How does the VPI Aries II stand up to current mid priced tables?

Okay, I changed my mind ;-) .

This is of no consequence for @ozzy62, as the Aries 2 requires a platter using the inverted VPI bearing. For the rest of you, particularly those with a sense of intellectual curiosity and a burning desire to know the truth. I offer the following:

 

Way back on 1-23-2012 an Audiogon member posted a question to the community: "Which Is The Best VPI Platter?"

 

One respondent was "brf", well-known long-time VPI enthusiast/expert and moderator of the VPI Forum: Here is his response (posted on 1-25-2012), in his exact words:

 

1- TNT 5: 1/2 Delrin and 1/2 stainless steel (mine measures 7/8" Delrin and 5/8" stainless).

2- TNT Super Platter: 1/3 Delrin and 1/3 stainless steel and 1/3 Delrin.

3- TNT 4: 2/3 Delrin and 1/3 stainless steel (I believe brf meant to say aluminum, as that is what every TNT 4/Aries 1 platter I have seen, including mine, is made of).

4- New Classic Aluminum Platter.

5- TNT Early lead and cork combinations (here brf is referring---I believe---to the 2" Delrin/lead platter found on the TNT 1 and Aries Black Knight).

6- Frosted Acrylic.

 

So the question remains: Why does the VPI website contain mentions of the black "acrylic" platter that was introduced in the Mk.2 version of the HW-19? That question I can't answer.

 

Another question that all the above raises is this: If the black platters that we are discussing were indeed made not of Delrin but instead of Acrylic, why then would Harry eventually come to the conclusion that the "switch" to the frosted white Acrylic platter (introduced on the Aries 2 and TNT 6) was a step backwards in sound quality? If the black of the earlier plastic platter was Acrylic, the "switch" to the frosted white Acrylic platter would be in color only, surely not a cause for a difference in sound quality?

 

Here''s what I know:

1- At the Groovetracer shop in San Jose, CA (makers of excellent Rega upgrade parts) I compared his black Delrin, black Acrylic, and frosted white Acrylic Rega platters. The white Acrylic platter looked just like VPI's white Acrylic platter, the black Delrin platter just like the black plastic section of the VPI Aries 1/TNT 4/5 platters I own. The black Acrylic platter looked just like the acrylic top plate of the HW-19 Mk.3 I own,  and the plinth of the various iterations of the TNT's I have seen in person. Groovetracer makes and offers both Delrin and Acrylic platters because they sound different from one another.

Here's what Groovetracer states on their website about their Delrin platter:

"Delrin is considered the material of choice for record platters by many of today's high end turntable manufactures. There are several reasons for this but the primary consideration is that it shares many of the same properties of the vinyl record (please Groovetracer: LP's are made of PVC, not vinyl ;-). It also carries more mass than the majority of high performance thermoplastics available, which is important in terms of maintaining speed stability."

"The challenge in using Delrin is that it is quite expensive in raw material form and requires extra attention during the manufacturing process."

 

2- At the plastics plant/warehouse/fabricating shop in Portland Oregon I visited a few years back, I held in my hands samples of the raw sheets of the black Acrylic and Delrin they manufacture. The two plastics were VERY different from one another, easily distinguishable. It has nothing to do with any finishing operation: the two materials have very different compositions, textures (internal and external), weight, and sonic properties.

The technical adviser looked at my Aries 1 platter, and told me the black plastic top was made of Delrin. I was deciding whether to have him fabricate an arm mounting board out of Delrin or Acrylic, and decided to go with Acrylic, as that's what VPI used.

 

So, is this horse I've been beating dead yet? ;-)  

Me too.

@melm: When I used the term "solid Delrin" platter, it was in reference to not having a 2-layer construction (aluminum and Delrin, for instance). I’ve never seen the thick (2"?) black platter in person, and have suspected (but did not know for a fact) that THAT platter may have had the lead layer bonded onto its’ bottom.

The HW-19 Mk.4, Aries Black Knight, and and original TNT had that thick black platter, made of---sorry to insist---Delrin. I know Harry and lots of others used the term Acrylic interchangeably with Delrin, but I assure you the black platter material is in fact Delrin, not Acrylic.

At a big commercial plastics warehouse/machining facility in Portland Oregon I took my Aries 1 arm mounting plate into to have duplicated, and took along my aluminum/lead/Delrin platter. They confirmed that the black material was indeed Delrin. They brought out both black Acrylic and Delrin for me to look at, and the Delrin looked and sounded just like the Delrin on my Aries platter. Even raw Delrin has a completely different mass consistency and resonant sonic characteristic than Acrylic, which is inherently glossy and lower in mass. Delrin looks almost like stone, Acrylic obviously man-made.

All the long-time posters on the VPI Forum refer to the black VPI platter as Delrin, which is where I learned of the term. I really like the Delrin-topped VPI platters for their PVC/Delrin interface characteristics, and wouldn’t have a VPI without one. But there are lots of happy VPI owners with the current solid aluminum platters.

 

@melm: Yeah, a lot of people (including reviewers, some of whom are people ;-) think all plastic platters are Acrylic. Not so! If the "plastic" part of a VPI platter is black, it is Delrin, not Acrylic. Go ahead, ask VPI ;-) .

