I Feel Overwhelmed....Please Help

Yup. Macrojack is rite. I just bought Aesthetux IO Sigantue with duel power supplies and Clearaudio Goldfinger V.2d.

Still, a newbie without audiophile friends is going to have a hard time going it on their own. I say check out the dealers first, he could be pleasantly surprised.

Oops, time to go, I need to go pick up cables at my dealer and take the loaner back. ;-)

Dave

There are wolves in storefronts too. And the notion that you're going to keep gear still prevails in me even though I've disproved that belief hundreds of times. There's always something new or different. You can bet that Chap_cat is replacing "keepers" right now.

You don't lose money with dealer source gear, IF you love it. Something that you're not going to sell is worth what it's worth. Resale is irrelevant with keepers.

That said, experienced audiophiles should feel pretty comfortable with used stuff here on A'gon. I'm reluctant to send a newbie to the used market. There are a few wolves here on A'gon.

Dave

It's a cold fact that somebody is going to take a depreciation hit on most new equipment purchases and you can bet the queen's keyster it will be the original purchaser. This is reason enough to avoid buying new equipment at retail. If you can get a sufficient discount on new gear, that might make it worthwhile. Or, if you can get into something at a very low original purchase amount, say $170, then you stand to lose little but you still lose something. In the case of well researched used purchases, loss can be kept at or near zero. Bear in mind that resale prices are directed by street price rather than list price. If an item is readily available at thirty per cent discounts then you can look for the resale value to be correspondingly reduced. One of the best examples I know of is the famous Talon Khorus.

Since you have a somewhat limited budget and no prospects of increasing it in the next couple of years, I would expect you to be very cautious about missteps.
And with new, dealer sourced gear, you will lose money even if you love the stuff, although the loss might be delayed by years.
There are members here who are dealers, members who worship their dealer and members who avoid dealers. They all have advice for you.

I think you need to be careful of dealers, but I think you'll find that there are some great ones out there. IF, that's a big "if", you find a good one they can save you lots of searching and speed you toward your goals.

Dave

Macrojack said: Feeling overwhelmed is going to cost you money. It will cause you to run straight into the arms of a waiting dealer. An audio dealer is just like a card dealer. His job is to take advantage of the difference between what he knows and what you know. The benefit available to you on Audiogon is the option of bypassing the dealer and being self taught with guidance from us. The problem that you will encounter with us is determining who has good advice and who is merely recommending what they like.

This is the reason I am here on this forum. Most people here have nothing to gain other than some satisfaction that they feel by helping out a fellow hobbyist. I have some cynicism about merchants in general, and I work in retail as well. I very much appreciate each and every one of you that has responded for your advice. I intend to research all components that have been listed if possible, and I will listen to all that I can when I go to the big city to audition equipment day after tomorrow. My gut feeling is that most any component with a price tag of over $1000 should be an improvement in sound over what I have now. Also, going used is certainly not out of the question.

Macrojack,

You are most welcome. I just ordered my Nuforce Icon today before the $199 intro price expires. I also ordered a pair of the 2M speaker cables.

For anyone interested in this unit, check out the review on 6Moons:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce7/icon.html

Enjoy,

TIC

I own a pair of KG 5.5. I have used many different components along the way to get the best sound from them. Proceed, Classe, NAD, and Arcam to name a few. Surprisingly the most enjoyable sound by far is with a Linn Classik CD/Integrated amp. I think the amp is rated 30W or so at 8 ohms.

Reubent - That sounds like the perfect solution. I was unaware of this device but I think I'll buy one just to see what it does. Thanks.

"I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it "

On a 3k budget ?

Tube integrateds that come to mind within your budget (used) are the Manley Stingray and I have a friend that I believe is selling an Audio Note Soro in the near future.

Chap cat,

Wanna try something completely different that may save you about $2800? Check out the Nuforce Icon Integrated Amp/DAC.

The Nuforce Icon is a 12 watt/channel integrated amp based on Nuforce's digital amp technology. It contains a passive pre-amp, 12 watt/ch. amplifier, USC DAC and headphone amp. It also has RCA inputs for connecting additional sources such as your CD changer.

