source to the load.
So, this begs the question: will the sound improve if the amplifier is placed lower than the source components so the electrons could travel more freely down hill following the direction in the cable? This might explain why most serious audiophiles put their amplifiers on the lowest shelf on the rack. Just wondering...
atmasphere "I have to assume that Geoff used the quote above to make the point of the shield being the driver behind directionality in cables. If that is not the case and somehow Audioquest was trying to make a point about wire being direction and nothing else than this paragraph isn’t their best marketing. But that isn’t how it reads to me."
I wish i could say kudos to your detective work but alas, I’ve already explained all that as did Mr. Low from Audioquest. And you assume wrong. Remember, when you Ass-u-me something you make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman. 😬
Methinks there’s a good possibility you’ve psyched yourself out on this whole fuse and wire directionality thing. I for one don’t see what all the fuss is since any yutz with ears should be able hear the difference in direction of any fuse or any unshielded cable. You guys are making this much more difficult than it has to be, not that I mind. It’s kinda fun. 😃
mapman geoffkait@mapman, i suggest you get some Spock ears. you could probably use them.
to which Mapman responded,
"We all probably do actually.
I’d bet anything they would have a clear and huge effect on what anyone hears. Unless deaf to start with. Unlike orientation of copper crystals in wires. My dog told me so. For now I will merely just cup my hands behind my ears and enjoy. Try it you’ll like it."
Would you believe Spock ears was my very first product, but it was overcome by events. i wish i had some NOS I could send you. 😃
I actually don’t like hands behind the ears as it exaggerates certain frequencies in an unnatural manner but what’s intriguing is that you would assume I never heard of it. 😩
There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most
audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax,
negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached
to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable’s directionality.
Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there,
going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on
the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting
conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where
it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of
controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we
controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were
also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to
ground.
The above quote is from Audioquest and shows how its the shield connection that is causing the directionality, despite their awareness of how the crystals initially align in their wire.
We've built amps with Audioquest wire before. At the time of installation, Audioquest made no mention whatsoever about directionality.
The idea that a wire can be directional has many of the same problems as that of a fuse being directional. In both cases one is faced with the same problem: if the wire or fuse is directional then it conducts better in one direction that another, ergo its acting like a diode.
If that is the case then we will see a DC voltage (either positive or negative depending on which way the 'diode' is connected) at the output of the wire or fuse and since no such voltage appears, we can only assume that in fact the wire or fuse is not in fact a diode.
Generally when things act like diodes that aren't supposed to, its where there is a connection and not somewhere in the middle of a conductor. Crystal radios work on this principle. Special solders (known as 'eutectic') are used to minimize diode effects in the solderjoint (and also to prevent cold solderjoints which are sort of the same thing).
I have to assume that Geoff used the quote above to make the point of the shield being the driver behind directionality in cables. If that is not the case and somehow Audioquest was trying to make a point about wire being direction and nothing else than this paragraph isn't their best marketing. But that isn't how it reads to me.
I’d bet anything they would have a clear and huge effect on what anyone hears. Unless deaf to start with. Unlike orientation of copper crystals in wires. My dog told me so. For now I will merely just cup my hands behind my ears and enjoy. Try it you'll like it.
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