The "plinth" of the TNT tables is indeed black Acrylic, but not the black platters. Remember how shiny the TNT black plinth is, and how "matte" finish is the platter? That's because the plinth is Acrylic, the platter Delrin. You can go to any good plastics shop and compare the two, which I have done. By the way, the machinist in San Jose, Ca who offers those excellent replacement parts for the Rega tables offers both Acrylic and Delrin versions of his Rega platter. They sound different. Delrin is much denser, harder, and more non-resonant than Acrylic. VPI switched to Acrylic to save money, and soon regretted it.

I bought an original HW-19 ("Mk.1") with the original aluminum platter (with a layer of cork-covered lead bonded to its' bottom side) from Brooks Berdan (he preferred the VPI over the Oracle Delphi for the Eminent Technology arm he at the time favoured), and bought the aluminum/lead/Delrin Mk.2 platter when it was introduced in the HW-19 Mk.2. The HW-19 Mk.3 used the same platter, and the final Mk..4 version of the HW-19 had the same solid Delrin platter as the original TNT (and the Aries Black Knight). The Aries 1 platter is the same as that found on the TNT-3 and -4 (7/8" bottom of aluminum with cork-covered lead bonded to it, 3/8" top layer of Delrin). I don't know if the TNT-2 also had that platter, or the same as that of the TNT-1 and Aries Black Knight (solid Delrin).

The TNT-1 through TNT-5 all have a standard bearing, as does the Aries 1. VPI switched to an inverted bearing (and frosted translucent white Acrylic platter) for the Aries 2 and the TNT-6. Confusing, ain't it?  

@melm: Actually, the Aries 1 came with the aluminum/lead/Delrin platter I above described. Honest, I’m looking at mine right now! By the way, the TNT-3 and -4 came with the exact same platter (the TNT-1 and -2 came with the same Delrin platter as the Aries Black Knight). You will recognize Delrin by its black colour.

For the Aries 2, VPI switched to the frosted translucent-white Acrylic platter (and inverted bearing), which has fallen out of favour with both VPI fans and Harry Weisfeld himself.

For the TNT-5, VPI switched to the 15 lb. platter some hard-core VPI aficionados prefer above all others: a bottom layer of stainless steel (5/8" thick), topped with a 7/8" thick layer of Delrin. I know that for a fact: I have one installed on my HW-19 MK.3.

Neither of those two platters may be used on the Aries 2, as both had the non-inverted VPI bearing. The Aries 2 requires a platter employing the inverted bearing, like the Classic platter, or the platter that came after that stock in the TNT-5, the "Super Platter". It is comprised of a stainless steel center, with a layer of Delrin top and bottom. And an inverted bearing.

VPI had the chance years ago. Harry and the owner/designer of Phoenix Engineering Bill Carlin were in discussions about working together, but it blew up. Carlin is not the diplomatic type, and said some things Harry took offense to. That was the end of their proposed collaboration.

The original Phoenix products are long out of production (I got the last 15 watt Eagle), but Carlin developed the current versions that SOTA are making and marketing. SOTA has worked with many VPI owners, advising them on how to install a SOTA motor into the stock VPI motor pods. That enables the current Phoenix products to be used with VPI tables, with excellent results. Audiogoner @slaw has done the install on his VPI, and is very satisfied. 

Congratulations @ozzy62, nice table!

I have an Aries 1, and the only difference between the 1 and 2 is in the platter and its bearing. The 1 is fitted with a 1" outer diameter, stainless steel bearing housing and threaded (for a reflex clamp) spindle. The platter is comprised of 1- a 7/8" thick bottom section of aluminum, with a sheet of cork-covered lead bonded to it’s underside; and 2- a 3/8" thick sheet of black Delrin bonded to its top, for mechanical impedance matching to the PVC of LP’s.

In the Aries 2, Harry Weisfeld switched from the aluminum/lead/Delrin "sandwich" platter to a solid frosted-acrylic platter (2" thick, I believe). He also dropped the "standard" bearing and went with an inverted bearing. VPI still uses inverted bearings in their current line-up, but Harry eventually decided the move to an acrylic platter was a mistake---a step back in terms of sound quality, and now use only metal platters (aluminum I believe, not stainless steel).

Some regular posters on the company’s forum site remain fans of the Aries 1/TNT-3 & 4 platter (all use the same aluminum/lead/Delrin platter described above), as well as the TNT-5 platter, which is a bottom section of 5/8" thick stainless steel (no lead) and a top section of 7/8" thick Delrin. But both platters use the standard 1" diameter bearing, so can’t be swapped for the inverted bearing of the Aries 2, whose housing has a larger outer diameter. But I believe a current VPI aluminum Classic platter can be used in place of the acrylic, as it too uses an inverted bearing

Then there are all the different versions of VPI motor pods, flywheels, and even a rim drive to replace the belt. As far as I know the Aries 1 & 2 had the same motor/pod, the motor itself the same Hurst used in the HW-19 table, and even the various iterations of the TNT.

As for the basic thrust of your post, that I can’t comment on. I’ve heard older tables like the Oracle Delphi in the same system as a TNT (it and the Aries are more alike than different), but that was a long time ago. There are now a lot of mid-priced tables available, all with their own sound it is said. You’re probably going to be hearing from owners of them ;-) .