The Nuforce Icon is currently available direct from Nuforce via Amazon.com. It has an introductory price of $199 for the silver finish and $249 for other colors.

Considering your speakers are very efficient, the 12 watts/channel should be plenty for most people. Additionally, since the Icon has a built-in USB DAC, you can connect your PC/MAC source directly to the Icon via a UBS cable. You could also connect your current CD changer via the additional RCA inputs and connect your headphones to the headphone output. This is a tiny do-everything machine that might be all you ever need. It could be an excellent choice if you plan to rip all of your CDs to your PC/MAC in lossless format. Heck, you could get rid of everything except your PC/MAC and the Icon and have an extremely compact system that may sound good enough to satisfy you for years to come.

BTW, the Icon uses an RJ45 jack for speaker cables and the cables are supplied. However the supplied cables are only one meter long. If you need longer cables, a 2 meter pair is available from Nuforce for $30.

I'm buying one just to play with it. If it is as good as the reviews say, I may end up using it for a few years as my primary 2-channel system connected to a pair of hi-efficiency speakers and PC.

Enjoy,

TIC

I think that cables are a concern for anyone trying to remove harshness, but he should look to used cables here on A'gon.

Dave

You should checkout the ps audio trio c-100 control amp and the oppo dv-983h universal player. This will run you a total of 1500 new with warranty and the value is off the charts! That will leave 1500 for whatever you choose next.

Blindjim said:

" Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time"

I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage; however, I understand that many think this is "fun" and a meaningful hobbiest activity. I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.

Dave

I've been where you are .

If you can , copy somebody's rig . It is an easy foolproof way to start , if they value the same things in sound that you do ! A few emails back and forth will tell . This is how I started after making some exspensive mistakes !

If you don't , then listen to as many different things as you can . Don't be afraid to take notes , literally . Ask as many questions as you can and take note of 'all' of the equipment being listened to . There is a certain synergy or compatability between different pieces and manufacterers equipment . In other words , just because something sounds great at the dealers does not mean it will sound the same at your home .

I would consentrate on amplification and source with your 3k . An integrated amp will be cheaper in the beginning .
You will have one less power cord , one less set of interconnects and one less chassis . And you won't have to worry how the preamp will work with your amp , that synergy thing again . If tubes , I would suggest that you find one that is self/auto biasing . This will be easier to use with less maintaince . Be aware that some biasing procedures can be quite involved and somewhat dangerous for a novice .

I would try to spend the majority of your money on the source . Don't try to get fancy here . Look for something that has a good reliability record . CDP's can be finicky and a real PITA !

"Do not" spend a bunch of money on cables now !!!

"Do" buy used , if you can . When you want to sell , you will not loose nearly as much as if you had bought new . If done right , you can move in and out of equipment for no more than the cost of shipping charges .

You say that you want tubes . I would then recommend a Primaluna Prologue2 integrated amp . It is self/auto biasing , can use a bunch of different kinds of tubes to change the sound to different types , has 4 inputs and can be had used for less than 1k . It is a nice piece that will allow you to experiment to find out what you like in the tube world .

For a CDP you may want to look at Cary . They made a piece that had both a tubed output and a SS output . This would allow you to test the waters on tubes in this area as well . I think that you would be able to pick one up used for the remainder of your budget .

Remeber to have fun and enjoy yourself !

Good luck .

Feeling overwhelmed is going to cost you money. It will cause you to run straight into the arms of a waiting dealer. An audio dealer is just like a card dealer. His job is to take advantage of the difference between what he knows and what you know. The benefit available to you on Audiogon is the option of bypassing the dealer and being self taught with guidance from us. The problem that you will encounter with us is determining who has good advice and who is merely recommending what they like. I recommended an OPPO 980H DVD player for a digital source. I've owned high dollar and well reviewed digital equipment in the past and bought this thing because it was suggested by a guy who sold me some excellent tubed monoblocks. I didn't really believe what he was telling me about how musical it is but I took the plunge anyway figuring I could use a video player and these were known to be good for that. Result of this purchase is the sale of my DAC. The OPPO is phenomenal.
As I stated above, it will cost you only $170 and it will resell in 5 minutes for $140 if you find it disappointing.
If it proves to be what I'm saying it is, then you have a lot more money free for other upgrades.
I recommended the Melos SHA-1 because your headphones are important to you and I suggested the Ayre or Rowland amp because both are very musical and depreciation proof. You'll get your tube sound from the SHA and you'll get fuss-free performance out of either power amp.
Furthermore, you will be spending only slightly more than half your money. That means you can consider upgrading the speakers.
If you want newer stuff, consider an Eastern Electric CD player. It has tubes, a headphone jack and a volume control.
If CD is going to be your only source, you won't need a preamp at all. Just go straight from your player to your amp(s).

