I recently discovered the benefits of isolation. Don't know how many of you are familiar with
Barry Diament's
recommendations for his hip joints. The recommendation for the economical DIY set up worked well for my stereo; (lightly inflated bike innertubes, wooden egg holders supporting stainless steel balls).
A month ago I bought Isoacoustic Oreo's. 3 per component (weight appropriate) and was very impressed...at first. After several days of settling my music sounded dull and lifeless. I reread
the optimal weight recommendations, re-calibrated weight limits with temporary improvements. To my disappointment I realized the Oreo's could only be compressed (especially after the suction seal was formed between them and the component or platform the component sat on). Sure they rocked in all directions, but they didn't glide in all directions. Only horizontal isolation was taking place so I coupled the Oreo's with Barry's economic hip joints which has greatly improved the SQ. I'm loving it but I still feel there's room for improvement. Mainly because I own the Hfiman HE-6SE HP's and I run them through my power amp's speaker taps. So I want Barry's upgraded hip joints under my amp. I'm interested in Ingress Audio's vibration isolation rollerblocks.
http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php I've looked up info about their level 2's and 3's but specifics on their differences aren't given. I know Barry says the blocks should be machined smooth to a certain degree. I left a message with Ingress, but I'm impatient and wondering if perhaps the level 2's aren't as smooth as the 3's. The smoother, the greater the improvements.
My question is does anyone know the differences between their Level 2 and Level 3 rollerblocks?
Just as a partial solution for now until I can get two more sets of the v2 blocks.
I used my maple blocks, installed 3 spikes underneath them which also meant by adjusting the back spike I can adjust the angle of the Maggies. These spikes sit in Herbies Small Gliders on the carpeted floor.
For now the Maggies sit on the maple blocks on top of some extremely solid composite rubber like material ( no idea what it is exactly, I "acquired" it years ago from some packing inside industrial equipment I was installing, never know when you might need something!). This stuff worked wonders under my sub so thought it was worth a shot.
Quite impressed with results so far but be interesting to see what the v2 accomplish in between the Maggies and the maple blocks.
@geoffkait when using springs, how does one deal with uneven loads? My pre's CG is way off to one side towards the rear. Does one just add another spring under the heaviest portion?
@geoffkait, by "secrets" I meant how your springs differ from the commonly-available, off-the-shelf springs. I doubt you make them yourself, but you do cryogenetically freeze them. Anything else you care to divulge? ;-) Not that I expect you to; I wouldn’t!
In one of his video (viewable on You Tube), Max Townshend demonstrates the difference between his Seismic Pod and a bare spring of the same rate. Very interesting.
We import Ingress footers into the U.K., available for free test drives if interested.
Our best set up so far, consists of three Ingress cup and rollers with titanium balls arranged in an equilateral triangle around the centre of mass of the component sitting on top of a 30mm thick plate of slate which is cut square on plan. This in turn sits on 12 inch diameter inner tubes inflated to around 3 psi. We use a digital gauge. We have found tubes by Specialized to keep their inflation better than some other brands.
Result: massive improvements in sound quality, one of the best and cheapest upgrades you can make imo. We sell other brands of better known isolators but they don’t come close to this set up. If you are concerned about losing air in the tube overtime then you could use something like IsoAcoustics Orea’s but they don’t work as well as the tubes in this set up and only cost £3 each. Geoff’s springs might be the answer under the slate platform, I will try.
We also use Ingress footers in a double cup arrangement under our solid maple audio furniture to further isolate. If your speakers don’t have an effective isolation system (like spikes for example) then the Ingress footers should be used there as well. We have no need because the Boenicke speakers we sell have a built in swing base system which comprises of a metal bridge which is hung from cables with a ceramic roller ball and bronze cup arrangement built into the front underside of the speakers. This works a treat.
Btw we are looking into cementing on another valve on the outside of the tubes so it would then be possible to inflate without moving the equipment.
My springs are more cost effective than the pods. Besides, I don’t advertise or recommend my springs for speakers, anyway, except medium-size speakers and subwoofers (low center of gravity). My springs are primarily for amps, turntables, CD players and subwoofers. I suspect most of the cost of the Townshend pods is the attached framework that allows the pods to be widely spaced underneath speakers with a high center of gravity,
Even when speakers ARE isolated, front end components are still subject to low frequency vibration from the floor. My springs allow someone to *cost effectively* isolate everything -except big tall heavy speakers. Actually, a large 2’x2’ maple board under the speakers will solve the problem using my springs for speakers with a high center of gravity. The 2’x2’ board allows a wide pattern for my springs, thus building up the lateral support needed for stability. Problem solved!
Geoff, thanks for info, do you recommend three or four springs?
Stacore maybe the current reference standard in isolation? What do you think? I know somebody that has a few of them in the U.K. Costly though. Aeris Cerat were using them at Munich this year. But I think Ingress/slate platform/spring would be much more cost effective at around £250 complete per set. Stacore £5k.