Personally, I like the idea of going front to back, myself. Source, preamp, amp, speakers... either way however leads to a positive end, eventually.

Interjecting a new source, int. or pre & amp is going to be quite a shift in performance! Adding on the necessary cabling after that will also be quite an addition.

I think you are right in looking at just a source/CDP & an integrated amp... for now. Having a source which provides all of the info the signal has right off is way important! That's what the rest of the ritg is going to be working with afterall.

The deal between tubes and SS is simple.... SS is no better or worse than would be hollow state subjectively speaking. Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time.

The main thing is toting along your speakers if at all possible... or arranging an in home trial. That part comes only after you are certain you wish to deal with ... whomever you pick of the dealers you meet.

I don't see any of your listed possibilities as bad ones either. I would say though if you are in no rush or that $3K isn't burning a hole in your pocket to go slower. A CDP seems in order though and Rega makes some good ones with good reviews. I'd get as good as I could there for now be it Rega or otherwise.

In fact all of your short list is well represented in the 'preowned' mkt as well and that would allow you to get better return on your available funds/budget... unless you gotta have brandy spankity new, used components sure helps one escalate the preformance level of one's rig.

In conjunction with a resolving source, ASL, Prima Luna, and with a bit of tube rolling, a Jolita int could do just what you are looking for... and if preowned, both power cords and cabling additions will be avaialable too.... and the wires are sure important. They are the icing so to speak, on the cake.

Tote your speakers, ask questions about warranty & other policies, look at the cabling being used too. Listening to $2K to $3K components connected with $2K worth of wires is something I'd like to know up front... also see if they're using a power conditioner during the audition. I've overlooked that last bit in the past myself... and it's a very common practice to use them during presentations.

So are aftermarket footers, iso cups, and these too make an impact on the sound.. so do open your eyes when auditioning so you know what's what. I'm sure you're astute enough here, but I've been overly zealous in the past myself when being on the verge of a whole new rig!

Again.. I would just go listen... look... ask... and get a nice CDP first.

Come back in a few weeks with it and plug it into the power train you like most and go from there... You've two known quanities then, speakers and source.

Good luck, take care, and just listen to the music that gets your attention.

06-15-08: Digsmithd said:
"Hey dc step let us know how you like your new parker!!"

I love the pictures and the CD I've been sent (much more than's on the site), BUT I won't take delivery until late this year or early in '09. It's being used in some recordings and Ken's going to install a Fishmann Aura pickup system. With luck, I'll fly to New York and go with Ken to Fishman's for the installation and tracking recordings to optimize the Aura. I've got my fingers crossed that Frisell will use it in a recording also.

It'll be a busy guitar until it comes home to retire at my abode.

Dave

Can you bring your speakers to the dealer? If you are going to buy they might set them up for you...it won't be your room but it would be a good start.

Two of the dealers require appointments, so when I call, I will ask about this. Good idea.

Chap Cat

Can you bring your speakers to the dealer? If you are going to buy they might set them up for you...it won't be your room but it would be a good start.

Dcstep said: "adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot."

Right after reading this piece of advice, I went down to the local WallyWorld and bought a 5'x 8' heavy rug and placed it centered between the two speakers and a couple feet out. Now I hear tighter bass and clearer mids with less bright highs, and my room looks a little better too. Although it sounds better, I am totally psyched about getting some new audio gear.

Has anybody had any experience with the hybrid amps like the Jolida JD 1501RC. What about this amp matched with the Jolida JD 100A Tube Compact Disc Player. At just under $1000 for the CD player, and the amp at $825, the price sounds good.

If you go tubes look at a good used Primaluna PL 1or 2. Great bang for the buck (around $900 used) easy to use very nice sounding and you can vary the tubes easily.