Re Stacore -- I'm not sure I see anything new or particularly innovative in their approach. The basic isolation is passive pneumatic which is well established and the top plate is slate -- which some like, others see as problematic. They've put it together in a nice and easy to use package but I'm disappointed by the lack of detailed measurements so we can see how they really compare with alternatives in the 1-10Hz range. If anyone has these can you post a link -- I couldn't find them on the Stacore site
If we really want to talk top end I'm a big fan and user of the Taiko Tana -- their modified Herzan. Here the top plate is Panzerholz which also has its detractors -- really there are no simple answers!
It’s easier to get better “action” for the set-up with four springs, all things being equal. By “action” I mean how easy it is to put the top plate and component into smooth vertical up and down motion by bouncing the top plate manually. For moderately light components I would preload the springs with granite or bluestone. My Cryo Baby Prometheans are rated at around 40-50 lb for four springs. Add a spring for every ten pounds over 50 lb. My Super Stiff Springs are rated at around 80-120 lb for four springs.
My springs are designed to achieve better performance (circa 2-3 Hz) than almost any pneumatic device. And there is no leakage issue, no guessing at the air pressure, and no friction or damping issues, either, with my springs as there are with pneumatic designs. When you think about it it’s kind of a no brainer. 😳
I used to buy bluestone 18”x18”x3” slabs at Home Depot for around $20 each. Dunno about availability in other locations.
Everything you never wanted to know about bluestone,
Bluestone is quarried in western New Jersey, Pennsylvania and eastern New York.[15]It is also quarried in the Canadian Appalachians near Deer Lake in Western Newfoundland.[16]The Pennsylvania Bluestone Association has 105 members, the vast majority of them quarriers.[17]Bluestone fromPennsylvaniaandNew Yorkis sandstone defined asfeldspathicgreywacke. The sand-sized grains from which bluestone is constituted were deposited in theCatskill Deltaduring the Middle to UpperDevonian Periodof thePaleozoic Era, approximately 370 to 345 million years ago. The Catskill Delta was created from runoff from theAcadian Mountains("Ancestral Appalachians").[18]This delta ran in a narrow band from southwest to northeast and today provides the bluestone quarried from theCatskill MountainsandNortheast Pennsylvania. The term "bluestone" is derived from a deep-blue-colored sandstone first found inUlster County, New York.[citation needed]It can, however, appear in many other hues, mostly shades of grays and browns. Bluestone quarrying is of particular value to the economy ofSusquehanna County, Pennsylvania. TheStarrucca Viaduct, finished in 1848, is an example of Pennsylvania bluestone as a building material.[17]
The other, lesser known, type of American 'bluestone' is a blue-tinted limestone abundant in theShenandoah ValleyofVirginia. It is a limestone formed during theOrdovicianPeriod approximately 450 to 500 million years ago, at the bottom of a relatively shallow ocean that covered what is todayRockingham County, Virginia. The limestone that accumulated there was darker in color than most other limestone deposits because it was in deeper waters exposed to less light. The darker blue color resulted in limestone from this region being dubbed bluestone and with two sequences measuring about 10,000 ft thick, it gives the area one of the largest limestone deposits in the world.[19]The stone eventually fades from a deep blue to a light grey after prolonged exposure to sun and rain. Given the abundance of the stone in the Rockingham County area, the first settlers used it as foundations and chimneys for their houses. WhenJames Madison Universitywas built, the local bluestone was used to construct the buildings because of its high quality and cultural heritage.[20]
So Bluestone is a type of limestone, so granular in nature. Slate on the other hand has fissibility, which means it’s layered, that might mean its good at damping vibrations? In tests it seems that way. Geoff thanks for info.
Slate actually appears to have much in common with bluestone. To whit,
Slate is a fine-grained, foliated, homogeneous metamorphic rock derived from an original shale-type sedimentary rock composed of clay or volcanic ash through low-grade regional metamorphism. It is the finest grained foliated metamorphic rock.Wikipedia
I tried a slab of marble back in the 80's; it rang too much for my liking. Perhaps with a sheet of constrained layer damping between it and another slab of something with different resonance characteristics would be good.
When granite or bluestone or whatever is placed on springs it’s isolated right along with the component. Also, when the slabs are two or three inches thick they will not ring unless you strike them with a hammer. Even then they go thunk! Also, don’t strike them with a hammer whilst music is playing. The great advantages of such materials is their stiffness and mass.
I bought the Gaia II's for my 60 lb Monitor Audio Gold's. Experimented connecting them to the metal speaker base's then directly to the speaker. Found they sound more focused when attached directly to the speaker. Since my floor is carpeted with a basement beneath I then tried elevating them on wood slabs with Barry's economic hip joints underneath, but they sounded kind of dull. Next I sat the speakers on ceramic tile slabs (smooth side down) with the economic hip joints underneath. Sounds great! The treble sparkle and shimmer is back along with focus and improved timbre!
Very interesting thread, albeit I’m two years late... machina dynamica website seems short of resources (I cannot see some photos). Geoff are you still behind your business? Might be interested in your springs.
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