Hey dc step let us know how you like your new parker!!Your right on the money,everyones offering there knowledge and experience.Ive owned both tube and ss,The band wagon only gos so many miles.Making decisions early in your budget range are so many.Try on informitve buying then move up.Klipsch are horned?tube integrated with (CAYIN,PATHOs)Creek,sim amp(ss) As well as cd player.Keep us informed of your progression!

The Pathos Classic One Mark III isn't on your list but they show up here every so ofter in the $1650-1900 area, good solid tube integrated. That should leave you enough to get a good CDP. Check out the views in the archives here.
Just a thought.

Since you have great headphones that you love, consider a Melos SHA-1. It was originally created to function as a world class headphone amp and wound up becoming a Stereophile Class A preamp as well. There's one for sale right now for $450.
The OPPO 980H universal player sells brand new for $169.95 and Amazon will sell it to you with free shipping. This unit defies all assumptions about price/performance ratios. I'm using one as my primary digital in a very high performance system. It will meet and exceed your needs.
That leaves power amplifier and I'm really inclined to recommend something very sexy and solid state like a Rowland Model One or an Ayre V-3. Both would be excellent and you should be able to buy either for about $1100. Spend a bit more on conservatively priced interconnects and cables and you will be shocked at how much better your Klipsch now sound.

But ---- you probably have enough money left over to look into a speaker upgrade. Vandersteen would be nice.

I don't see anything that makes me wretch, so I'll say to let your ears be your guide. Unfortunately you'll be hearing all of these in an unfamiliar system. It's really hard to evaluate CDPs outside of your own system. Amps driving anything other than your own speakers will be misleading.

So, what do you do? Evaluate the dealers and see which ones you trust the most after you meet them. Before you go down, review all you can about the amps and CDP. When you get there focus on apparent build quality and pricing. If someone gives you crap about you existing system, then leave.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. On the coming Wednesday, I will have the opportunity to drive into San Antonio (70 miles) and audition the following brands:

Jolida
Shanling
Antique Sound Lab
Creek
Cayin
Rega
Rogue Audio
PS Audio
Niles

among a few others.

I love the way the Shanlings look, and I like the bang for the buck that appear to be had with the Jolidas. I am also intrigued by the tube/ss hybrid amps I have seen on the internet.

As far as interconnects and speaker cables go, I presently use Monster Cable with gold plug in style clips, but not necessarily the higher end stuff.

I am planning to keep my speakers for the foreseeable future, since the $3000 outlay now will dry up my hobby budget for at least two or three years minumum, if not longer. Therefore, I really need to find an amp+pre-amp, or integrated amp plus a cd player that will match well with my Klipsch speakers. I do like these speakers, and when paired with better quality components and better acoustics, they should be just fine. I will also add better cabling.

Are there any opinions on the above brands and how they might meet my needs? Thanks.

Welcome Chap_cat. So your $3000 assumes no change to the speakers right now? One very good thing about those speakers is that they're VERY efficient and you really don't need a lot of power to drive them.

I'd focus on getting a high quality CD/SACD player first, then like a 100 watt integrated amp (you may not need that much power now, but I suspect that you'll upgrade your speakers in the not-too-distant future). Finally, you need to consider upgrading your interconnects and speaker cables. (You didn't tell us what you use).

The CDP and cables have a big impact on listener fatigue. Also, adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot. You may need further treatment after you take some remedial steps. Speaker placement is also huge. (See my review of the Sumiko Speaker Set}.

Look at the A'gon members' Virtual Systems, focusing on simple, but elegant systems.

Ideally you'd find your speakers first and then select a compatable amp next. If you'd "like to keep" your Klipsch forever, then don't worry about this, but if you're thinkin that you might make a move in the relatively new term, then you might think of delaying the amp decision until then.

You start with your sources, connections and room to get rid of listener fatigue, then move to the speakers and amp(s).

Some here will try to sucker you into a fight about tubes vs. SS vs. Class D vs. Class A vs. etc., etc. Don't worry about ANY of that crap and just listen when making your decisions. Any of those technologies will work in most applications when well implemented.

Breath deeply and happy hunting...

Dave